UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6896
This thread is to take the discussion of the origin of the universe out of the 'Dinosaurs and Creationism' thread.  I'm hoping it won't be a "God did it.." "Oh no He didn't" thread, more a chance to look at the state of current scientific thinking and argue about it

I have a perspective which is sort of along the lines of the Big Bang/Big Crunch theory.  Just as it people use to think that the earth was the centre of the universe and the sun revolves around it, I think that saying that space/time began with the Big Bang is the modern day equivalent.

I also think that there are many Big Bangs/Crunches stretching for infinity in every direction, and that each will exhibit different properties (e.g. some will never crunch and go on expanding forever and some will crunch over and over on the same spot).  This link explains the difference between the two types of Big Bang: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/questi … number=248

This would explain why some observers claim the universe is expanding faster than expected, there would be forces acting from the large amount of mass existing outside our own universe (that which we see).

I'll start this thread with a theory: Is assuming that time began with the Big Bang a legitimate supposition, or an assumption born of the human ego?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6824|SE London

Great idea for a thread!!!

Big up UnOriginalNuttah!

I am not familliar with the multiple Big Bang theory, it must be quite new - I will therefore not express any opinions on it until I have researched the topic thoroughly. It seems to me to be quite a radical theory.

In answer to your initial supposition that time did not begin with the Big Bang, I would suggest that time and space are more closely linked than you seem to believe. Minkowski first introduced the concept of spacetime which is defined as a curved (or flat in special relativity), 4 dimensional, Lorentzian continuum that does not conform to the rules of Euclidian geometry. Without space, time cannot exist. Before the Big Bang (in the area inhabited by our universe at least, in the case of the theory of multiple Big Bangs - which would complicate things enormously and I cannot see how this theory can fit in with relativity) there was no space and therefore no time (at least that is what the most commonly accepted theories state - I don't come up with these ideas, I struggle to even understand some of them).

To discuss the Big Bang theory we must first take into account the evolution of successful physical theories throughout history. The most succesful of which have been those theories based on the concepts of dynamics. The specification of how a physical system(let us assume that the universe is a physical system) will develop with time, given the physical state of the system at one particular time.

The theories behind dynamics are many and varied. The most important ideas however are Newtonian dynamics, Keplers laws of geometric motions and above all the laws of thermodynamics (1. Conservation of energy within a system. 2. Heat flows from a hotter to colder body).

I will assume that everyone contributing to this thread knows, at least, the basics of these laws.
Since a lot of the ideas behind the creation and evolution of the universe deal with obtaining finite solutions to problems that have factors that may be infinite then a basic understanding of quantum mechanics will help, particularly schroedingers wave equation.

As modern theories go spacetime did indeed begin with the Big Bang. It is important to grasp the concept of all space being formed in this manner, not just all matter (theorists do disagree about this fact but the majority believe that if the universe is indeed finite, then beyond the universe there would be no space - nothing, not a vacuum, nothing.

Theoreticians often try to distinguish between open and closed systems. This is an important distintion when entropy is an issue, as it is with understanding the energies within the universe. A closed system cannot be affected by energies beyond it in any way, a closed system cannot therefore exist, except of course in the case of a finite universe that is being considered in it's entirety. Time-asymmetry in the 2nd law can be explained by these external influences. Even if the universe is infinite, as some believe, it can be considered as a whole for the sake of being a single system. We shall call the system (universe) U.

Treating the universe as a whole brings up issues that need to be explained through cosmology. Understanding the basics of general relativity (if you don't know much about general relativity read wiki (or even better a book about it), it is quite interesting) is important for this, for example gravitation should NOT be regarded as a force, but as spacetime curvature in accordance with Einsteins principle of general convariance. It is necessary for us to describe the universe with no specifcally chosen time coordinate with respect to which the universe is supposed to evolve. As I have stated earlier a dynamic model of a physical system, is based upon temporal evolution - therefore we can represent the universe as a point x
moving through phase-space P. Every location of x will stand for a spatial description of the system at a single point in time. A bigger picture of what is going on can be obtained by taking a more relativistic view of the system (universe), but it makes everything far more complicated. There is (I'm not going to bother explaining it so you'll have to take my word for it) a naturally defined time coordinate that can be obtained for the cosmological models in question, we shall call this time coordinate t. The whole universe can be considered to be evolving with respect to t. A phase-space Pu can describe the broad totality of possible universes, with all their evolutions dependent on classical dynamical equations. Each point of Pu describes the all matter within the universe U at time t as well as the distribution of continuous fields, such as gravity. This means that the universes spatial geometry and it's rate of change  will be shown by the location of x within Pu.
As I have already stated in another thread Pu will be infinite-dimensional, regardless of whether of not U is infinite. This is also a feature of other fields such as electromagnetism. It becomes difficult to define entropy within a system such as this, since each phase-space region V will be of infinite volume. Using ideas from quantum (field) theory finite answers can be obtained from the phase-space volumes with reference to systems that are appropriately bounded in energy and spatial dimension. Unfortunately to date I am unaware of any theory of quantum gravity, but this does not matter too much in exploring the question of the 2nd law.
The entropy increase in the 2nd law is not just a necessary by product of the universes expansion, since the actual entropy of the universe would increase in line with it's expansion. The dynamics of general relativity are described equally well by the motion of point x within Pu as all other physical processes. Phase space simply exists and does not in any way grow with time as Pu is independent of time. Since all states within Pu are dynamically accessible to the universe (or universes) there can be no 'entropy ceilling'.



Right - that's enough thinking for one night, I'll write some more in the morning. Hopefully then I'll get onto the entropies involved in the Big Crunch using Bekenstein-Hawking entropy formula - after a bit about black holes and singularities - because they are very important in out understanding of energies in spacetime.

Bedtime...
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7009|Cambridge (UK)
God did it!
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7009|Cambridge (UK)

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

God did it!
No he didn't!
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7009|Cambridge (UK)

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

God did it!
No he didn't!


(Just thought I'd get it out of the way for ya...)

now on with the serious discussion...
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6908|NT, like Mick Dundee

Big bang theory doesn't work. Try M theory and String theory, they look to be much closer to the mark. Somebody posted a 50min doco that was the first episode in a series called the Elegant Universe which goes through alot of this stuff (including why the Big Bang theory doesn't work). From PBS, available on video google. Just do a search for the Elegant Universe or NOVA and it should come up as one of the results.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6772|Global Command
Our time began with our big bang.
DonFck
Hibernator
+3,227|6874|Finland

Bang!





sorry..
I need around tree fiddy.
AllmightyOz
Member
+50|6729|United States - Ohio
I think the big bang theory is much more believeable than creationism, but there are some things I cannot have not found the answers too:

Where does one assume the energy came from to start the initial bang?

Where was the matter located before the bang?

Did the bang create the different elements or were they all compressed into one ball of matter?

"matter is neither created or destroyed", so where did everything come from?

+1 to anyone that can answer all of those questions.

Last edited by AllmightyOz (2006-08-14 00:33:53)

S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6761|Montucky
42
CookieMonster117
Member
+0|6877
I made the universe and that big bang was my ass.
AllmightyOz
Member
+50|6729|United States - Ohio

CookieMonster117 wrote:

I made the universe and that big bang was my ass.
Are you..... Timothy Leary????
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6772|Global Command

AllmightyOz wrote:

I think the big bang theory is much more believeable than creationism, but there are some things I cannot have not found the answers too:
Where does one assume the energy came from to start the initial bang?
From other universes colliding together
Where was the matter located before the bang?
In one of the 11 dimensions according to the current latest theories.
Did the bang create the different elements or were they all compressed into one ball of matter?
Heat, friction and other energies cause new elements to be created. There was a moment in time when things COULD be created, and that was when the elements were scattered and mixed, in the big bang.                         
"matter is neither created or destroyed", so where did everything come from?
See your second questions answers as they are the same question.
+1 to anyone that can answer all of those questions.

Last edited by ATG (2006-08-14 00:44:32)

CookieMonster117
Member
+0|6877

AllmightyOz wrote:

CookieMonster117 wrote:

I made the universe and that big bang was my ass.
Are you..... Timothy Leary????
No...... Are You?????
AllmightyOz
Member
+50|6729|United States - Ohio
No. Do you know who he is?
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6908|NT, like Mick Dundee

String theory ends this thread.

If you want answers, go read about it. Gravitons are crazy.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|6998|United States of America
There was a bang and things were made. That's the simplest you'll find it in.
Aprilia
Member
+0|6955

[1FR]S3v3N wrote:

42
lol very funny
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6896

Flecco wrote:

String theory ends this thread.

If you want answers, go read about it. Gravitons are crazy.
Which variation on string theory, or do you mean the unifed version?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

Adding extra dimensions doesn't actually account for where matter originally came from, merely it's properties after the big bang.  Or for that matter energy.  It seems to me it merely attempts to explain a few properties of phenomenon that have been observed.

Mr. Grape seems to be taking the 'it's from another dimension' approach, so answer this:  Where does the matter originating from one of the other 11 (10,26?) dimensions come from?
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6917|Canberra, AUS

Flecco wrote:

Big bang theory doesn't work. Try M theory and String theory, they look to be much closer to the mark. Somebody posted a 50min doco that was the first episode in a series called the Elegant Universe which goes through alot of this stuff (including why the Big Bang theory doesn't work). From PBS, available on video google. Just do a search for the Elegant Universe or NOVA and it should come up as one of the results.
I love the string theory too but it has its problems

1. No one's ever heard tell of ANYTHING like a 'string'. Either they're too small, live in other dimensions (which doesn't fit the current theories), or simply don't exist.

2. The theories are just way, way, way too complicated. Remember Einstein? Remember E=MCsquared? How did he come up with those? Basically he just selected the simplest answer from the choices he had. It seems that physics - and especially particle and quantum physics - is moving away from that.

3. There is far, far, FAR more evidence for the alternative explanation - the Standard Model of Particle Physics, than either string theory or M theory (which is fundementally just an offshoot). Although that's not saying the standard is theory is right. Just looking at it makes your head spin. It has NINETEEN free parameters, just for particle mass. That doesn't count NEUTRINO mass which adds another 10 or so . That means there's a lot of experimenting, and a lot of guesswork in there. The best way to explain that is with the 'Higgs boson' which - apart from giving particles mass - doesn't seem to do anything or be detectable. Plus, there is not the tiniest hint of an explanation as to why we aren't floating off into space, and instead are nice and comfy on the ground.

So there's a lot of stuff to fix up here. Both have big problems.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6824|SE London

Flecco wrote:

Big bang theory doesn't work. Try M theory and String theory, they look to be much closer to the mark. Somebody posted a 50min doco that was the first episode in a series called the Elegant Universe which goes through alot of this stuff (including why the Big Bang theory doesn't work). From PBS, available on video google. Just do a search for the Elegant Universe or NOVA and it should come up as one of the results.
String theory does not disagree in essence with the theories concerning the Big Bang, just with relativity, which is much more mainstream and I believe to be true - I reckon String theory has not yet been refined enough and when it has been it will be found that aspects of this model fit with currently accepted models.

The series Elegant Universe is simplification of the book of the same name, which doesn't go into much depth anyway. Few scientists believe that changes to the framework of quantum physics are neccesary, instead they argue in favour of strange sounding concepts like the need for extra dimensions in spacetime and for single point particles to be replaced by extended 'strings' or higher-dimensional structures such as branes.

The big problem with current String theory is that it is purely mathematical. Almost all highly successful theories in physics have been dynamical and the fact that scientists are even considering radical theories, like String theory, is a testament to the success of the theories of general relativity and quantum mechanics. These dynamic theories are a more solid basis for discussing and modelling events like the Big Bang.

Hopefully String theory will provide a theory of quantum gravity. If it does disprove general relativity in any way in future then a lot of our models and understanding of the universe will change drastically.
There have already been ideas involving supersymmetry amalgamated with Einstein's theories and I believe that an accepted model somewhere between String theory and relativity will be found (see theory of supergravity).

Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-08-14 05:20:08)

Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6824|SE London

AllmightyOz wrote:

I think the big bang theory is much more believeable than creationism, but there are some things I cannot have not found the answers too:

Where does one assume the energy came from to start the initial bang?

Where was the matter located before the bang?

Did the bang create the different elements or were they all compressed into one ball of matter?

"matter is neither created or destroyed", so where did everything come from?

+1 to anyone that can answer all of those questions.
For a start, no one can conclusively answer any of your questions. There are many theories concerning most of these questions and many of those theories are mutually exclusive. The Omega point described in theories by Tipler in 1997 is concerned with many of these issues.

It has also been suggested that quantum fluctuations in the initial matter density in the Big Bang could be responsible for matierial irregularities, such as gravity condensations that could yield galaxies containing sizeable black holes.

The most effective way of looking at this problem is concerning the entropy of the universe as a system. Which unfortunately cannot explain anything prior to the Big Bang. There are theories about what happened before the Big Bang, but they are not based enough in fact for me to consider them valid.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6908|NT, like Mick Dundee

Spark wrote:

Flecco wrote:

Big bang theory doesn't work. Try M theory and String theory, they look to be much closer to the mark. Somebody posted a 50min doco that was the first episode in a series called the Elegant Universe which goes through alot of this stuff (including why the Big Bang theory doesn't work). From PBS, available on video google. Just do a search for the Elegant Universe or NOVA and it should come up as one of the results.
I love the string theory too but it has its problems

1. No one's ever heard tell of ANYTHING like a 'string'. Either they're too small, live in other dimensions (which doesn't fit the current theories), or simply don't exist.

2. The theories are just way, way, way too complicated. Remember Einstein? Remember E=MCsquared? How did he come up with those? Basically he just selected the simplest answer from the choices he had. It seems that physics - and especially particle and quantum physics - is moving away from that.

3. There is far, far, FAR more evidence for the alternative explanation - the Standard Model of Particle Physics, than either string theory or M theory (which is fundementally just an offshoot). Although that's not saying the standard is theory is right. Just looking at it makes your head spin. It has NINETEEN free parameters, just for particle mass. That doesn't count NEUTRINO mass which adds another 10 or so . That means there's a lot of experimenting, and a lot of guesswork in there. The best way to explain that is with the 'Higgs boson' which - apart from giving particles mass - doesn't seem to do anything or be detectable. Plus, there is not the tiniest hint of an explanation as to why we aren't floating off into space, and instead are nice and comfy on the ground.

So there's a lot of stuff to fix up here. Both have big problems.
That is why they call it theoretical physics. . Hoping that lab in America or SINE manage to get a photo of a graviton slipping into another dimension. That could possibly be...

a) The sickest looking photo ever with some crazy colors or...
b) Be a rather boring and plain photo which is a big dissapointment...
c) Not be a photo at all but readings from some sort of instrument...
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6896

Bertster7 wrote:

The most effective way of looking at this problem is concerning the entropy of the universe as a system. Which unfortunately cannot explain anything prior to the Big Bang. There are theories about what happened before the Big Bang, but they are not based enough in fact for me to consider them valid.
But that's exactly what string theory attempts to do.  It just puts it down fluctuations with a 'parallel dimension'.  It adds an unnecessary level of complexity in my opinion:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1270726.stm wrote:

The action of the Universe takes place in five-dimensional space. Before the Big Bang occurred the Universe consisted of two perfectly flat four-dimensional surfaces.

One of these sheets is our Universe; the other, a "hidden" parallel universe.

According to the Princeton researchers, random fluctuations in this unseen companion universe caused it to distort and reach towards our Universe.

The floater "splatted" into our Universe and the energy of the collision was transformed into the matter and energy of our Universe in a Big Bang.
All that talk of splatting floaters sounds like a load of shit to me

If there are random energy fluctations occuring between the two flat 4-dimensional spaces then why could the same fluctuations not occur within a single flat 4-dimensional space?  Why could fluctionations not reach the density required to create matter, which would draw more matter/energy due to gravity?  Why is a parallel universe needed?  Occam's Razor leads me to believe that 'parallel universe' part of string theory is a scam to make it all sound a lot more interesting and get some lovely funding.
Darkhelmet
cereal killer
+233|6993|the middle of nowhere
God did do it.

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