BF2S Forums Bush vetoes embryonic stem-cell bill

iNeedUrFace4Soup wrote:

Don't wear a condom, it's playing god. That sex was supposed to make a child.

The Classic Catholic vs. Protestant belief system.
"Every sperm is sacred, ever sperm is great. When a sperm gets wasted, God becomes quite irate." - Monty Python

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

Good job on not reading any of my posts besides that one. I have CONSTANTLY said that I am all for medical and technological advancement but I have to draw the line on creating life for the purpose of destroying it.

The thing is, they are creating life for the purposes of preserving the lives of thousands, perhaps millions, of others.

And it isn't a baby anymore than that white spot on your egg yolk is a chicken. Embryos are not fetuses.

{DsM}SongofWar[BoC] wrote:

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

Good job on not reading any of my posts besides that one. I have CONSTANTLY said that I am all for medical and technological advancement but I have to draw the line on creating life for the purpose of destroying it.

The thing is, they are creating life for the purposes of preserving the lives of thousands, perhaps millions, of others.

And it isn't a baby anymore than that white spot on your egg yolk is a chicken. Embryos are not fetuses.

Lol I refuse to eat eggs haha. That is just nasty.

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

College Station. That explains it, your an aggie keekeke

First off.. what the heck is "keekeke" ?

Second does it suprise you that I am a supporter of http://ehd.org  ?

But I also believe that this world is way over populated and it is vital for the continued survival of the human species that birth control is necessary, that futhering medical research is necessary, and that abortion to prevent pregnancy in the cases of incest, extreme underaged mothers (14 and below), rape and when the baby is malformed or the mother is at risk is absolutely necessary.

The prevention of life saving science due to over zealous religious beliefs is simply not an option.

Edit: ON another note. Holy shit this thread has exploded! Good to see some discussion!
Give me the karmic love.

Last edited by kilroy0097 (2006-07-20 04:21:25)

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

ok WTF is wrong w/ you... stem cell research can save lives, so even if your mother gets cancer you wouldnt allow her to use this technology to save her?

btw: i see sumthing from gundam seed comming... coordinators! ppl who have been genetically enhanced and they have higher mental and physical strength!

There are other ways to get the stem cells. Im all for that but not at the cost of creating life just to end it. You kids keep shouting about the benefits of stem cell research yet nothing has come of it yet. It could or could not cure anything. Im hopeful that people in wheel chairs can walk again with the help of this in the future as long as it dosent come at this cost.

yep, I loved that crap about "christopher reeve would still be alive if not for bush", the problem herein lies in that this bill allows for the harvesting of embryos, fertilized eggs, human beings, and until someone can prove definitively that you are not a human at conception, convevtional wisdom says to err on the side of, you know, not killing people. There are already.....inventories?.....of existing stem cells available for research, and the bush administration has funded more stem cell research than any other world administration to date, at least that was true last time this came up during the election, not sure if it still is, stem cell research is not banned, it's ongoing, what was knocked down was the ability to fertilize more eggs to make stem cells, as opposed to growing cells for research off the ones that already exist, and the miracles of stem cell research are just theories, there has never been any proof that anything can or will ever come of it (embryonic stem cells).

from jawbone article:

Tests have not been done to verify whether the bone was created by the blank-slate stem cells

from the heart article:

Injecting a person’s own stem cells directly into heart muscle appears safe and useful in .......
keywords," own stem cells"

again, stem cell research is not banned, just the practice of fertilizing eggs to create stem cells, thanks for getting your knee jerk reaction news from John Stewart

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-07-20 05:53:48)

the alternative research he refers to is research obtaining stem cells from placental blood


from the CNN article itself:

Bush signed the "fetal farming" legislation and urged Congress to fund alternative research.

"I'm disappointed that the House failed to authorize funding for this vital and ethical research," he said. "It makes no sense to say that you're in favor of finding cures for terrible diseases as quickly as possible and then block a bill that would authorize funding for promising and ethical stem-cell research."



                again, bush has not banned stem cell research, reading comprehension is your friend

its was codenamed danny.

danny da veto

This is a long read but I urge you to get through it if you can. This is after all the Serious Debate and Discussion section.

kr@cker wrote:

the alternative research he refers to is research obtaining stem cells from placental blood

from the CNN article itself:

Bush signed the "fetal farming" legislation and urged Congress to fund alternative research.

"I'm disappointed that the House failed to authorize funding for this vital and ethical research," he said. "It makes no sense to say that you're in favor of finding cures for terrible diseases as quickly as possible and then block a bill that would authorize funding for promising and ethical stem-cell research."

                again, bush has not banned stem cell research, reading comprehension is your friend

Correct. He is not banning stem cell research. He vetoed a bill in which scientists could obtain more stem embryonic stem cells for research. These specific type of stem cells are difficult to obtain and are in very small quantities. This bill would have increased the supply and hence increased the amount of research that could be done on this very important type of stem cell. Yes there are multiple kinds of stem cells. More on that below.

This is a long read but I urge you to get through it if you can. This is after all the Serious Debate and Discussion section.

kr@cker wrote:

can we close this now that it's obviously baseless and grounded in fallacy?

No. We can't and you need to try harder than that.

topthrill05 wrote:

Thank you Kracker.

Some of you are so quick to jump on the bash Bush band wagon that you haven't a clue what Bush vetoed. Whats better this is his first veto and look how many people bitch and moan. Even people calling our president names from other countries. Where does this fucking affect you. Thats right no where. So keep your mouth closed if you can't make an intelligent comment against it.

On top of that some of you act like this is the end of the world. As stated above if you read you will see how  idiotic some of you are.

Now I will re-read this thread and laugh at the pointless and groundless bashing of Bush.

This is true some people indeed join in the bashing of Bush simply because it's Bush. While I have to raise my hand and chant with the masses to remove this president, I have to also be able to demonstrate "Why" this president should be removed. And this thread, or at least the core of it, is a very good reason why Bush needs to run out of office tared and feathered.

------

For those unaware of the actual Bill that was passed, here is a link to the final version that was passed by Congress. I suggest reading it and notice it's careful verbage on what kind of stem cells could be harvested.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00810:   

If the search fails start another search from that site on 810 or HR 810.

Now on to the differences of stem cells and why the vetoing of this bill was so very bad for the future of medical research and the possible cure for many illnesses.

Now this might be above the understanding capacity of many who read these forums so I'm going to make it as simple an explanation as possible. If you want a more in depth explanation of all of this then please do a bit of research on stem cells, like I have, and read for yourself what it's all about. 

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/   

This is a good place to start but there is much more than what is explained there. You can also read the minutes on the H.R. 810 Bill and read even more about the process and what was thought on the issue. I have given you the link above. If you read through it's many pages (I read some not all because it's just damn long.) then it might make more sense to you. Please again make special note at the verbage and realize the deliberate limiting of the words to only embryos slated for destruction NOT embryos donated from humans for the purpose of research. Embryonic harvesting from humans for the purpose of research is still outlawed by International Consortium of Bioethics. However this can only be enforced by each countries government as they see fit.

The key word here is pluripotent cells or cells that are unformed by DNA and hence can latch onto existing DNA sequences and form themselves into new cells for whatever sequence it is mimicing. If attached to bone marrow cells they can generate new bone marrow in cancer patients after kimo and allow them to generate white and red blood cells again. If attached to nerve tissue it will reform into new nerve tissue perhaps fixing breaks or tears that might cause paralization. The uses go on and on. But first you need a pluripotent cell.

Embryonic stem cells are by their very nature pluripotent cells. They are the cells of a very very young embryo which have not formed into any sort of functional cell yet. These are plentiful in an embryo of early conception and hence are easily harvested. The result of such research on using embryonic stem cells is unrealized, hence the need for more research. Theoretically these type of stem cells could be used on anyone, anywhere and hence their versitility is why research needs to be done.

Adult stem cells are stem cells that exist in the human body after birth. They are labeled Adult but they don't really mean Adult in age but more in the age of the cell itself not the human in which the cell exists. A fully developed stem cell exists in varying quantities within the human body. As the body gets older the amount of adult stem cells decreases until older age when none exist and the body begins it decaying process which of course ends in death. These adult stem cells only exist in certain forms and can only repair either muscles and tissue, bones and bone marrow, brain cells and in some cases nerves. They must exist, they must be found and then harvests from various locations in the body. The methods in which to harvest are extremely evasive and is only used in extreme circumstances. The most common type of adult stem cell harvestation comes from Bone Marrow. This requires finding a match for the patient, drilling into a large bone, harvesting fresh stem cells and then injecting them into the bone marrow of the patient. Do more research on cancer if you want to learn more about this procedure.

Cord blood is human blood from the placenta and umbilical cord that is rich in hematopoietic stem cells. Cord blood is collected after the umbilical cord has been detached from the newborn, and utilized as a source of stem cells for transplantation. These hematopoietic stem cells are more commonly used to regenerate tissues, bone marrow and repair organs. Cord blood has at most a 25% chance of matching other family members and could also be used on them.

Placenta cells are specifically cells harvested from the 3 cell deep layer wall of the placenta after birth. It's a difficult procedure that is often done under desire from the parents and then stored for large fees just in case their child requires stem cells in their early years do to lukemia or other childhood life threatening illnesses. Currently it can only be used on the child from which the placenta was attached.

There is already a Bill passed that supports alternative research of stem cells that includes the usage of Adult, Cord Blood and Placenta stem cells. Their attempt is to create a pluripotent cell that can be used on any person of any age with a compatible DNA sequencing to the donor of the cell. This requires a nationwide doner network much like they have for organ transplants or bone marrow doners.

The reason why Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act H.R.810 was so important was due to increased ability to research embryonic stem cells and hence perhaps find a link between them and the other stem cells. An understand between all stem cells would lead to a better direction in how to implement cultured artifictially created stem cells within medicine and hence lead to curing many illnesses in humans. Perhaps through this research it might have been possible to harvest pluripotent cells from many different non-embryonic sources because of our knowledge to introduce them into new patients.

However that is not going to happen now because of the "theological" morality of it all. Religion has blinded much too many to much too many things.

This is why I am angry at the village idiot for being my president and for vetoing this bill.

Last edited by kilroy0097 (2006-07-20 07:49:01)

I did read the bill a few weeks ago, haven't read it since it was no doubt modified at the house and senate levels as always, but these modifications almost always happens in regards to the $$$ aspect of it, I am aware of the different types of stem cell research, as I have been following it as a matter of curiosity for years, the fact that your post is longer and is written with a condescending attitude does not make you correct, the fact remains that, until you can prove that a fertilized embryo is not a human, then we should err on the side of not killing humans for research purposes.

Fleder wrote:

The basic premise of the veto is to keep the door closed on the use of human offspring in the search for cures.

how many different times do you have to be told this for it to sink in? By how many different people?

you need to try harder than that, or just try at all for a start

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-07-20 08:09:05)

ignorance is the way of the dark side

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

Im against this for similar reasons that I am against abortion. Its creating life just to kill it. There are other ways to get stem cells than this and I am fully in support of that.

Here's the thing though.  Most stem cells come from fertility clinics.  When fertility clinics are trying to create a baby artificially they create more embryos than they need, in the hopes that one or more will actually be usable to implant in the mother.  The extras are disposed of.  Tossed out with the coffee grounds.  They weren't made in any way, shape for form with the intention of being used for research, just to give some poor couple a child they can love.

The question is, if that couple doesn't need the embryos and they're gong to get tossed out anyway, shouldn't we try to get SOME good from them?

And to an earlier post of Cyborg Ninja117's, I would wager that most people that are against stem cell research are Christians, I don't believe that most Christians are against stem cell research.  I know most Americans are in favor of it.

And finally, to the guy that was busting on Kilroy about being an Aggie, I believe there is a huge library on that campus.  Wanna know who it's named after?  George Bush.  So I think Kilroy's ok speaking out against W, as Texas A&M isn't exactly Cal Berkley or UW Madison.

Last edited by Chuckles (2006-07-20 09:00:10)

kr@cker wrote:

which bush?

The first, but does it matter?  My point is that because someone is from Texas A&M doesn't mean they're liberal.  I've always had Texas A&M down as a conservative school in my head.  Former Ag school, lots of oil money, etc. 

Now there are problems with being from A&M, but that's a whole other thread, and Chuy doesn't have that kind of bandwidth.  I'd hate to derail this thread any further.

for the record, I grow more agnostic every day