rez0nance
Member
+1|6733|Miami, FL, USA

CameronPoe wrote:

It's funny - there are probably zero pro-zionists that have asked themselves that question!!
Pro-Zionists? Are you serious? I'll answer with your own comment:

CameronPoe wrote:

Hmmm..... reminds me of a little angry Austrian I once read about....
Seriously dude, chill with the double standards. Furthermore, this is not an issue of the "Zionists" versus "poor civilians".
Grow up.
Israel is a Jewish state, but plenty of others live there too, and they also have the wish and right to defend themselves.

Speak all the crap you want about them being the aggressors, and about them using "excessive" force, but remember the reasons Hezbollah and other terrorist groups have chosen to attack Israel. You so eloquently pointed one out yourself, for Sharon visiting a temple. Now that is definitely good reason to attack Israel, no?

Last edited by rez0nance (2006-07-24 14:22:04)

GATOR591957
Member
+84|6870

CameronPoe wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

King_County_Downy wrote:

Anyone notice that hezballoh targets civillians? How can anyone take their side? wtf is wrong with you people thinking it's ok for them but if we or or Isreal accidently kill civilians while targetting the enemy, we're're the bad guys? If Isreal or the US wanted to kill civillians, shit...I don't even have to finish the sentence.
We are Infidel's remember.
Yet more people who believe that if one holds a contrary opinion you are automatically a suicide-belt wearing towelhead-sympathising cuntbag. Open your minds people. Don't fucking pre-suppose - there are other opinions out there. Deal with it. Disagreering does not equal supporting Hezbollah - I despair sometimes I really do.

"You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." George W. Bush

Gee George I never realised we live in a 2-dimensional, black or white, good or evil, binary world. What a fucking idiot he is. Problem is his mental deficiency seems to have spread.
I don't feel that at all, you have your right to your opinion.  You are posing the same black white scenario Cameron.  If we don't believe your theory we need to open our minds.  Sorry, I just don't agree.  Israel is in possession of it's territory, whether you agree or disagree with how they got it is irrelevant, it's theirs.  Being surrounded by enemies they have the need to protect it.  Which has been a fight since inception.  I did not see ball bearings in the bombs from Israel, I did see them in the rockets from Herbal.  So if Israel fought the same war Herbal and Hams has fought how would you view them then?

I do however agree with your view on our President.  I watched tape of the G8 conference and thought he was chewing cud while Blair was talking to him.  What an embarrassment.

Last edited by GATOR591957 (2006-07-24 14:26:51)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6798

GATOR591957 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

We are Infidel's remember.
Yet more people who believe that if one holds a contrary opinion you are automatically a suicide-belt wearing towelhead-sympathising cuntbag. Open your minds people. Don't fucking pre-suppose - there are other opinions out there. Deal with it. Disagreering does not equal supporting Hezbollah - I despair sometimes I really do.

"You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." George W. Bush

Gee George I never realised we live in a 2-dimensional, black or white, good or evil, binary world. What a fucking idiot he is. Problem is his mental deficiency seems to have spread.
I don't feel that at all, you have your right to your opinion.  You are posing the same black white scenario Cameron.  If we don't believe your theory we need to open our minds.  Sorry, I just don't agree.  Israel is in possession of it's territory, whether you agree or disagree with how they got it is irrelevant, it's theirs.  Being surrounded by enemies they have the need to protect it.  Which has been a fight since inception.  I did not see ball bearings in the bombs from Israel, I did see them in the rockets from Herbal.  So if Israel fought the same war Herbal and Hams has fought how would you view them then?

I do however agree with your view on our President.  I watched tape of the G8 conference and thought he was chewing cud while Blair was talking to him.  What an embarrassment.
Israel is a reality - I'm not under any illusions here. What they need to do however is get out of the 1967 Palestinian territories completely. I'm not stating that Israel should cease to exist! They obviously have a right to defend themselves - that goes without saying. What they don't have a right to do is to completely annihilate another country. Counter-productive and ridiculous. A train of Lebanese ambulances were blown up today - if that isn't disproportionate response I don't know what is.
What people fail to realise is the sequence of events:
1) Hezbollah abduct two israeli soldiers after killing several (an entirely military operation).
2) Israel start blitzing Lebanon with artillery fire.
3) Hezbollah respond in kind with RAD-2 rockets aimed at civilian centres in northern Israel.

I'm not condoning what Hezbollah are doing with their rockets but it is important to note the sequence of events. The civilians started dying at the hands of the Israelis first, in this particular conflagration.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-24 14:58:05)

King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6840|Seattle

OMG you really belive Isreal is trying to anhilate Lebanon? I haven't seen any carpet bombs yet.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6798

rez0nance wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It's funny - there are probably zero pro-zionists that have asked themselves that question!!
Pro-Zionists? Are you serious? I'll answer with your own comment:

CameronPoe wrote:

Hmmm..... reminds me of a little angry Austrian I once read about....
Seriously dude, chill with the double standards. Furthermore, this is not an issue of the "Zionists" versus "poor civilians".
Grow up.
Israel is a Jewish state, but plenty of others live there too, and they also have the wish and right to defend themselves.

Speak all the crap you want about them being the aggressors, and about them using "excessive" force, but remember the reasons Hezbollah and other terrorist groups have chosen to attack Israel. You so eloquently pointed one out yourself, for Sharon visiting a temple. Now that is definitely good reason to attack Israel, no?
They are not double standards. There is a lot that is similar between zionists and nazis, ironically enough. Nobody is immune to a comparison I might add.

Your comment about the Temple Mount visit shows how little you understand the nature of something that is sacred. I have little appreciation myself given that I am an atheist. Ariel Sharon is basically the 'Darth Vader' of the middle east to nearly all arabs. For him to visit an incredibly sacred shrine is deeply offensive to them. Western minds seem incapable these days of understanding that acts like this can often strike deeper chords with people than actual violence itself. Ariel Sharon knew exactly what the consequences of his actions would be and on his head be the hundreds (maybe thousands) of israelis and thousands (definitely) of Palestinians that have died since that day.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6798

King_County_Downy wrote:

OMG you really belive Isreal is trying to anhilate Lebanon? I haven't seen any carpet bombs yet.
You obviously haven't seen any photos or footage of Lebanon either then. What is destroying a country? THe infracstructure of a country is the backbone of a country. How would USA fare if all airports, seaports and interstate highways were put out of action? That's destruction of a country. It's also collective punishment. You know that a 1/3 of the country is catholic - hardly Hezbollah voters. I don't think they'll be writing thank you notes to the government of Israel.
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6887|Seattle, WA

CameronPoe wrote:

1) Hezbollah abduct two israeli soldiers after killing several (an entirely military operation).
2) Israel start blitzing Lebanon with artillery fire.
3) Hezbollah respond in kind with RAD-2 rockets aimed at civilian centres in northern Israel.

I'm not condoning what Hezbollah are doing with their rockets but it is important to note the sequence of events.
Yes it is important to note the CORRECT sequence of events, you need to get your facts straight friend.  There have been many reports stating that several (read: 2-5) rockets were launched at Israel BEFORE Israel artillery started. *GASP*.  But than after the artillery Hezbollah obviously stepped it up.  Please get your facts straight, thanks.

Sorry to butt into this thread, just can't stand blatant statements of mis-fact.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6798

AlbertWesker[RE] wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

1) Hezbollah abduct two israeli soldiers after killing several (an entirely military operation).
2) Israel start blitzing Lebanon with artillery fire.
3) Hezbollah respond in kind with RAD-2 rockets aimed at civilian centres in northern Israel.

I'm not condoning what Hezbollah are doing with their rockets but it is important to note the sequence of events.
Yes it is important to note the CORRECT sequence of events, you need to get your facts straight friend.  There have been many reports stating that several (read: 2-5) rockets were launched at Israel BEFORE Israel artillery started. *GASP*.  But than after the artillery Hezbollah obviously stepped it up.  Please get your facts straight, thanks.

Sorry to butt into this thread, just can't stand blatant statements of mis-fact.
State source and I will happily stand corrected. My source is BBC2 Newsnight - the Israeli they had on the show conceded that Jeremy Paxman was correct in stating that sequence.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-24 15:11:43)

King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6840|Seattle

CameronPoe wrote:

King_County_Downy wrote:

OMG you really belive Isreal is trying to anhilate Lebanon? I haven't seen any carpet bombs yet.
You obviously haven't seen any photos or footage of Lebanon either then. What is destroying a country? THe infracstructure of a country is the backbone of a country. How would USA fare if all airports, seaports and interstate highways were put out of action? That's destruction of a country. It's also collective punishment. You know that a 1/3 of the country is catholic - hardly Hezbollah voters. I don't think they'll be writing thank you notes to the government of Israel.
So you do think they're trying to anhilate Lebanon. hmmm ok, fair enough.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6798

King_County_Downy wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

King_County_Downy wrote:

OMG you really belive Isreal is trying to anhilate Lebanon? I haven't seen any carpet bombs yet.
You obviously haven't seen any photos or footage of Lebanon either then. What is destroying a country? THe infracstructure of a country is the backbone of a country. How would USA fare if all airports, seaports and interstate highways were put out of action? That's destruction of a country. It's also collective punishment. You know that a 1/3 of the country is catholic - hardly Hezbollah voters. I don't think they'll be writing thank you notes to the government of Israel.
So you do think they're trying to anhilate Lebanon. hmmm ok, fair enough.
Whether they're trying to or not is irrelevant - the fact is that they are.
AlbertWesker[RE]
Not Human Anymore
+144|6887|Seattle, WA

CameronPoe wrote:

State source and I will happily stand corrected. My source is BBC2 Newsnight - the Israeli they had on the show conceded that Jeremy Paxman was correct in stating that sequence.
Arghh, I agree without a source it does sound stupid, however it was reported that only 2-5 rockets were fired before the artillery...I heard this on various talk radio shows, some on fox news, and even on NPR (OMG).  Sorry for being so...aggressive.  Anyways my point was that these were small rocket attacks, than artillery, than massive rocket attacks.
T0rr3nt
Member
+54|6820|Michigan
israel needs to reteach the middle east again why you dont fuck with them. cough6daywarcough
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6804

King_County_Downy wrote:

Anyone notice that hezballoh targets civillians?
According to Time, of the 37 Israelis killed since the start of current hostilities, 17 are confirmed civilians.

King_County_Downy wrote:

How can anyone take their side? wtf is wrong with you people
Zionists killed villages worth of innocent civilians post-WWII to ensure a Jewish majority vote in Israel.

King_County_Downy wrote:

if we or or Isreal accidently kill civilians while targetting the enemy, we're're the bad guys? If Isreal or the US wanted to kill civillians, shit...I don't even have to finish the sentence.
They've killed 300 so far, and there are people like you saying that they aren't targetting civilians.  I'd say they're doing a pretty good job.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6772|Global Command

CameronPoe wrote:

King_County_Downy wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


You obviously haven't seen any photos or footage of Lebanon either then. What is destroying a country? THe infracstructure of a country is the backbone of a country. How would USA fare if all airports, seaports and interstate highways were put out of action? That's destruction of a country. It's also collective punishment. You know that a 1/3 of the country is catholic - hardly Hezbollah voters. I don't think they'll be writing thank you notes to the government of Israel.
So you do think they're trying to anhilate Lebanon. hmmm ok, fair enough.
Whether they're trying to or not is irrelevant - the fact is that they are.
Remeber Dresden?
Thats what you call  ruining a city.
What we have over there is called judicious use of force imop.
Tjasso
the "Commander"
+102|6766|the Netherlands
cant think of anything to say  poor bastards

Last edited by Tjasso (2006-07-24 15:34:47)

TrueArchon
Enemy Sniper..." *BOOM* "Nevermind... got him...
+61|6837|Las Vegas, NV USA
So, all this debate boils down to the question:

"How does a country go to war against terrorists?"

Here's how I see how this debate has gone so far:

PRO for Israel:

Israel has a right to defend it's citizens against harm.  The fact that artillery, bombs, and missiles are killing Israeli citizens is not in debate.  The weapon fire is coming from the Lebanese border, as are the terrorist "soldiers."  Thus, to get to the source of the problem, the beginning of a good defense, is a good offense in Lebanon.

CON for Israel:

Israel doesn't have a right to kill a nation's civilians to get to an enemy not necessarily supported by the nation in question.

So, where does this leave us?  Let's explore the options I've seen thus far:

Israel immediately ceasing hostilities:

Well, the Lebanese civilians can return to their lives of uncertain safety.  The Lebanese civilians will still have a weak government that can't do anything about their Hezbollah cohabitants, who they know will not cease their aggression against Israel.  Hezbollah continues to live amongst those civilians, threatening those civilians if they don't support them, and continue to get weapons and supplies from outside nations to continue their aggressive stance.

Israel continues hostilities:

The Lebanese official government can't do anything against their own "unofficial" army, the Hezbollah.  So how can they even defend their own citizens from another nation's "official" military?  Israel continues to attack Hezbollah enemies hiding amongst civilians, resulting in many civilian casualties.  Hezbollah is put more on a defensive, thus keeping Hezbollah hostilities against Israel at a lower level.  Israel is now not focusing upon a reactive defense, but is instead on a more of an active offense.

So, now where are we at?  Obviously, the hotly debated topic of Israel's aggressive stance.

Looking at the website posted by alpinestar's original post, I wonder how different those little flags would look if the UN decided to actually confront the problem on hand... the Hezbollah.

Let's say that there was a perspective resolution from the UN where they send in troops to ferret out the Hezbollah from Lebanon, and thus giving Lebanon's official government a chance to solidify it's own power over it's nation.

Israel, The United States, and The United Kingdom would probably support such an action.  However, Syria and Iran may oppose such an action, as well as any other nation that has interests in Hezbollah's continued existence (which is largely made up of enemies of Israel within the Middle East).  Then, there would be those nations that would prefer to sit on the fence whenever it comes to anything, but a "peaceful" resolution that doesn't involve sending in peacekeeping troops.

The problem with this hypothetical scenario is not the result in handling the problem at hand, the Hezbollah, but the UN's general indecisiveness to solve the problem at hand because of how many nations have something at stake in this type of resolution.  Imagine how Iran or Syria would feel if the UN was actually in the business of stopping terrorist groups?  Officially, they oppose terrorist groups.  Unofficially, the support them with weapons and supplies.

So, my question at the beginning of this post still remains unanswered:

"How does a country go to war against terrorists?"

As the world is today, most nations fear actually getting involved in a war, because of the world publics negative view of wars.  As a result, there are unofficially supported wars that involve terrorists that aren't necessarily tied to any specific nation.  On the flip side, when a nation is attacked by a terrorist group, how are they going to defend themselves against such a group?  A nation does have a right to defend itself, and it's citizens.  However, how does a country go to war against a terrorist group?

Can any of you actually answer this question?  If you can, I'd bet that you could find a possible solution for Israel's problems and solutions.  However, I'd also bet that there are several nations that would be against it.
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6840|Seattle

TrueArchon wrote:

So, my question at the beginning of this post still remains unanswered:

"How does a country go to war against terrorists?"
Exactly how it's being done. Go in. Kill them (Before they kill you). Help the nation better itself and get out.

Last edited by King_County_Downy (2006-07-24 16:24:17)

Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
TXVeteran512
Member
+16|6735
all i will say is the bee hive was kicked once, why go kick it again,  no wonder they getting STUNG
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6798

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

King_County_Downy wrote:


So you do think they're trying to anhilate Lebanon. hmmm ok, fair enough.
Whether they're trying to or not is irrelevant - the fact is that they are.
Remeber Dresden?
Thats what you call  ruining a city.
What we have over there is called judicious use of force imop.
There are varying degrees of ruining a city - it's not a case of it being a) not ruined or b) ruined. Dresden is just the extreme example of ruination.
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6770|Portland, OR USA

T0rr3nt wrote:

israel needs to reteach the middle east again why you dont fuck with them. cough6daywarcough
a lesson I've brought up without name previously.  Israel needs no help from anyone.  We had to step in like a buddy at a bar fight and hold them back.

That being said, I don't think much effort is being made by the international community to truly understand the situation as it is trying to affect their opinion of what should be done.  The only real opinions I'm interested in to be honest are those of an Israeli or a Palestinian.  Anything else is just tainted conjecture and injection of third party values and partial situational knowledge at best.

I think it's been widely demonstrated that the media is an entirely unreliable source for information of a singular nature.  To truly be aware of any situation you have to be educated enough on the sources you are listen to and willfully balance those inputs.  The tendency is to find a stream of information pleasing to you or with which you agree and then validate it as a reliable and reputable source.  Rather self serving and perpetuating in the end.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6798

PuckMercury wrote:

That being said, I don't think much effort is being made by the international community to truly understand the situation as it is trying to affect their opinion of what should be done.  The only real opinions I'm interested in to be honest are those of an Israeli or a Palestinian.  Anything else is just tainted conjecture and injection of third party values and partial situational knowledge at best.

I think it's been widely demonstrated that the media is an entirely unreliable source for information of a singular nature.  To truly be aware of any situation you have to be educated enough on the sources you are listen to and willfully balance those inputs.  The tendency is to find a stream of information pleasing to you or with which you agree and then validate it as a reliable and reputable source.  Rather self serving and perpetuating in the end.
True.
alpinestar
Member
+304|6839|New York City baby.
I just feel for all the wounded and killed kids during Jew attack.
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6840|Seattle

alpinestar wrote:

I just feel for all the wounded and killed kids during Jew attack.
Well, who doesn't? I ALSO feel bad for the Isreali's wounded and killed during the Hezbollah attacks.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
alpinestar
Member
+304|6839|New York City baby.

King_County_Downy wrote:

alpinestar wrote:

I just feel for all the wounded and killed kids during Jew attack.
Well, who doesn't? I ALSO feel bad for the Isreali's wounded and killed during the Hezbollah attacks.
I didn't know of any Israel children casualties, but I might be wrong

Last edited by alpinestar (2006-07-24 16:45:43)

Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6864|London, England
How does a country go to war against terrorists?
I'm not sure, i can tell you however that it does not contain bombing with huge fuck off bombs. Israel knows that they are hiding within civilians, so why bomb them? Why not root them out using some other means? Use something that doesn't cause so much collateral?

Eg (fictional, but bear with me): One Hezbollah dude standing among a crowd of civilians, Israel's response would be to bomb the crowd of civilians hoping that the hezbollah dude would die in that. That's how they are fighting these guys, that's why people are pissed off at Israel.

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2006-07-24 17:01:02)

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