Discuss.
Discuss what?CameronPoe wrote:
Discuss.
Whether or not my assertion that 'faith requires ignorance' is true or false.jord wrote:
Discuss what?CameronPoe wrote:
Discuss.
I'd say they're independent, but faith brings a strong tendency to grow ignorant
Yes, but only the same ignorance as anyone has: if you know everything, there's nothing to leave up to faith.
Regardless, I see this going the same way as "religion is a crutch for the mentally weak"..............................
Regardless, I see this going the same way as "religion is a crutch for the mentally weak"..............................
Here is another religion bashing thread.
Why can't you just let us live our lives without having to hear all this bull shit. Where have I shown ignorance or where I am mentally weak? Thats right no where, what you are implying is ignorant though. Or maybe it is a matter of opinion. Regardless I am sick of this bashing and stereotyping.
Why can't you just let us live our lives without having to hear all this bull shit. Where have I shown ignorance or where I am mentally weak? Thats right no where, what you are implying is ignorant though. Or maybe it is a matter of opinion. Regardless I am sick of this bashing and stereotyping.
Then why don't you 1. Ignore it. or 2. Present an undefeatable argument in your favor.topthrill05 wrote:
Here is another religion bashing thread.
Why can't you just let us live our lives without having to hear all this bull shit. Where have I shown ignorance or where I am mentally weak? Thats right no where, what you are implying is ignorant though. Or maybe it is a matter of opinion. Regardless I am sick of this bashing and stereotyping.
Besides, this thread isn't necessarily against religion, only the original poster.
As for the topic, the truth is, religion has led some to be ignorant, which can logically present the question. "Does faith bring ignorance?" I've already answered.
Show me someone who " Knows everything " and I will show you someone who has stopped learning.
Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-07-22 06:58:17)
Uh...........Horseman..........what?
its FRUE, but it could even be Talse, and thats all i have to say.
Cameron - do you mean religious faith, or just faith as in "I have faith that CameronPoe will start a most excellent discussion today."
Edit: dropped a word there
Edit: dropped a word there
Last edited by Kaosdad008 (2006-07-22 07:06:04)
I didn't specify in the original post so that is open to interpretation.Kaosdad008 wrote:
Cameron - do you mean religious faith, or just faith as in "I have faith that CameronPoe will start a most discussion today."
depends on the individual really.
If you're talking about religious fervor, and the so-called Bible Beaters, I'd agree. However, it doesn't have to be this way to have faith in God. I do agree that the more adamantly an individual tries to press their beliefs (religious or otherwise) onto others the more ignorant they are and the less strong their actual "faith" is. I think this is just a security mechanism to build as large a buffer of people around them who believe as they do as possible. This ensures no one who could possibly challenge their beliefs and send them reeling can get to them.
weak faith requires ignorance, however to truly be a strong faith, that requires quite the opposite. A faith which has never been challenged or opposed has no strength at all. In fact, it isn't really faith. It's a lack of options.
EDIT:
If you're talking about religious fervor, and the so-called Bible Beaters, I'd agree. However, it doesn't have to be this way to have faith in God. I do agree that the more adamantly an individual tries to press their beliefs (religious or otherwise) onto others the more ignorant they are and the less strong their actual "faith" is. I think this is just a security mechanism to build as large a buffer of people around them who believe as they do as possible. This ensures no one who could possibly challenge their beliefs and send them reeling can get to them.
weak faith requires ignorance, however to truly be a strong faith, that requires quite the opposite. A faith which has never been challenged or opposed has no strength at all. In fact, it isn't really faith. It's a lack of options.
EDIT:
read the first line of text in my sig. It's a quote that has been in every sig of mine for at least ten years.Horseman 77 wrote:
Show me someone who " Knows everything " and I will show you someone who has stopped learning.
Last edited by puckmercury (2006-07-22 07:30:55)
The only thing I'd add to puck's post is that blind faith is the result of ignorance.
Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
There's the definition. Though faith does lend itself to ignorance, it doesn't require it. It is a belief that is independent (or in spite) of facts. This means faith can be held as the result of ignorance, it can be held in knowledge of evidence that supports it, and it can be held in knowledge of evidence that contradicts it.
I personally believe that faith generally is the result of ignorance. However, the thing people most strongly attach to faith, religion, is a different case. Religion is something people will believe no matter what the evidence, of lack thereof, confirms or denies. Religion is about emotions more than proof. Some people interpret this emotional connection as spiritual. That's fine.
In short, as long as you're not hurting or imposing your will on others with what you decide to believe, knock yourself out.
There's the definition. Though faith does lend itself to ignorance, it doesn't require it. It is a belief that is independent (or in spite) of facts. This means faith can be held as the result of ignorance, it can be held in knowledge of evidence that supports it, and it can be held in knowledge of evidence that contradicts it.
I personally believe that faith generally is the result of ignorance. However, the thing people most strongly attach to faith, religion, is a different case. Religion is something people will believe no matter what the evidence, of lack thereof, confirms or denies. Religion is about emotions more than proof. Some people interpret this emotional connection as spiritual. That's fine.
In short, as long as you're not hurting or imposing your will on others with what you decide to believe, knock yourself out.
Last edited by chittydog (2006-07-22 09:52:52)
Inherrently true.
Even if its not faith in a religeon.
Even if its not faith in a religeon.
I believe, faith does indeed require ignorance but does not always result in a bad outcome.
eg. I have faith that my car will start next time I try it
Now, its a reliable car and all, but I've swallowed a lot of bourbon tonight and its cold, so being that the car is almost as old as I am, it may have problems...but it will probably still start, you know?
Maybe faith is an incomplete form of certainty, who knows, who cares its 5am...half an hour of karkand and then I'm fucking off to bed!
eg. I have faith that my car will start next time I try it
Now, its a reliable car and all, but I've swallowed a lot of bourbon tonight and its cold, so being that the car is almost as old as I am, it may have problems...but it will probably still start, you know?
Maybe faith is an incomplete form of certainty, who knows, who cares its 5am...half an hour of karkand and then I'm fucking off to bed!
Last edited by Pubic (2006-07-22 10:01:15)
faith in religion requires ignorance, and the level of ignorance grows as one grows more dedicated to religion and keeps it up later in life, now i'm only assuming that this topic is meant to be faith as in accordance with religion. I dont know the quote word for word but i believe it was Karl Marx who said "religion is the opium of the masses", which i think is a very accurate statement and pertains to this topic assuming were focuing on religion.
False. You have to be ignorant not to accept a religion.
You can't just make a statement like that and not give a reason. That is ignorant.Miller wrote:
False. You have to be ignorant not to accept a religion.
Edit: Miller provided his explanation below. I rescind my comment about him.
Last edited by chittydog (2006-07-22 11:39:09)
Thats very true.Horseman 77 wrote:
Show me someone who " Knows everything " and I will show you someone who has stopped learning.
Apparently the thread starter did that. But I'll go your way.
You can't see all the signs around you that there is a god and not accept it. Everything in this universe couldn't have been all made by chance alone. That's highly improbable and nearly impossible to have happened. I am a Christian, Jesus is my savior. In Genisis God created the universe im 7 days. Now, in the Bible it clearly states that God has no time, with that said. Those 7 days could have been hundreds, thousands, even millions of years in the making. Go study your body and start to wonder why everything works so smoothly and wonderfully. You eat with teeth to crush any type of food. You also have saliva to dissolve it a little. You all should know how the rest goes. You stop to think about other functions, then realize. This all can't happen by chance, its intelligent design. It's basically a miracle. No one can believe that chance brought this about. I have barely even scratched the surface on my point but I can't take the time to type it all out. Let me leave you with this: You must be ignorant not to accept religion.
You can't see all the signs around you that there is a god and not accept it. Everything in this universe couldn't have been all made by chance alone. That's highly improbable and nearly impossible to have happened. I am a Christian, Jesus is my savior. In Genisis God created the universe im 7 days. Now, in the Bible it clearly states that God has no time, with that said. Those 7 days could have been hundreds, thousands, even millions of years in the making. Go study your body and start to wonder why everything works so smoothly and wonderfully. You eat with teeth to crush any type of food. You also have saliva to dissolve it a little. You all should know how the rest goes. You stop to think about other functions, then realize. This all can't happen by chance, its intelligent design. It's basically a miracle. No one can believe that chance brought this about. I have barely even scratched the surface on my point but I can't take the time to type it all out. Let me leave you with this: You must be ignorant not to accept religion.
Last edited by Miller (2006-07-22 11:06:47)
Faith = Believeing something that cant be proven on the condition that what you believe is for a greater good.
Ignorance = Refusing to believe something in spite of irrefutable evidence.
So having faith does not = ignorance.
Ignorance = Refusing to believe something in spite of irrefutable evidence.
So having faith does not = ignorance.
Thank you for explaining your point. I take back my comment and will edit my post.
Actually, the thread-starter asked our opinions on whether we thought it was true or not, he didn't make a declaration one way or the other.
Anyway, just because I can't explain how something works or why something exists doesn't prove a god. My body works as smoothly as it does because I would die and not reproduce if it didn't. Why is your explanation any more valid than that of the pagans, animists, Native Americans, Hindus, etc.? None of them can offer any proof of their explanations and just because a person wrote something down long ago doesn't make it true. The Egyptians, Greeks, Carthaginians and Chinese all wrote their explanations of how everything came to be long before Jesus walked the Earth.
Please don't give me that intelligent design crap either. If you believe in a higher power, good for you. I'm actually jealous because I would sincerely love the comfort of believing in benevolent power and an afterlife, but that's another discussion. Believing in a religion is fine, but intelligent design is a load of bunk. You have teeth because creatures with teeth were able to chew through other creatures that had developed thick hides and the ones without teeth starved. You have eyes because something once had a small patch of skin that was more sensitive to light and was better able to find food because of that (plants and algae grow near the top of the ocean in case anyone misses why this is important).
I understand point you're trying to make, I just don't agree with it. Being combative about it just turns people off to your ideas. Calling people ignorant for not following your beliefs does the same. Would you still call me ignorant if I worshiped Zeus or the Earth?
Faith also has nothing to do with whether or not what you believe is for a greater good. Satanists have no interest in the greater good, yet most of them have just as much faith as the followers of any other religion.
rawls, I would edit your definition like this: Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, stupidity is refusing to believe something in spite of irrefutable evidence.
Finally guys, I'm not trying to be a jerk to anyone, I just would like people to be able to portray their views without being nasty or derogatory to those who don't agree. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not your friend.
Actually, the thread-starter asked our opinions on whether we thought it was true or not, he didn't make a declaration one way or the other.
Anyway, just because I can't explain how something works or why something exists doesn't prove a god. My body works as smoothly as it does because I would die and not reproduce if it didn't. Why is your explanation any more valid than that of the pagans, animists, Native Americans, Hindus, etc.? None of them can offer any proof of their explanations and just because a person wrote something down long ago doesn't make it true. The Egyptians, Greeks, Carthaginians and Chinese all wrote their explanations of how everything came to be long before Jesus walked the Earth.
Please don't give me that intelligent design crap either. If you believe in a higher power, good for you. I'm actually jealous because I would sincerely love the comfort of believing in benevolent power and an afterlife, but that's another discussion. Believing in a religion is fine, but intelligent design is a load of bunk. You have teeth because creatures with teeth were able to chew through other creatures that had developed thick hides and the ones without teeth starved. You have eyes because something once had a small patch of skin that was more sensitive to light and was better able to find food because of that (plants and algae grow near the top of the ocean in case anyone misses why this is important).
I understand point you're trying to make, I just don't agree with it. Being combative about it just turns people off to your ideas. Calling people ignorant for not following your beliefs does the same. Would you still call me ignorant if I worshiped Zeus or the Earth?
Faith also has nothing to do with whether or not what you believe is for a greater good. Satanists have no interest in the greater good, yet most of them have just as much faith as the followers of any other religion.
rawls, I would edit your definition like this: Ignorance is the lack of knowledge, stupidity is refusing to believe something in spite of irrefutable evidence.
Finally guys, I'm not trying to be a jerk to anyone, I just would like people to be able to portray their views without being nasty or derogatory to those who don't agree. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not your friend.
Last edited by chittydog (2006-07-22 11:41:18)
jonsimon wrote:
I'd say they're independent, but faith brings a strong tendency to grow ignorant