Quite possible
I understand Evolution is a theory. My point is that there is many more facts and artifacts that make Evolution much more plausible than Creation. If you have any facts or artifacts that support Creationism, I'd love to see them. True, neither has been proven thus far. But my point again is that in light of facts and artifacts, Evolution is much more plausible than Creation.GATOR591957 wrote:
You are evading the issue.. The theory of evolution is just that a theory. I will concede there are facts and artifacts showing the gradual adaptation of man through time. Nothing thus far has proven how man was created. I'm asking you to show me the cold hard facts that prove Evolution created man. If you'll read back a few threads I pose that neither can be proven.Obey_m0rph3us wrote:
faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)PuckMercury wrote:
Then you don't understand the definition of faithObey_m0rph3us wrote:
I believe in science, I don't have faith in it.
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Most of science rests on logical proof or material evidence. Faith is believing in something without material evidence.Yea, show me where "a man in the sky went click to create the universe" was proved. The Theory of Evolution has been supplemented with such facts as fossil records, comparative anatomy of present day species, DNA sequencing, the geographical distribution of species, etc.GATOR591957 wrote:
Show me where the theory of evolution has been proven once! If it was proven many times over it would be fact.
Please, someone show me some cold hard facts of Creationism.
of course the catch 22 being no proof for creationism can ever exist beyond the utter absurdity that protein chains randomly coalesced into Stephen Hawkings. It is far more likely that something guided that chain of events.
GATOR only religious nucases call evolution a "theory". There are mountains of evidence for it and not the few bits and bobs you're suggesting. Here's just some of it.....
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
To the contrary the science community calls it a theory as well. Reason being, there is not enough evidence to support the origin of life through evolution. Is it too difficult to open ones mind to the possibilities of divine intervention? Hey, I can't prove creationism either, I'm just saying there are things we as humans cannot understand. Yet in our own need to know everything we rush to judgment.=OBS= EstebanRey wrote:
GATOR only religious nucases call evolution a "theory". There are mountains of evidence for it and not the few bits and bobs you're suggesting. Here's just some of it.....
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
Here is a testable creation model. It is from a christian website but its not easy to find evidence for creation through atheists.Obey_m0rph3us wrote:
I understand Evolution is a theory. My point is that there is many more facts and artifacts that make Evolution much more plausible than Creation. If you have any facts or artifacts that support Creationism, I'd love to see them. True, neither has been proven thus far. But my point again is that in light of facts and artifacts, Evolution is much more plausible than Creation.
Esteban thinks stephen hawkings is a genius/god and just copies what he says and takes it as the only truth. He says things like all scientists believe evolution.
JamDude, I've already debunked your "testable creation model." Why did you post that again? Or did you just learn absolutely nothing from that argument...
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.
Faith, by it's very nature, requires a level of not knowing something. If you knew something existed or was going to happen it wouldn't be faith. It's called fact. I have faith that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, but I can't prove it. Just because it has every single day doesn't mean it ever will again.
So yes, I guess I'm "ignorant" about whether or not the sun will rise. But I'm not stupid. I don't know for sure. I've got faith that it will.
Having faith does not make one ignorant in the negative sense of the word. Being religious does not make one ignorant in the negative sense of the word.
The arguments here just seem petty to me.
Faith, by it's very nature, requires a level of not knowing something. If you knew something existed or was going to happen it wouldn't be faith. It's called fact. I have faith that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, but I can't prove it. Just because it has every single day doesn't mean it ever will again.
So yes, I guess I'm "ignorant" about whether or not the sun will rise. But I'm not stupid. I don't know for sure. I've got faith that it will.
Having faith does not make one ignorant in the negative sense of the word. Being religious does not make one ignorant in the negative sense of the word.
The arguments here just seem petty to me.
Last edited by Chuckles (2006-07-28 13:55:03)
Marconius, I guess I missed where you completely debunked it with scientific facts. Could you please give me a link to where you did? I know you like to post your own opinion on how things shouldnt be true but i want to see the facts.
Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-07-28 14:00:38)
Let's just summarize the last few pages (and probably the next few):
Jamdude, GATOR591957, et al, believe in God, religion, etc, and they're not going to budge from their position. They'll try like heck to convince the non believers, likely out of a sense of obligation to their religion. That's fine.
=OBS= EstebanRey, Marconius, et al, don't believe in God, religion, etc and they're not going to budge from their position. They'll argue all day that you can't prove God exists. That's fine.
Both sides: Not afraid to devolve into petty bickering. Meanwhile the original poster, who felt so strongly about the issue that he posted, what, three or four times in an eight page thread, laughs at you all and thinks he's cool because he started a thread that went eight pages by typing four words.
Is that about right? I have faith that it is.
Jamdude, GATOR591957, et al, believe in God, religion, etc, and they're not going to budge from their position. They'll try like heck to convince the non believers, likely out of a sense of obligation to their religion. That's fine.
=OBS= EstebanRey, Marconius, et al, don't believe in God, religion, etc and they're not going to budge from their position. They'll argue all day that you can't prove God exists. That's fine.
Both sides: Not afraid to devolve into petty bickering. Meanwhile the original poster, who felt so strongly about the issue that he posted, what, three or four times in an eight page thread, laughs at you all and thinks he's cool because he started a thread that went eight pages by typing four words.
Is that about right? I have faith that it is.
Last edited by Chuckles (2006-07-28 15:05:00)
nuh uh!
Am not!
EDIT:
Ultimately, those that chose to make good points simply had their posts ignored so short sighted type folk could degenerate this into yet another athiest vs. believer flame for all.
Am not!
EDIT:
Ultimately, those that chose to make good points simply had their posts ignored so short sighted type folk could degenerate this into yet another athiest vs. believer flame for all.
Last edited by PuckMercury (2006-07-28 17:24:10)
ive only posted 4 times in this thread why is my name up there
probably bleed through. Your opinion and presense is so pervasive that it permeates past particular posts.
Ahh, a topic close to my heart.
Faith...the belief that something or someone exists without factual proof that it/he/she does. What a conundrum.
As a Christian, sorry Poe, I have faith that God exists. Even though there is no factual proof of his existence. Does that make me ignorant? I don't think so. What I think it makes me is an optimist. I CHOOSE to believe there is a higher power, fully knowing there is no proof of such existence.
I am not ignorant of the fact that there is no proof of His existence. I in fact relish it. Believing there is something better for me after this life is the fruit I feed on daily, and it sustains me in my day to day dealings with life and crisis'.
Now, maybe the statement should be: "Religion requires ignorance". Now there is a good debate.
Why was "religion" created? Why was faith pigeon-holed into sectarian teachings? Why are there so many denominations fighting for our souls and participation? I'll tell you:
MONEY
Churches were not just created to have places of worship, for people to get together and proclaim their faith and share their knowledge (teachings), but rather to MAKE MONEY and therefore GAIN POWER.
The wealthiest organization in the world is the Catholic church. They just happen to be the most powerful one also.
So, here's the question that begs to be answered: Can you have faith in God, but shun the religious organizations that preach His teachings, and still be considered faithful? ;-)
Faith...the belief that something or someone exists without factual proof that it/he/she does. What a conundrum.
As a Christian, sorry Poe, I have faith that God exists. Even though there is no factual proof of his existence. Does that make me ignorant? I don't think so. What I think it makes me is an optimist. I CHOOSE to believe there is a higher power, fully knowing there is no proof of such existence.
I am not ignorant of the fact that there is no proof of His existence. I in fact relish it. Believing there is something better for me after this life is the fruit I feed on daily, and it sustains me in my day to day dealings with life and crisis'.
Now, maybe the statement should be: "Religion requires ignorance". Now there is a good debate.
Why was "religion" created? Why was faith pigeon-holed into sectarian teachings? Why are there so many denominations fighting for our souls and participation? I'll tell you:
MONEY
Churches were not just created to have places of worship, for people to get together and proclaim their faith and share their knowledge (teachings), but rather to MAKE MONEY and therefore GAIN POWER.
The wealthiest organization in the world is the Catholic church. They just happen to be the most powerful one also.
So, here's the question that begs to be answered: Can you have faith in God, but shun the religious organizations that preach His teachings, and still be considered faithful? ;-)
absolutely, the strongest spiritual faith is gained by your own means and arrived at outside the confines of and religious dogma.
I have faith that poe is an ass.
Not having faith requires ignorance.
Not having faith requires ignorance.
By very definition faith does require ignorance. Without ignorance it ceases to be faith and becomes solid fact.
If you ask me organised religion is an outdated and unnecessary concept in the modern world and now only serves to hold back progress, anti-stem cell research, teaching creationism in schools (dinosaurs were real - sorry) etc. and create segregation (there are positive effects, such as people who have turned their lives around after finding God - but these effects could be brought out without organised religion).
If people want to believe in a higher power, then I have absolutely no problem with that, since there are many things scientists have yet to explain, things we may never have answers to - it is in these areas (for example: What happened to create the universe in the Big Bang) that we are ignorant of that leave room for faith - and those who don't accept what are clearly facts are the most ignorant of all.
If you ask me organised religion is an outdated and unnecessary concept in the modern world and now only serves to hold back progress, anti-stem cell research, teaching creationism in schools (dinosaurs were real - sorry) etc. and create segregation (there are positive effects, such as people who have turned their lives around after finding God - but these effects could be brought out without organised religion).
If people want to believe in a higher power, then I have absolutely no problem with that, since there are many things scientists have yet to explain, things we may never have answers to - it is in these areas (for example: What happened to create the universe in the Big Bang) that we are ignorant of that leave room for faith - and those who don't accept what are clearly facts are the most ignorant of all.
How so? That doesn't make much sense. You can have faith in something, and know that there is no proof of what you believe in, so how does that make you ignorant?Bertster7 wrote:
By very definition faith does require ignorance. Without ignorance it ceases to be faith and becomes solid fact.
Evolution is not just a theory - evolution is fact. It has been proved and continues to be proven by continual advancement of different forms of life. In plants, for example, the evolutionary process can be seen over just a few generations (human generations, not plant) as they adapt to different environments to become better suited to their surroundings. Things change, successful things thrive and unsuccessful things die, thats just the way it is, over enough time the characteristics that made the thing successful become inherent in the species. There is so much evidence supporting Evolution that it has evolved from being just a theory and become fact.Obey_m0rph3us wrote:
I understand Evolution is a theory. My point is that there is many more facts and artifacts that make Evolution much more plausible than Creation. If you have any facts or artifacts that support Creationism, I'd love to see them. True, neither has been proven thus far. But my point again is that in light of facts and artifacts, Evolution is much more plausible than Creation.GATOR591957 wrote:
You are evading the issue.. The theory of evolution is just that a theory. I will concede there are facts and artifacts showing the gradual adaptation of man through time. Nothing thus far has proven how man was created. I'm asking you to show me the cold hard facts that prove Evolution created man. If you'll read back a few threads I pose that neither can be proven.Obey_m0rph3us wrote:
faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)PuckMercury wrote:
Then you don't understand the definition of faithObey_m0rph3us wrote:
I believe in science, I don't have faith in it.
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Most of science rests on logical proof or material evidence. Faith is believing in something without material evidence.
Yea, show me where "a man in the sky went click to create the universe" was proved. The Theory of Evolution has been supplemented with such facts as fossil records, comparative anatomy of present day species, DNA sequencing, the geographical distribution of species, etc.
Please, someone show me some cold hard facts of Creationism.
A lot like Quantum Mechanics, which was dismissed by Einstein as being to clumsy and inelegant to be how things actually work on a small scale - yet has provided us with modern transistor technology (which presumably everyone reading this believes in 'cos all modern computers rely entirely on this, unless of course you believe God makes computers work by magic).
Evolution is fact. Anyone who doesn't believe in Evolution is ignorant and should try to do something about it by researching how Evolution works and has been totally and unequivocally proven. If they don't believe in it after a fair amount of reading into it then they are not only ignorant, but stupid.
Because you don't KNOW about the thing you believe in. You just believe in it. It makes total sense.HM1{N} wrote:
How so? That doesn't make much sense. You can have faith in something, and know that there is no proof of what you believe in, so how does that make you ignorant?Bertster7 wrote:
By very definition faith does require ignorance. Without ignorance it ceases to be faith and becomes solid fact.
Far out... must I post 'it' again?
Let's get off evolution, we've been on this track twice and it has ended in exactly the same way both times, and from what I've read here I've seen absolutely nothing that would make this end otherwise.
Let's get off evolution, we've been on this track twice and it has ended in exactly the same way both times, and from what I've read here I've seen absolutely nothing that would make this end otherwise.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Exactly - it is those things that can't be explained by logic and science (that we as a race are ignorant of) that leave room for faith. I can completely understand belief in a higher power setting everything in motion at the beginning of the universe.CO05 wrote:
There are things that logic and science can't explain. I agree with evolution, but what created very first atom?
Could be...kr@cker wrote:
but then who is to say that evolution is not a tool of "god", perhaps the grand design was to include this mechanism for unsupervised adaptation to the ever changing environs
Not what I believe, but a sensible response.
So Genesis is wrong. The bible was only written by people, humans, humans get stuff wrong - especially way back when the first bible was written.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
But that goes against Genesis.
And how do you know they got the whole God thing right?Bertster7 wrote:
So Genesis is wrong. The bible was only written by people, humans, humans get stuff wrong - especially way back when the first bible was written.
You don't know. That's why it's called faith, to believe in something without being sure. Kinda like supporting the Big Bang theory.Bubbalo wrote:
And how do you know they got the whole God thing right?Bertster7 wrote:
So Genesis is wrong. The bible was only written by people, humans, humans get stuff wrong - especially way back when the first bible was written.
I guess you could also say spontaneous generation is fact. You put dirty rags and some hay in the corner of a room and mice appear. Its been proven. Your just ignorant if you deny it. You saying evolution fact shows you dont understand it.Bertster7 wrote:
Evolution is not just a theory - evolution is fact.