you've been around these forums longer than I. Allow me to introduce you to the Search button at the top there.
I hunted the dinosaurs to extinction
i signed up ages ago but then forgot about it...lmao and i know i know the search button lol
Within the flora group of Bee Orchids, there are some species that can only be pollinated by a very specific bee species. They achieve this by having structures which have a similar colour, pattern, shape, size and smell to the bee itself. This can still be explained by evolution but imo it requires deeper consideration of the theory. Easy to cross over the line and believe such a phenomenon was planned and designed. The sooner we start admiring nature for what it is, the sooner we may achieve peace. (Jeez, I sound like an old hippy).
Dinosaurs didn't create everything? How dare you forsake my dino-gods.
RAPTOR JESUS
Interesting question.
Here's my take: Dinosaurs, Evolution, and Creationism can all be 100% real. It's the Bible that's clearly fictional.
If you've studied much in the way of physics or astronomy you know this progression;
Massive Star collapses and dies, explodes (supernova).
Enormous cloud of gas and dust.
Disturbance and uneven distribution creates gravitational pull and heavy elements come together in eddys. Planets are forming.
Center of heated gas is growing gravitationally and heating up. Becoming a star.
Ignition of star.
Formation of planets.
If we were another 1,000 miles from the sun this planet would be immeasurably different. If the surface of the planet were 5 degrees hotter humans might never have evolved.
We are in the perfect spot for water to form, and be liquid instead of gas or solid. We have just enough atmosphere to keep the surface of the planet warm, but not enough to create an overwhelming greenhouse. Every part of our ecosystem supports every other part.
There's no way in hell that's all by chance. Some greater power had to have had a hand.
Some greater power is (or at the very leats WAS) at work in the universe. I don't buy that carbon bonds perfectly to create organic compounds and that the Earth is chock full of them by chance and that protoplasm received the spark of life from electrical discharges and cell walls came out of nowhere and multicelled organisms were next and soon there were fish and then fish that walked out of the water and then reptiles and then mammals, ALL BY CHANCE.
Sure, it happened that way, sure we evolved, yeah at one point we were the first little four legged fucks to stand up and walk, but not without help.
On the other hand, the Bible was written 2,000 years ago by a bunch of people who didn't have indoor plumbing, didn't understand the germ theory of disease, and who thought the Earth was flat. Give me a break. Their story is essentially the same dying/rising savior motif that every religion has had since Persephone got to come out of the underworld in the Spring time. It just happened to be the hottest myth going when we became technologically advanced enough to start spreading "the word".
To believe the Bible you have to believe that some omnipotent being sent you the single worst excuse for a "proof of his existence" ever, and expects you to believe it even though it's clearly not provable, and if you don't blindly follow this book of contradictions he's going to torture you forever without giving you a second chance. Wouldn't that make him an enormous tool?
Is being confused and questioning, with the curiosity that this being allegedly gave you, reason enough to burn forever, and not get a second chance even if and when you realize you F-ed up?
The book you read, the King James version of the bible was edited by 10 groups of 6 priests, before going to the head of each of the ten groups for further editing, then each of those 10 got together and that "super group" edited it further, changing it as they thought it should be, and then the final draft was presented to King James who slapped his own interpretation on it.
That's a sacred guide that can't be wrong and can't be questioned?
Hell, the Bible can't even get its own story straight. In the book of Luke Jesus never lost faith and said to God "forgive them Father for they know not what they do," when he was on the cross, but in Matthew he loses faith and asks "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Well... which is it?
No way. It's horseshit. Nobody parted the Red Sea. If the only animals that survived were the ones that Noah had on the Ark, why are there species of animals in North Americ for which there are no counterparts or fossilized evidence in Europe?
It's a story.
Still, all that having been said, the spark of consciousness that makes us special (though not that much more special than chimpanzees in my opinion) ISN'T HERE BY CHANCE. There's equally no way that all of this just worked out by chance and here we are. There would have to have been a googleplex trillion Big Bangs for things to have evolved this way without a little nudge in the right direction.
I don't believe that there's a Supreme Being, a God, who takes a hand in our daily lives. If you do you have to believe that he lets 5 year old girls get brutally raped and murdered and it's okay because it's God's will, and if that's true then I can't do anything but call him a Fuck if that's his attitude. I don't care how powerful he is, if he LETS a 5 year old girl get ass-raped, he sucks. I choose to believe that no supreme being takes a hand in our day to day lives. I do believe that some greater power set this deal in motion.
What happens when we're dead I can't say. I just hope that if there's something afterwards, and you have to qualify for it by acting properly when you're on this rock, that giving to charity, serving your country, giving back to the community and the planet, not stealing or killing, and doing your best to be a decent person are enough to get you to that next step.
If not, I'm fucked.
Here's my take: Dinosaurs, Evolution, and Creationism can all be 100% real. It's the Bible that's clearly fictional.
If you've studied much in the way of physics or astronomy you know this progression;
Massive Star collapses and dies, explodes (supernova).
Enormous cloud of gas and dust.
Disturbance and uneven distribution creates gravitational pull and heavy elements come together in eddys. Planets are forming.
Center of heated gas is growing gravitationally and heating up. Becoming a star.
Ignition of star.
Formation of planets.
If we were another 1,000 miles from the sun this planet would be immeasurably different. If the surface of the planet were 5 degrees hotter humans might never have evolved.
We are in the perfect spot for water to form, and be liquid instead of gas or solid. We have just enough atmosphere to keep the surface of the planet warm, but not enough to create an overwhelming greenhouse. Every part of our ecosystem supports every other part.
There's no way in hell that's all by chance. Some greater power had to have had a hand.
Some greater power is (or at the very leats WAS) at work in the universe. I don't buy that carbon bonds perfectly to create organic compounds and that the Earth is chock full of them by chance and that protoplasm received the spark of life from electrical discharges and cell walls came out of nowhere and multicelled organisms were next and soon there were fish and then fish that walked out of the water and then reptiles and then mammals, ALL BY CHANCE.
Sure, it happened that way, sure we evolved, yeah at one point we were the first little four legged fucks to stand up and walk, but not without help.
On the other hand, the Bible was written 2,000 years ago by a bunch of people who didn't have indoor plumbing, didn't understand the germ theory of disease, and who thought the Earth was flat. Give me a break. Their story is essentially the same dying/rising savior motif that every religion has had since Persephone got to come out of the underworld in the Spring time. It just happened to be the hottest myth going when we became technologically advanced enough to start spreading "the word".
To believe the Bible you have to believe that some omnipotent being sent you the single worst excuse for a "proof of his existence" ever, and expects you to believe it even though it's clearly not provable, and if you don't blindly follow this book of contradictions he's going to torture you forever without giving you a second chance. Wouldn't that make him an enormous tool?
Is being confused and questioning, with the curiosity that this being allegedly gave you, reason enough to burn forever, and not get a second chance even if and when you realize you F-ed up?
The book you read, the King James version of the bible was edited by 10 groups of 6 priests, before going to the head of each of the ten groups for further editing, then each of those 10 got together and that "super group" edited it further, changing it as they thought it should be, and then the final draft was presented to King James who slapped his own interpretation on it.
That's a sacred guide that can't be wrong and can't be questioned?
Hell, the Bible can't even get its own story straight. In the book of Luke Jesus never lost faith and said to God "forgive them Father for they know not what they do," when he was on the cross, but in Matthew he loses faith and asks "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Well... which is it?
No way. It's horseshit. Nobody parted the Red Sea. If the only animals that survived were the ones that Noah had on the Ark, why are there species of animals in North Americ for which there are no counterparts or fossilized evidence in Europe?
It's a story.
Still, all that having been said, the spark of consciousness that makes us special (though not that much more special than chimpanzees in my opinion) ISN'T HERE BY CHANCE. There's equally no way that all of this just worked out by chance and here we are. There would have to have been a googleplex trillion Big Bangs for things to have evolved this way without a little nudge in the right direction.
I don't believe that there's a Supreme Being, a God, who takes a hand in our daily lives. If you do you have to believe that he lets 5 year old girls get brutally raped and murdered and it's okay because it's God's will, and if that's true then I can't do anything but call him a Fuck if that's his attitude. I don't care how powerful he is, if he LETS a 5 year old girl get ass-raped, he sucks. I choose to believe that no supreme being takes a hand in our day to day lives. I do believe that some greater power set this deal in motion.
What happens when we're dead I can't say. I just hope that if there's something afterwards, and you have to qualify for it by acting properly when you're on this rock, that giving to charity, serving your country, giving back to the community and the planet, not stealing or killing, and doing your best to be a decent person are enough to get you to that next step.
If not, I'm fucked.
Last edited by Dersmikner (2006-08-12 10:08:22)
The bible isnt 100% fictional. SOME parts of the bible in the english translation taken literally are fictional. If your going to study things from the cosmos to the atom you should at least use the original language the bible was written in to compare them to. 5 year old girls getting brutally raped is not Gods will. God gave us free will and some evil person can decide to do that. If God stopped all the bad things from happening we wouldnt have free will.
Then why pray? Why ask God for strength? Why ask that God's Will be done? He's either got a hand in things or doesn't.
If he had Moses part the Red Sea and had Noah build an Ark and sent Jesus down for us, did he have an active hand then and then just decide to quit and see how it goes from there?
If he creates "miracles" then he can't let kids get raped. Anyone who actually believes, when they say "Lord please let Jimmy pull out of this coma," that God is involved in Jimmy's coma in any way has to give me a good reason why a family of 5 got killed by a drunk driver last week.
If he had Moses part the Red Sea and had Noah build an Ark and sent Jesus down for us, did he have an active hand then and then just decide to quit and see how it goes from there?
If he creates "miracles" then he can't let kids get raped. Anyone who actually believes, when they say "Lord please let Jimmy pull out of this coma," that God is involved in Jimmy's coma in any way has to give me a good reason why a family of 5 got killed by a drunk driver last week.
Last edited by Dersmikner (2006-08-12 10:11:59)
Dersmikner has it pretty much right, at least as a good alternative based on reason. Btw JaMDuDe, I'd love to know which parts of the bible you don't consider to be fictional and which you do.....and a clue as to how you came by this information would be greatly appreciated.
This is complicated and confusing stuff. Im not the best person to be talking to to understand everything about God. But things might have been planned. The bible says jesus was chosin before the creation of earth. Whether or not jimmy comes out of his coma may already have been planned before he was in it. There is no time where God is, time was created during the big bang. We sinned, thats why there is evil in the world and why God doesnt stop every single evil thing. You want God to take free will away so nobody has to suffer.
acsman i dont consider any parts of the original bible fictional.
acsman i dont consider any parts of the original bible fictional.
Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-08-12 11:40:14)
Dersmikner, totally agree with you. I believe that the bible is something to live off of, moral values, respect your neighbor all that good stuff. Do I believe that its real? I'm in the process of saying no, which is kinda hard considering all those years of believing. But I can't believe that if God was going to make an earth and give people free will, that he would scare people into believing him (sin, hell..). To say that we are imperfect and will never be good enough for God unless we accept Jesus is just a scare tactic to get children into the religion.
Dinosaurs is something i've struggled with for a long time. When I was little I thought that the bones where there to weed out the 'weak' believers if you understand what i'm saying. Now I see that is illogical and retarded.. bah its too confusing i'm not even guna go on
Dinosaurs is something i've struggled with for a long time. When I was little I thought that the bones where there to weed out the 'weak' believers if you understand what i'm saying. Now I see that is illogical and retarded.. bah its too confusing i'm not even guna go on
I will now attempt to prove mathematically that there is no God.
Nothingness or 0 (zero) = ∞ space
Force in ∞ space according to Law of Universal Gravitation = F = -G * (m1*m2 / r²) = 6.67 × 10e−11 * ( 0 / ∞) = ∞ (because 0 and ∞ are interchangable as shown by line above)
∞F=∞E
E=MC²
Humans = M
Case closed.
Nothingness or 0 (zero) = ∞ space
Force in ∞ space according to Law of Universal Gravitation = F = -G * (m1*m2 / r²) = 6.67 × 10e−11 * ( 0 / ∞) = ∞ (because 0 and ∞ are interchangable as shown by line above)
∞F=∞E
E=MC²
Humans = M
Case closed.
I don't fully believe in either evolution or the beginning as depicted in the Bible. Sure, we have proof dinosaurs existed and evolution explains a lot EXCEPT for the beginning of life. Life is not spontaneous and I haven't heard a reasonable explanation for the spark of life on this planet. None of that gravitational force and pressure applies to this. Minerals are made by intense heat and pressure, not humans or any other lifeform for that matter.
Above Post: I pity you.
Above Post: I pity you.
Last edited by DesertFox423 (2006-08-12 11:29:54)
Life is spontaneous. With the right conditions it will appear. After all, life is just a load of elements and a chemical reactions. The chances are that it would occur somewhere given ∞ space. Obviously the over-inflated human ego plays a part in the belief that it is somehow special or unique. It's not.DesertFox423 wrote:
I don't fully believe in either evolution or the beginning as depicted in the Bible. Sure, we have proof dinosaurs existed and evolution explains a lot EXCEPT for the beginning of life. Life is not spontaneous and I haven't heard a reasonable explanation for the spark of life on this planet. None of that gravitational force and pressure applies to this. Minerals are made by intense heat and pressure, not humans or any other lifeform for that matter.
Above Post: I pity you.
edit: a further stage of proof... most monothesic religions state that God is infinite.
Given God = ∞ and ∞ space = 0, God = 0, therefore there is no God.
Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-08-12 12:03:41)
Find some scientific experiment where life spontaneously appears out of nothing. The chemical part is an essential piece, not the whole thing however. I dare say as well, that is not the same sense as a "finite" or "infinite" god. You must be joking with that...not really an equation, so....statement?
I'm glad you're coming around to a more logical way of thinking.CommieChipmunk wrote:
Dersmikner, totally agree with you. I believe that the bible is something to live off of, moral values, respect your neighbor all that good stuff. Do I believe that its real? I'm in the process of saying no, which is kinda hard considering all those years of believing. But I can't believe that if God was going to make an earth and give people free will, that he would scare people into believing him (sin, hell..). To say that we are imperfect and will never be good enough for God unless we accept Jesus is just a scare tactic to get children into the religion.
Dinosaurs is something i've struggled with for a long time. When I was little I thought that the bones where there to weed out the 'weak' believers if you understand what i'm saying. Now I see that is illogical and retarded.. bah its too confusing i'm not even guna go on
The vast majority of religion is/was just another way of exerting influence over people. Religious groups are amongst some of the most rich, influential and powerful groups in the world.
People who believe the bible to be literally true, are in my view, deluded. The bible is such a self contradictory work, with so many aspects of it that do not fit with things we either know, or suspect (with substantial evidence to support these suspicions), that people who have unquestioning faith in it are not looking at it hard enough - or have been taken in by these influential religious groups. I am not just talking about Christianity, but about all religion - most specifically Christianity, Islam and Judaism, as I believe these 3 religions which are essentially the same, worshiping the same God and arguing about how to do it. These 3 religions are (and have been for millenia) responsible for so much suffering around the world that they are clearly not the correct way of worshiping a God.
If there is a 'Higher Power' out there, which is not what I believe but I can understand why people do, then why argue over who is worshiping in the correct way.
Religion, not belief in a god or gods is what I have a problem with. These religious groups do not represent a God in any way - only a system that has been established over thousands of years to control and use people by powerful groups who have made a lot of money out of peoples belief.
All religion achieves in the modern world is another way of segregating people (the main cause of segregation being ethnic, but religion is closely tied with this - look at the holocaust for an example of this), this segregation leads only to death and suffering. A lot of the ideals embraced by religion are good standards to live by, although most religions claim that people who follow other religions don't count and murdering those who have different beliefs to be quite acceptable, which is integral to the way religions work.
Creationism is a joke, which is how dinosaurs and creationism co-exist.
You'd need a lab the size of the earth and millions of years to for an experient where even the most basic genome spontaneously (edit: actually, randomly would be a better word) formed from chemicals and storms in the atmosphere... wait, we've got one, and that's why we're here.DesertFox423 wrote:
Find some scientific experiment where life spontaneously appears out of nothing. The chemical part is an essential piece, not the whole thing however. I dare say as well, that is not the same sense as a "finite" or "infinite" god. You must be joking with that...not really an equation, so....statement?
Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-08-12 12:31:41)
Life cannot spontaneous generate. Spontaneous generation is a hypothesis that is 100% faith based.
We don't know how life started, not yet.
Just as we didn't know how the universe was created a while back.
We will know one day and religion will once again have to take a step back.
Just as we didn't know how the universe was created a while back.
We will know one day and religion will once again have to take a step back.
Well, given that I've already proven that God doesn't exist it's the only alternative that remains.JaMDuDe wrote:
Life cannot spontaneous generate. Spontaneous generation is a hypothesis that is 100% faith based.
That's not true, experiments have created amino acids, which form the building blocks of life by passing current through collections of basic atomic particles, such as Ammonia and Methane. The steps involved in the creation of life are not 100% understood, but just because something is not fully explained (yet) does not make it any less true.JaMDuDe wrote:
Life cannot spontaneous generate. Spontaneous generation is a hypothesis that is 100% faith based.
Spontaneous generation is a hypothesis based on well established facts of the understood stages of development. At the very least if a 'God' had created life, it would not have been in a recognisable form to us, merely single celled organisms.
We will understand this stuff fully eventually and religion will adapt yet again to try to maintain it's hold on those who need a higher power to believe in. There is nothing wrong with belief in a higher power, just the commitment to organised religion and the dogma that these 'cults' (for that is what these religious groups (and I DO mean Christains, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists etc.) really are, they are just more established than groups traditionally refered to as cults) perpetuate.
Youve proven that God isnt floating above the clouds, nothing more. Hes not limited to mathmatics for this universe.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
Well, given that I've already proven that God doesn't exist it's the only alternative that remains.JaMDuDe wrote:
Life cannot spontaneous generate. Spontaneous generation is a hypothesis that is 100% faith based.
Amino acids arent even close to creating life. Can you show me the experiment?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_experimentJaMDuDe wrote:
Youve proven that God isnt floating above the clouds, nothing more. Hes not limited to mathmatics for this universe.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
Well, given that I've already proven that God doesn't exist it's the only alternative that remains.JaMDuDe wrote:
Life cannot spontaneous generate. Spontaneous generation is a hypothesis that is 100% faith based.
Amino acids arent even close to creating life. Can you show me the experiment?
edit: Here's some interesting reading too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/life … ndex.shtml
edit: And here's and experiment being planned which will take the simplest possible genome and create life... of course the same set of people who say it isn't possible are the one's trying to stop it on the grounds of "playing God". http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/556984.stm Of course the odds of the a genome randomly occuring from various reactions in a primordial soup are low, but since the universe is infinite they start looking a hell of alot better.
Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-08-12 13:14:16)