then it is time for the vast "majority" of the "peace loving" Muslims in this world to stand up against what is happening in the name of their religion instead of dragging dead soldiers through the streets and rejoicing every negative thing that happens to America in this fight.462nd NSP653 wrote:
I agree but it's done on these forums regarding 'dumbass Americans having no knowledge of the rest the world' almost daily.Spark wrote:
I still don't think you should generalize about a group of people who represent about a fifth of the world.
Yes, but my point was it must be human nature to throw generalizations around like horseshoes and hand grenades...only hoping to even be close to a point because those criticizing it often do it in the same breath.
I do agree with you that the extremists endanger all of us who do not share their views and their actions are often deplorable. Many choose not to engage them for whatever reason (fear, lack of resources, whatever...I don't judge them) but for those who do choose to stand and fight, (and this is not limited to the west, many countries around the world fight against terrorism in one way or another) they are always made out to be the bullies. I think that is just wrong.
In my opinion, if you believe that any of the currently active terrorist/extremist groups (not limited to any one religion or ideology) would simply go away if we left them alone or changed our policy....then you are wrong. And that mistake may cost you or someone you care about their life.
[edit]my spelling needed some help[/edit]
I do agree with you that the extremists endanger all of us who do not share their views and their actions are often deplorable. Many choose not to engage them for whatever reason (fear, lack of resources, whatever...I don't judge them) but for those who do choose to stand and fight, (and this is not limited to the west, many countries around the world fight against terrorism in one way or another) they are always made out to be the bullies. I think that is just wrong.
In my opinion, if you believe that any of the currently active terrorist/extremist groups (not limited to any one religion or ideology) would simply go away if we left them alone or changed our policy....then you are wrong. And that mistake may cost you or someone you care about their life.
[edit]my spelling needed some help[/edit]
Last edited by 462nd NSP653 (2006-08-20 17:41:12)
Ladies, here is an example of a "fair and balanced" pov.CameronPoe wrote:
I think radical Islam will die with it's support base - the Israel-Palestine issue and Western intervention in their affairs. Once those issues are rectified the drivers for fundamentalism will largely cease to exist and extremism will gradually decrease to an acceptably miniscule level.lowing wrote:
lowing wrote:
Let me pose a hypothetical at you. Lets say Israel is dismantaled, and we bent to the will of the terrorists. Do you really think it ends there? Do you really think Islamic radicals won't continue there attacks on the world?
If not, where, exactly, do you plan on dawing a line in the sand and say NO MORE??I say we because Israel is our ally and the terrorists have made no small talk in advocating the destruction ofCameronPoe wrote:
Lowing why do keep referring to Israel as 'we'? You are on a completely different wavelength to a lot of Americans and most of Europe there.
anyone that supports Israel. Plus like I suggest above,the dismantaling of Israel will NOT be the end of it.
Now please answer my hypothetical, I really am curious to your answer
1+ Cam
Lets hope that is the case. . . .
Watch it ATG!!......Show no weakness!!ATG wrote:
Ladies, here is an example of a "fair and balanced" pov.CameronPoe wrote:
I think radical Islam will die with it's support base - the Israel-Palestine issue and Western intervention in their affairs. Once those issues are rectified the drivers for fundamentalism will largely cease to exist and extremism will gradually decrease to an acceptably miniscule level.lowing wrote:
I say we because Israel is our ally and the terrorists have made no small talk in advocating the destruction oflowing wrote:
Let me pose a hypothetical at you. Lets say Israel is dismantaled, and we bent to the will of the terrorists. Do you really think it ends there? Do you really think Islamic radicals won't continue there attacks on the world?
If not, where, exactly, do you plan on dawing a line in the sand and say NO MORE??
anyone that supports Israel. Plus like I suggest above,the dismantaling of Israel will NOT be the end of it.
Now please answer my hypothetical, I really am curious to your answer
1+ Cam
If it was, a new era could begin.
I vote we form a New World Order and make our first order of business the abolition of all religion.
That'll fix everything.
I vote we form a New World Order and make our first order of business the abolition of all religion.
That'll fix everything.
Count me in.ATG wrote:
If it was, a new era could begin.
I vote we form a New World Order and make our first order of business the abolition of all religion.
That'll fix everything.
The GREAT ATG HAS SPOKEN!! ........LET US ALL WORSHIP HIM.................oh wait........never mind.sergeriver wrote:
Count me in.ATG wrote:
If it was, a new era could begin.
I vote we form a New World Order and make our first order of business the abolition of all religion.
That'll fix everything.
ATG i also agree that religion should be out lawed because it is the start of a lot of problems, however i would never try to impose my will on removing religion from all our lifes on other people. I also don't group a whole religion with a few groups of extremists, that is just the same as me saying all Americans are stupid when infact only a small minority are, just like in ever other country.
Even without religion there will still be conflict, greed, jealously , one political view verses another.
Humans by their own nature are destructive and aggressive people.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it" Agent K MIB (sorry i had to work the line in somehow )
Humans by their own nature are destructive and aggressive people.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it" Agent K MIB (sorry i had to work the line in somehow )
Last edited by the_hitman_kills (2006-08-21 03:12:54)
If they are real muslims, of course they would support sharia law, its islamic law isnt it?PRiMACORD wrote:
I don't quite understand, are you saying you know Muslims in the US that would support a life under Sharia?ATG wrote:
EDIT, I have known many great people who are ethnically Muslim. This is why it's so sad for me; I know these people.
The ones i know hate terrorists more then the average American and are fully integrated into our society.
If not, please stop saying we are at war with all Muslims. We are at war with a few percent of them, why do the rest have to suffer the humiliation of being associated with such filth?
Do you think there was no terror crap before 9/11 in those countries? 9/11 was just the trigger for the public to wake up. Funny thing is... if all the actions the U.S. are doing are about oil... wtf did they try to do in Somalia then? And again, even if the major oil companies have aquired rights to the oil fields there... should we watch some terrorists take them away from them in the course of achieving total power? And if it's about oil... why are they helping those people build up infrastructure and all? Wouldn't it be easier to just build up some fences (simplified speaking) around their oil fields now that their are in temporary control?sergeriver wrote:
For your information the war in Afghanistan was planned much before 9/11, or do you think they prepared it in 1 month? So, it was not a counter attack. American major oil companies had adquired rights on the oilfields in the middle east. It's all about oil, they don't give a shit (I mean Bush and buddies only) for the oppressed people in Afghanistan, in Iraq or whatever.Vintageologist wrote:
What did the U.S. take from Afghanistan? What did they take from Iraq? I don't see the barrels of oil being carried away? So what else did they take? Desert sand? Hot air? Old Russian technology? Stop believing that conpiracy crap. What are you trying to fight anyway? Do you think it's better not to do anything aginst... just as an example... that Syrian buttface who, as an answer of the acuses made against Syria supporting the Hizbollah, said that he is proud to support them? So you say leave leaders in charge who directly support the killing of innocent civilians by providing money and weapons to terrorist cells? Is that what you want me to believe? If not... tell me what's your point as I don't see any.
Excactly. That's what the problem is... those who say there are Muslims who are not supporting that are forgetting the fact that these people are, as a matter of fact, not real pure Muslims at all, and would also never be accepted as such by the 'real' Muslims, because fact is that if they are integrated to western societies they can by definition not be fully Muslim because Western societies are built on the principles (read: laws) of Christian religion and not Islam.choongy wrote:
If they are real muslims, of course they would support sharia law, its islamic law isnt it?PRiMACORD wrote:
I don't quite understand, are you saying you know Muslims in the US that would support a life under Sharia?ATG wrote:
EDIT, I have known many great people who are ethnically Muslim. This is why it's so sad for me; I know these people.
The ones i know hate terrorists more then the average American and are fully integrated into our society.
If not, please stop saying we are at war with all Muslims. We are at war with a few percent of them, why do the rest have to suffer the humiliation of being associated with such filth?
There were civilisations in the East while the West was just a bunch of scattered tribes, but we still developed faster than them. Just my opinion here, but it seems majority of countries with Christianity as their main religion have done far better then their muslim counterparts.Vespid wrote:
I have a lot of hope for the future.
Just like the Middle East, the west has a history full of torture and executions done under the pretense of religion. Europe has a history rife with war and conquest and intolerance and barbarism. America, like the rest of the world, has a history of Slavery and conquest over the native Americans.
Now we live in relative peace and prosperity--due in large part to the lessons we have learned from these horrible times--and we look at the middle east and aren't able to understand why they seem to be so violent and hateful towards everyone unlike them. I believe that it may be because they are going through the same developmental stages that the west went through.
A serious problem is that current times provide a much more dangerous world in which to go through this stage of development. The west went through this stage without access to modern weapons. Imagine if France and Britain had machine guns during the 100 years war! Imagine if they had chemical weapons during the Crusades! Imagine if Spain had nerve gas during their inquisition!
Thank God that the west developed these weapons over thousands of years, learning in the process the level of danger and destructiveness they can unleash. I believe that the development of more and more deadly weapons throughout our social development has helped tame us and has lead us to think more thouroughly about going to war. I cite the cold war as an example of this. How much more likely would the cold war have become hot if it were not for the threat of total annihilation? The West has experienced the destructive power of this type of weapon and learned that it must never be used. Many countries in the Middle East, however, would probably not give a second thought to detonating a nuclear weapon in London or Paris or Washington DC.
But I have hope for the future that even though the middle east was introduced to this type of warfare before they were socially ready, they are extraordinary people and they will adapt. They will eventually force themselves into catching up socially with their technology. We must be patient with them as a people, not judgemental or arrogant. Our ancestors in The United States did not fight for our independence from Britain the very first time Britain was despotic torwards them. For hundreds of years our ancestors tolerated the rule of Britain. It will probably take hundreds of years for the people of the countries in the Middle East to do the same. We must pray for them. If we only pray for our friends, then how will our enemies come to know peace? And of course, we must remain vigilant with them to protect ourselves until our patience and prayers pay off.
For these reasons, I support the effort in Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of what naysayers claim our president's real intentions are. Just like a tiny crystal of ice can help water freeze more quickly, we may be creating a tiny crystal of structure around which a more civilized society can develop much more quickly than it did in the West.
Right, i think that most muslims we see here have been brought up in western society with Christian based principles. Therefore they can't really associate with those in Middle East, having had a completely different upbringing. Either that or the muslims who live here are just biding there time, when deep down they want to topple us.Vintageologist wrote:
Excactly. That's what the problem is... those who say there are Muslims who are not supporting that are forgetting the fact that these people are, as a matter of fact, not real pure Muslims at all, and would also never be accepted as such by the 'real' Muslims, because fact is that if they are integrated to western societies they can by definition not be fully Muslim because Western societies are built on the principles (read: laws) of Christian religion and not Islam.choongy wrote:
If they are real muslims, of course they would support sharia law, its islamic law isnt it?PRiMACORD wrote:
I don't quite understand, are you saying you know Muslims in the US that would support a life under Sharia?
The ones i know hate terrorists more then the average American and are fully integrated into our society.
If not, please stop saying we are at war with all Muslims. We are at war with a few percent of them, why do the rest have to suffer the humiliation of being associated with such filth?
Religion helps.the_hitman_kills wrote:
Even without religion there will still be conflict, greed, jealously , one political view verses another.
Humans by their own nature are destructive and aggressive people.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it" Agent K MIB (sorry i had to work the line in somehow )
Somalia was Clinton's affair, so it has nothing to do with these 2 wars Bush started. I think Clinton went to Somalia, with the hope of helping people for nothing. I don't buy Bush doing anything free.Vintageologist wrote:
Do you think there was no terror crap before 9/11 in those countries? 9/11 was just the trigger for the public to wake up. Funny thing is... if all the actions the U.S. are doing are about oil... wtf did they try to do in Somalia then? And again, even if the major oil companies have aquired rights to the oil fields there... should we watch some terrorists take them away from them in the course of achieving total power? And if it's about oil... why are they helping those people build up infrastructure and all? Wouldn't it be easier to just build up some fences (simplified speaking) around their oil fields now that their are in temporary control?sergeriver wrote:
For your information the war in Afghanistan was planned much before 9/11, or do you think they prepared it in 1 month? So, it was not a counter attack. American major oil companies had adquired rights on the oilfields in the middle east. It's all about oil, they don't give a shit (I mean Bush and buddies only) for the oppressed people in Afghanistan, in Iraq or whatever.Vintageologist wrote:
What did the U.S. take from Afghanistan? What did they take from Iraq? I don't see the barrels of oil being carried away? So what else did they take? Desert sand? Hot air? Old Russian technology? Stop believing that conpiracy crap. What are you trying to fight anyway? Do you think it's better not to do anything aginst... just as an example... that Syrian buttface who, as an answer of the acuses made against Syria supporting the Hizbollah, said that he is proud to support them? So you say leave leaders in charge who directly support the killing of innocent civilians by providing money and weapons to terrorist cells? Is that what you want me to believe? If not... tell me what's your point as I don't see any.
They COULD come from any background and religion but - they are'nt .LostFate wrote:
9/11 was obviously a very bad thing and the people responsible should be harshly punished BUT retribution should'nt be taken out on the entire islamic world, most of them are decent normal people just like you an me..
Its a small group of people with a large amount of screws lose an they can come from any backround and any religion not just islam..
Lets take it out on the terrorists not the religion they hide behind.
You got that right, Ill stand and fight. Your also right on In our own ranks, Mainly on this forum LOL.Spumantiii wrote:
I know of the Taliban performing those kinds of executions, is it that bad elsewhere too? I had no idea it had gotten that bad. I just know for sure the Taliban did those things, is it still happening?ATG wrote:
http://i8.tinypic.com/24oxfl0.jpg
Excluding civilian murdered by soldiers during wartime these have got to be the most absurd executions of all time.
They are gay; hang them.
They brought Bibles to Saudi Arabia; behead them.
She went to classes to learn to read; shoot her.
This my friends, is a preview of life under Sharia ( that's Islamic Law, for you unschooled types ).
Islamic led governments such as those in Iran, Saudia Arabia, Niger, Pakistan, Afganistan, Eygpt and many others have put people to death for mundane acts such as those listed above.
What kind of animal would shoot a woman in the head for wanting to read?
What kind of man could put a noose around another mans neck because they don't like girls?
What kind of a government could sanction and carry out executions of people in this modern time for religious beliefs?
What kind of human fecal matter would destroy thousand year old statues of Budha because it wasn't an Islamic icon.
The answer to all of the above is of course, Muslim.
9-11 and terrorism aside, these are all primary reasons why the West is at war with Islam. Make no mistake, these people will not stop until you either convert to Islam and live under Sharia as a second class citizen, or die.
The United States can't say it, but I can call a spade a spade. This is a crusade, that we must win, and this ideology must be crushed before, like a poisonous cancer, it spreads and we are all doomed.
We are at war with Islam, and say it's a fight we need to win.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/7/22/102249/246
http://therhema.blogspot.com/2006/04/ex … di_11.html
http://www.rawa.org/murder-w.htm
What I mean to say is I don't think all of Islam is that extreme, I do know the Taliban are.
I'd join you in a fight against extremism, not necessarily all of Islam though
more accurately we are at war with extremism, which exists within our own ranks as well, Regardless, it does disgust me too.
Sorry for the delayed response.CameronPoe wrote:
Maybe you are blind and deaf to moderate muslims or maybe the US media sanitizes reporting so you don't hear about organisations like these:GATOR591957 wrote:
My problem for those of you who feel it is just extremists. Where are the Muslim's denouncing these atrocities. I'll tell you where they are, hiding. So if you only have individuals shouting at the tops of their voices kill the infidels, with no one objecting, what should we believe? I really hate to say it but I may have to agree with the original post. Maybe it is time to put a stop to this. I would also agree that it is a time of crusades.
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/03/Opini … _aga.shtml
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_art … st+terror+
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re … p?ID=20933
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010201.php
http://islamonline.net/English/News/200 … le05.shtml
http://muslimsagainstterror.blogspot.com/
STOP FUCKING GENERALISING AND DEMONISING. DO YOU WANT A MUSLIM HOLOCAUST?!? Is that what you really want? Will that make you content?
What I am saying is no, we in the US do not hear or see Muslim's admonishing these atrocities. We don't see it from people who have come to the US for refuge nor do we see anything overseas. I'm really rather tired of the US paying for the liberation of a country that to me seems like it does not want liberated. These "extremists" seem to me to be the majority. Do I want a holocaust, I'm not sure. Do I believe this philosophy can be defeated through education, peace and understanding, no. So where does that leave us. They want a war, let's give it to them, but let's play by their rules. Don't worry about women and children or innocent civilians, they don't. To them our weakness is we will wilt in the face of tragedy. If they want a war, let's do it, but forewarn the public this is going to get very ugly!
What idiot actually thinks Islam is going to take over the world. Seriously, be honest and logical. Do you see Islam taking over the world. Do you see anything taking over the world. Did you even think that the Nazi's could possibly take over the world. Even the U.S government wouldn't spew out such bullshit for propaganda purposes. Must be some other organisation that's told a select few that Islam is gonna take over the world. Dumb-arses.
I was watching c-span, yes, c-span and they were interviewing the guy who helped with the documentary "Islam: What the West Needs to Know". Heres a link to what its about and i think it pwns islam. I have a better idea than a giant solar panel and a holocaust, lets do a mass education of all muslims to fight terrorism.
http://www.whatthewestneedstoknow.com/a … roject.asp
http://www.whatthewestneedstoknow.com/a … roject.asp
or alternativly you can say countries that get regular rain fall thus allowing us to provide enough to eat easily and allowing us to spend our time on other things other than farming for survival... just another possible reason why we are better off.choongy wrote:
There were civilisations in the East while the West was just a bunch of scattered tribes, but we still developed faster than them. Just my opinion here, but it seems majority of countries with Christianity as their main religion have done far better then their muslim counterparts.Vespid wrote:
I have a lot of hope for the future.
Just like the Middle East, the west has a history full of torture and executions done under the pretense of religion. Europe has a history rife with war and conquest and intolerance and barbarism. America, like the rest of the world, has a history of Slavery and conquest over the native Americans.
Now we live in relative peace and prosperity--due in large part to the lessons we have learned from these horrible times--and we look at the middle east and aren't able to understand why they seem to be so violent and hateful towards everyone unlike them. I believe that it may be because they are going through the same developmental stages that the west went through.
A serious problem is that current times provide a much more dangerous world in which to go through this stage of development. The west went through this stage without access to modern weapons. Imagine if France and Britain had machine guns during the 100 years war! Imagine if they had chemical weapons during the Crusades! Imagine if Spain had nerve gas during their inquisition!
Thank God that the west developed these weapons over thousands of years, learning in the process the level of danger and destructiveness they can unleash. I believe that the development of more and more deadly weapons throughout our social development has helped tame us and has lead us to think more thouroughly about going to war. I cite the cold war as an example of this. How much more likely would the cold war have become hot if it were not for the threat of total annihilation? The West has experienced the destructive power of this type of weapon and learned that it must never be used. Many countries in the Middle East, however, would probably not give a second thought to detonating a nuclear weapon in London or Paris or Washington DC.
But I have hope for the future that even though the middle east was introduced to this type of warfare before they were socially ready, they are extraordinary people and they will adapt. They will eventually force themselves into catching up socially with their technology. We must be patient with them as a people, not judgemental or arrogant. Our ancestors in The United States did not fight for our independence from Britain the very first time Britain was despotic torwards them. For hundreds of years our ancestors tolerated the rule of Britain. It will probably take hundreds of years for the people of the countries in the Middle East to do the same. We must pray for them. If we only pray for our friends, then how will our enemies come to know peace? And of course, we must remain vigilant with them to protect ourselves until our patience and prayers pay off.
For these reasons, I support the effort in Iraq and Afghanistan, regardless of what naysayers claim our president's real intentions are. Just like a tiny crystal of ice can help water freeze more quickly, we may be creating a tiny crystal of structure around which a more civilized society can develop much more quickly than it did in the West.
I don't think anyone feels Islam is going to take over the world. I do think the extreme Islamic people threaten our safety and way of life.Mekstizzle wrote:
What idiot actually thinks Islam is going to take over the world. Seriously, be honest and logical. Do you see Islam taking over the world. Do you see anything taking over the world. Did you even think that the Nazi's could possibly take over the world. Even the U.S government wouldn't spew out such bullshit for propaganda purposes. Must be some other organisation that's told a select few that Islam is gonna take over the world. Dumb-arses.
Life under islamic law would be pleasant. Everyone would be obligated to give significantly to charity and violence would be prohibited except in self defense. Every offender would be apportioned a second chance and punishment after which would be strict.
Considering Islam is based wholly around the Koran, I am assuming 'Islamic law' would be directly resembling the teachings therein.
Considering Islam is based wholly around the Koran, I am assuming 'Islamic law' would be directly resembling the teachings therein.