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2006-07-26 08:25:36
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France
I just want to step in and congratulate CamPoe (oops...typed CamPee first time around) for an appropriately named and interesting thread, even though he dropped in an did that himself.  I'd like to add I'm enjoying the discussion.

So why is this thread appropriately named?
Israel has always had a hornet's nest mentality.  How many times can you poke the nest before the hornets swarm?  Whether you assess the blame on Israel, Hamas or Hezbollahs...Israel is REALLY moving in.  Ever since I was a kid I heard that Israel would be fighting the Arabs at some point, so are we really that suprised?

2nd Point: Why has this thread lasted so long?
Simply put - both sides are fighting based on irreconcilable differences.  You can stop reading right here if you want.

The interesting thing is some of the answers are the same...

Here's some clarity:
Who country is justified in their actions?
-Palestians/Hamas/Hezbollahs - this is our land.
-Israel - this is our land.

Who initiated this issue?
-Israel - the Hamas/the Hezbollahs/years of terrorist attacks due to the unwillingness to accept Israel as a new neighbor.
-Hamas/Hezbollahs - years of inequalities, mistreatment via agressive Israeli defense posturing and action.

Targeting civilians?
-Hamas/Hezbollahs - Yes - shooting unguided rockets with ball bearings as an antipersonnel shrapnel into cities is NOT attacking the Israel Defense Force...it's attacking the citizens.
-Israel - Yes - not DIRECTLY targeting civilians, but have been indirectly targeting them by not reducing collateral damage.

Fighting dirty?
-Hezbollahs - Yes - shooting rockets at a civilian population is generally frowned upon.
-Israel - Well, Yes - this is a one-side affair.  Jets, tanks, etc.  They have to pound the area to quell guerrilla tactics, which is why you see so much damage.  The argument for yes is they have gotten a yellow card from the UN.

Is Religion part of this?
Nope - this a long running border dispute.  Religion in this case intensifies the problems by increasing discriminatory behavior and providing everyone with "my fight is just" for motivation, but it's not the cause.

Now, here's the rub:
What makes this so interesting is that everyone knew an Arab-Israeli confrontation would eventually happen.  All arguments supporting one side can be countered with almost the identical argument from the other side.  The only thing left is DEGREES - who's more wrong.  Well, both sides are wrong in my opinion, so I will continue to watch the unresolvable debate thread develop.

I've seen "put them in a box and let them fight it out".  Here's another one just as impossible - combine Israel, Gaza, & Lebanon into one country.  The ownership of the area then becomes everyone's...

Last edited by Pug (2006-07-26 11:14:51)

2006-07-26 08:29:42
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6806|Southeastern USA
I don't agree with you on the religion point, the koran is a bloody book calling for the death of all infidels, and cultivates a hatred of jews in particular, if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow, the same groups would start killing someone else

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-07-26 08:30:30)

2006-07-26 08:36:36
spastic bullet
would like to know if you are on crack
+77|6798|vancouver
The problem is thinking you can have a democratic state that also favours one particular religion or group.  You can't.  End of story.
2006-07-26 08:39:48
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France

kr@cker wrote:

I don't agree with you on the religion point, the koran is a bloody book calling for the death of all infidels, and cultivates a hatred of jews in particular, if Israel ceased to exist tomorrow, the same groups would start killing someone else
"Religion in this case intensifies the problems by increasing discriminatory behavior and providing everyone with "my fight is just" for motivation, but it's not the cause."

Specifically, there is a rationale and justification process for naming an "infidel".  This is separate from religion.  Example - Muslims killing other Muslims.  I'm pretty sure the Koran doesn't say Muslins are infidels.
2006-07-26 08:41:46
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France

spastic bullet wrote:

The problem is thinking you can have a democratic state that also favours one particular religion or group.  You can't.  End of story.
Sure, just as impossible to nuke the entire area as well.  The point is it's just as ridiculous as nuking the whole area or letting them fight to the last man.
2006-07-26 08:47:06
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6806|Southeastern USA
they've been killing each other and infidels long before Israel was re-established
2006-07-26 09:11:32
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France

kr@cker wrote:

they've been killing each other and infidels long before Israel was re-established
I'm talking about the "infidel selection process".
2006-07-26 09:19:35
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6992|California

Pug wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

they've been killing each other and infidels long before Israel was re-established
I'm talking about the "infidel selection process".
Where's the process?

Non-Muslim = infidel

Convert or be killed, end of story.
2006-07-26 09:39:07
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France

Erkut.hv wrote:

Pug wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

they've been killing each other and infidels long before Israel was re-established
I'm talking about the "infidel selection process".
Where's the process?

Non-Muslim = infidel

Convert or be killed, end of story.
Interesting...Explain why my muslim co-worker is not killing me right now.  Explain also why he's not killing himself for being an American.

Let's not derail - I'm responding to "the Koran is a bloody book calling for the death of all infidels".
2006-07-26 09:42:27
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

Erkut.hv wrote:

Pug wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

they've been killing each other and infidels long before Israel was re-established
I'm talking about the "infidel selection process".
Where's the process?

Non-Muslim = infidel

Convert or be killed, end of story.
Hamas are a pretty bigoted bunch and have a lot of contradictory shit in their own charter but I would like to highlight a segment of Article 31 of the Hamas Covenant (lifted from Wiki):

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that."

I just thought this was interesting and doesn't exactly tie in with the 'You must die infidel' stereotype.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-26 09:42:47)

2006-07-26 10:13:08
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6806|Southeastern USA
"or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts"

this leaves the door wide open for a slew of atrocities, especially in regards to "it's efforts" being the complete destruction of Israel among other things

"Under the wing of Islam" and "Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam"
meaning we must be ruled by an ilsamist state for our own good, to resist is to die

keep in mind the Koran also states that if you lie to your enemy for the purpose of defeating your enemy then you have not lied in the eyes of allah, basically meaning that if you are an "infidel" you cannot trust a single word from the "peace loving nation of islam"
2006-07-26 10:15:11
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6901
but cameron, those wonderful words in the Hamas charter are just that, words.  Actions speak louder and their actions dont leave the average person to believe thats what Hamas really wants.  Has Hamas even officially recognized Israel as a state yet?
2006-07-26 10:28:45
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

but cameron, those wonderful words in the Hamas charter are just that, words.  Actions speak louder and their actions dont leave the average person to believe thats what Hamas really wants.  Has Hamas even officially recognized Israel as a state yet?
Not yet but they took baby steps towards such an act just before that Palestinian family got shelled on the beach in Gaza. THeir covenant is pretty tough on recognition of Israel (understatement of the century).
2006-07-26 10:33:10
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

kr@cker wrote:

"or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts"

this leaves the door wide open for a slew of atrocities, especially in regards to "it's efforts" being the complete destruction of Israel among other things

"Under the wing of Islam" and "Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam"
meaning we must be ruled by an ilsamist state for our own good, to resist is to die

keep in mind the Koran also states that if you lie to your enemy for the purpose of defeating your enemy then you have not lied in the eyes of allah, basically meaning that if you are an "infidel" you cannot trust a single word from the "peace loving nation of islam"
Yeah - the context it came from (with respect to the 'hamper its moves' comment) is that an islamic state must exist on what they regard as Palestine (i.e. Israel + The West Bank + Gaza). Anyone standing in the way of that goal is fair game according to their covenant. They have no expansionist rhetoric in their covenant - it only pertains to Israel so they aren't looking to Islamicize Europe or any of that bogus claptrap.

The latter comments you refer to again pertain only to the land they seek - not the entire world being 'under the wing of Islam'. It would be similar to Saudi Arabia - staunchly regulated life based on the Q'uran (sounds lovely, NOT). Their tolerance for other religions and 'as was seen in the past' reference probably comes from Saladin who allowed full freedom of religion for all while he reigned in the middle east (which was about a millennium ago).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-26 10:34:12)

2006-07-26 10:38:02
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6817

CameronPoe wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

Pug wrote:


I'm talking about the "infidel selection process".
Where's the process?

Non-Muslim = infidel

Convert or be killed, end of story.
Hamas are a pretty bigoted bunch and have a lot of contradictory shit in their own charter but I would like to highlight a segment of Article 31 of the Hamas Covenant (lifted from Wiki):

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that."

I just thought this was interesting and doesn't exactly tie in with the 'You must die infidel' stereotype.
Actions speak louder than words. Just because it on paper doent make it true.
2006-07-26 10:39:53
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

rawls2 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:


Where's the process?

Non-Muslim = infidel

Convert or be killed, end of story.
Hamas are a pretty bigoted bunch and have a lot of contradictory shit in their own charter but I would like to highlight a segment of Article 31 of the Hamas Covenant (lifted from Wiki):

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that."

I just thought this was interesting and doesn't exactly tie in with the 'You must die infidel' stereotype.
Actions speak louder than words. Just because it on paper doent make it true.
I acknowledge that.
2006-07-26 10:42:29
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6806|Southeastern USA
I'm referring to the broadeer philosophy of the koran, you MUST attempt to convert, those that don't convert MUST die
2006-07-26 11:00:00
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6812

kr@cker wrote:

I'm referring to the broadeer philosophy of the koran, you MUST attempt to convert, those that don't convert MUST die
I wouldn't get too hung up on details of the Koran. I can drag out a list of equally retarded quotes from the torah or the bible if I took the time. All I'll say is don't tar ALL muslims with the one brush. There are moderates in Islam and extremists in Islam, exactly the same as there is in christianity and judaism. The difference is that extremism there is a lot more violent because they haven't progressed to our phase of civilisation yet. Poverty is a rich breeding ground for religion and an even richer breeding ground for extremist ideas of all kinds. Affluence breeds non-chalance. We're rich and content so we don't give a fuck. Some cave dweller out in Afghanistan suffering from permanent diarrhoea isn't exactly going to be the most enlightened of chaps is he? The conditions he is living in are dictating his warped view of the world. Throw a little bit of money Islam's way and those guys won't even remember what all the fuss was about. It's like Catholic V Protestan wars in the middle ages. We've done all our mindless and pointless warring at this stage. They're still playing catch-up. The entire world isn't progressing at the same pace or to the same tune. Just want people to note that generalisations are bad. Moderate Islam is like Christianity - disregarding the embarrassing parts of their respective 'good books' and preaching tolerance and compassion.
2006-07-26 11:03:19
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France

kr@cker wrote:

I'm referring to the broadeer philosophy of the koran, you MUST attempt to convert, those that don't convert MUST die
Well, I'm no expert on the Koran or religions in general but I would expect if this was indeed true than the muslins cannot live with anyone, ever.  I would have expected them to be extinguished by now because of the inability for the rest of the world to convert.  Logically war-like societies are eradicated.  If this ideology is true shouldn't we be protecting overselves as non-muslims?  Why do I always hear the non-extremist muslims say "that is just one branch" of Islam?  Do I need to go throw Kareem Abul-Jabbar in jail?

Logically your statement cannot be applied to the entire muslim population.  Which is my point in the first place about the infidel selection process - someone has rationalized this - someone has rationalized the Koran to mean this.  This is not the entire Islamic society.

In addition, muslims fight muslims but have the Koran in common.

Anyone muslim here or can someone settle this?  I'm going with logic not intimate knowledge of the Koran or the Islamic religion.
2006-07-26 11:11:36
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6806|Southeastern USA
I myself can't speak for the torah, but I did read up on the koran, but it's been about ten years, actually a little more, as for the christian bible, the new testament provided for the reformation of the faith away from it's harsher, more sexist standards, but I still can't recall anywhere in the old testament calling for the open slaughter of opposing religions or peoples
2006-07-26 11:24:25
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6992|California

Pug wrote:

Logically your statement cannot be applied to the entire muslim population.  Which is my point in the first place about the infidel selection process - someone has rationalized this - someone has rationalized the Koran to mean this.  This is not the entire Islamic society.
Hear that...... that's sound of Muslims standing up against extremists.

Funny, I don't hear anything either. Seems like everyone except Muslims are standing up for them defending their faith as peaceful.

Never seem to hear Muslim groups taking action to make sure their faith isn't slandered.

That's why I use a broad brush to paint them all, because I never hear them say anything diferent. Always guilty white people jumping up to defend them, gotta keep the PC machine rolling.
2006-07-26 11:42:18
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6799|Texas - Bigger than France

Erkut.hv wrote:

Pug wrote:

Logically your statement cannot be applied to the entire muslim population.  Which is my point in the first place about the infidel selection process - someone has rationalized this - someone has rationalized the Koran to mean this.  This is not the entire Islamic society.
Hear that...... that's sound of Muslims standing up against extremists.

Funny, I don't hear anything either. Seems like everyone except Muslims are standing up for them defending their faith as peaceful.

Never seem to hear Muslim groups taking action to make sure their faith isn't slandered.
Tolerating these activities has brought about Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Lebanon.  I'd just like to see for once some proactive solutions instead of the circle of inevitable violence.  The muslims are guilty of tolerating this behavior.  It really pisses me off.
2006-07-26 11:45:40
RicardoBlanco
The English
+177|6825|Oxford

kr@cker wrote:

I myself can't speak for the torah, but I did read up on the koran, but it's been about ten years, actually a little more, as for the christian bible, the new testament provided for the reformation of the faith away from it's harsher, more sexist standards, but I still can't recall anywhere in the old testament calling for the open slaughter of opposing religions or peoples
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm

..nice!
2006-07-26 11:58:46
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6889|949

Erkut.hv wrote:

Hear that...... that's sound of Muslims standing up against extremists.

Funny, I don't hear anything either. Seems like everyone except Muslims are standing up for them defending their faith as peaceful.

Never seem to hear Muslim groups taking action to make sure their faith isn't slandered.

That's why I use a broad brush to paint them all, because I never hear them say anything diferent. Always guilty white people jumping up to defend them, gotta keep the PC machine rolling.
Just because it isn't publicized doesn't mean they don't stand up for them.  Go to some Islamic Foundations and see what they have to say.  Remember after 9/11, all the American-Islamic societies quick to condemn the terrorist acts?  Perhaps you don't want to listen, that is the reason.  Please don't use ridiculous logic like that to dismiss a whole group of people.
2006-07-26 12:00:47
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6806|Southeastern USA
that sites hlarious, i love Nail his head! " and he fastened it to the ground", but these seem to be recollections of battles and such, not how to manuals (except the law ones) much of the old testament is actuallly historical record, and what i read on that site was one of the lamest attempts to take scripture out of context, "Kill the blacks!" for instance, you are led to believe that the bible says to kill people becaue they are black, when the scripture they quote only says that god "smote" the ethiopians because they were attacking with over 1000000 troops, not because they were black


for what it's worth, I'm not a christian, the more my family "follows the lord" the less they have to show for it, but I love ancient warfare (nearly burned out my Rome: total war cd) and have read the bible alot for it's historical accounts of such battles, haven't read it in years, I should start again

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