BF2S Forums How do dinosaurs and creationism co-exist?

Many Creationists say that Dinosaurs and other fossils people find are merely tests of faith which God has placed for us.
Bullshit in my opinion, but at least they have a credible, (but un-provable,) explanation.

Bertster7 wrote:

I believe the general opinion of the scientific community is that the universe is finite, just very, very big.
This falls in line with the Big Bang theory and the idea that the universe has expanded from a single point at a finite rate.

You're talking about the width of the debris from the big bang.  Infinite space has nothing to do with the current group of galaxys formed by the known big bang.  I'm talking about the void beyond what is known when I say space is of infinite dimensions.  Even if there is some kind of 'hall of mirror' or wraparound effect, the dimensions as far as the Law of Gravitation are concerned would still be the infinity required to create infinite potential energy, especially due to expansion on a infinite timescale. See quote below.

If the universe does not exist simply as a byproduct of it's non-existance (e.g. the infinite potential/tensile energy of nothingness) then who created God?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite#Infinity_in_cosmology wrote:

Infinity in cosmology

An intriguing question is whether actual infinity exists in our physical universe: Are there infinitely many stars? Does the universe have infinite volume? Does space "go on forever"? This is an important open question of cosmology. Note that the question of being infinite is logically separate from the question of having boundaries. The two-dimensional surface of the Earth, for example, is finite, yet has no edge. By walking/sailing/driving straight long enough, you'll return to the exact spot you started from. The universe, at least in principle, might have a similar topology; if you fly your space ship straight ahead long enough, perhaps you would eventually revisit your starting point.

If the universe is indeed ever expanding as science suggests then you could never get back to your starting point even on an infinite time scale.

There may have been other big bangs which are billions to the power of billions of light years away or further, and  it may well be that they are not visible at a distance because of the gravity well they would create.  Who knows, maybe one day in a billion billion billion years the debris field from another big bang may intersect this one.  I'm basing all this on my understanding of the laws of physics which is fairly limited, although I'm not aware of any current theories which prove the idea of multiple big bangs impossible.

Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-08-13 12:07:54)

JaMDuDe wrote:

Atheism seems kind of like how you guys describe God. "You cant prove or disprove him, thats what religion relies on". You cant prove or disprove there are trillions of other universes and thats what atheism relies on. To current knowledge we are the only universe and atheism relies on the inability to prove/disprove it.

I agree.  But it takes more balls to be atheist given what the alleged consequences are if you're wrong.

To me adding God to the whole 'where did the universe come from' question just raises the question 'who made God' and 'who made the thing that made God' and so on for infinity.

JaMDuDe wrote:

God doesnt need a creator. He has always been and always will be. Hes not limited to the universe he created.

I'd say the universe doesn't need a creator, it has always been and always will be.  Mine has one more level of simplicity.  God doesn't need a creator, and neither does the universe.

Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-08-13 12:32:22)

Actually, I'd agree with the first line of how the universe was created according to the Bible...

=http://www.beliefnet.com/story/9/story_935_1.html
The first line of the Gospel according to John in the New Testament says, "In the beginning was the Word." In the original Greek language, it was: "In the beginning was the logos." It doesn't say God. So what does this passage refer to? In the beginning was WHAT? Logos can mean word, verb, law, fundamental principle, energy, and so forth.

..but my version reads "In the beginning was the fundamental principles of physics, everything else was made up by people as an excuse for world domination."

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Actually, I'd agree with the first line of how the universe was created according to the Bible...

=http://www.beliefnet.com/story/9/story_935_1.html
The first line of the Gospel according to John in the New Testament says, "In the beginning was the Word." In the original Greek language, it was: "In the beginning was the logos." It doesn't say God. So what does this passage refer to? In the beginning was WHAT? Logos can mean word, verb, law, fundamental principle, energy, and so forth.

..but my version reads "In the beginning was the fundamental principles of physics, everything else was made up by people as an excuse for world domination."

Actually John 1:1 reads "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So it does say God.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-08-13 12:52:29)

You cant just take one translation of one verse and base all your beliefs around it. Other parts of the bible show that God is intelligent, conscious, and loving. Those things cant be fulfilled by equations.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

I believe the general opinion of the scientific community is that the universe is finite, just very, very big.
This falls in line with the Big Bang theory and the idea that the universe has expanded from a single point at a finite rate.

You're talking about the width of the debris from the big bang.  Infinite space has nothing to do with the current group of galaxys formed by the known big bang.  I'm talking about the void beyond what is known when I say space is of infinite dimensions.  Even if there is some kind of 'hall of mirror' or wraparound effect, the dimensions as far as the Law of Gravitation are concerned would still be the infinity required to create infinite potential energy, especially due to expansion on a infinite timescale. See quote below.

If the universe does not exist simply as a byproduct of it's non-existance (e.g. the infinite potential/tensile energy of nothingness) then who created God?

Well it depends on which theories you look at.
Many theories state that the universe may be spatially finite, in which case would be a closed system and subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The Phase Space (Pu) of the universe will be infinite-dimensional whether or not this (the universe(U) being spatially finite) is the case. This causes problems with the definition of entropy within such a system, as each phase space region (V) will be of infinite volume. This problem can be addressed in theory by using ideas fundamental to quantum theory - this allows finite answers to be obtained from such systems. The mechanics of these equations are a little beyond my understanding, but I see how they could work (in that mathematical sense can be made from the notion that some boxes are immensely bigger than others, even if some of these boxes and their associated entropies are infinite). It is in fact possible to describe in some sense the universe as a point (x) moving along a curve (Lamda) in (Pu). If the curve is parametrized by the time coordinate (t) then the curve (Lamda) will enter bigger and bigger boxes as time progresses.

Nor do modern theorists believe that the Big Bang occurred at a singular point. Rather as a boundary moving in an arc from a singualrity. This can be shown through use of conformal diagrams because they make the causality properties of spacetime particularly manifest.

I understand it does all get very complicated and I have tried not to overcomplicate things too much in my description, which may not be entirely satisfactory to you, but I believe does at least put into context the link between the Big Bang, the concept of finite spacetime and the importance of entropy within any such theories.

*edit* I should really have used italics instead of parentheses, oh well not changing it now.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-08-13 18:00:30)

There could have been a creator. No theory has ever suggested anything  to the contrary, although I believe the universe was created through a 'random' (in effect not actually random at all as the whole thing would have to be extraordinarily precise) series of events leading to a sufficient quantity of energy for the Big Bang to occur.

If indeed a creator did set these events in motion, to do which they would have to disturb a very precise location in the precursor to spacetime, which based on the assumption we are living in a 10 to the 80 baryon universe and a value of 10 to the 8 for the entropy per baryon in 2.7K radiation : the volume of the area that would need to be 'pin pricked' would be one part in 10 to the 10 to the 101 of the phase space of the modern universe. That's a VERY precise point.

This thread is not, however, about the existence, or not, of a creator. It is about creationism, which is the 'theory'/strory that God created the world (and hence the universe) in 7 days. This is known not to be the case.
I also find it extremely hard to fathom why it would take an entity of infinite power 7 days to create the universe. Surely if God was truely omnipotent He would have created it instantaneously.

Let me emphasise again that Creationism is NOT the belief in a Creator, but the literal belief in the events described in Genesis, 7 days to create the would, Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden etc. Which is nonsense.

Does anyone disagree with that statement?

JaMDuDe wrote:

I know, but you were just saying "if God made the universe then who made God" and he doesnt need a creator.

Then why does the universe need a creator?

JaMDuDe wrote:

The universe doesnt need a creator. The big bang shows there was a beginning, and nature shows the signs of intelligence, and we have a book like the bible that points to a creator.

The Bible is a great prop for bandying words with another Christian, but will hardly move an atheist.

EVieira wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

The universe doesnt need a creator. The big bang shows there was a beginning, and nature shows the signs of intelligence, and we have a book like the bible that points to a creator.

The Bible is a great prop for bandying words with another Christian, but will hardly move an atheist.

The Bible isn't there to move atheists. The Bible has many great lessons, specially the New Testament. Lessons of peace, forgivness and love. Written at a time when the world was much more ruthless and lawless that it is now, it pointed the way to a better civilization. Alot of what we call civil manners and moral today is because of religion.

Even an atheist can read, understand and see the greatness of a book written so long ago, and still be atheist.

Maybe as moral guidelines. Not as a scientific document.

Does anyone here really believe God created the world in 7 days with the garden of Eden and all that????