BF2S Forums Israeli Heavy-Handedness

CameronPoe wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

damn it, palestine was never a country!!!

Damn it Palestine always should have been a country. Damn ottomans and israelis!!!! What are you suggesting? That they cease to exist? That they go book into a hotel somewhere?

The sovereign state of Israel (a nation in the modern sense) never existed pre-1948 either.

true that true that

but

it exists now though.  the world is filled with millions of "should haves".  I try to be as pragmatic as possible without sounding like an asshole.  But these problems occured before I was born and will continue to happen after I die.  My goal in life is to try to keep a happy lil slice of "status quo"  over there, with the pales seeing some kind of nationhood, but all under the close and watchful eye of a responsible (well for the most part,  little up in the air on the responisbility of Israeli govt right now, but then again when you get a blank check from the US.......) Israel.  Lets face cold stone facts here, no matter how westernized our media reports the incidents and situations over there,  martyrs are wrong, suicide bombers are wrong and there is no way the average person could defend the actions of thoses peices of shit without chipping a peice of their soul away

in that sense I believe the Pales have been wronged, but moreso by the members of their own communities.  In my  opinion, there isnt an local regional entity in the middle east that could defeat israel in a conventional or guerrila conflict.  And those individuals that try to achieve nationhood through useless violence, forcing a vengeful Israel to act, are the ones that are huring their cause the most.  I believe they are the ones that stand in the way for a Palestinian nation.  they just cant want win with grenades and RPG's.  and in the end its the poor family  that has no choice but to live there, paying the price.

alpinestar wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Nice way to tar all muslims as Hezbollah supporters. Nice.

Pretty easy to do when Muslims don't condemn the views held by people such as him.

Also, to the poster of the images, here's a news flash.

War sucks, people die. There is nothing pretty about war.

I agree war sucks but so far it has only sucked for the people of lebanon ..

So, you would be happier if there were pictures from both sides?  Israel has more precise weapons, therefore more casualties...

I call it the Bigger Dog theory, if you have a military power near you that can obliterate you within a matter of days, if they choose.  Why would you choose to attack them.  Even a chihuahua knows not to attack a pit bull.


Edit: Spelling

Last edited by |AIA| DAS (2006-07-24 12:35:16)

alpinestar wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

in that sense I believe the Pales have been wronged, but moreso by the members of their own communities.  In my  opinion, there isnt an local regional entity in the middle east that could defeat israel in a conventional or guerrila conflict.  And those individuals that try to achieve nationhood through useless violence, forcing a vengeful Israel to act, are the ones that are huring their cause the most.  I believe they are the ones that stand in the way for a Palestinian nation.  they just cant want win with grenades and RPG's.  and in the end its the poor family  that has no choice but to live there, paying the price.

Yup, all the dead Lebonese can thank Hezbollah for bringing the fight to innocent civilians. The Palestinians can thank their leaders for squandering millions in aid that they have received.

And who do we thank for the fireworks ?

the militants that continue to use guerilla tactics, thats who.

rawls2 wrote:

It all comes down to leadership. The US and Israel have good responsible leaders that know how to mange money and administer it through out the land for the benefit of all. Those poor ME countries have poor leaders who spend their money on lavish palaces and ridiculous statues instead of spreading the wealth to the common folk. As a result, you have a great disparity in the "haves" and the "have nots" which causes conflict. And who gets blamed for the conflict, the west of course.

Whats worse is the people of those poor ME countries treat their leaders as heroes and gods. Go figure

Rawls - I would never put 'responsible' in the same sentence as Israel ever. Do you realise how much more aid Israel gets than all other middle eastern nations combined? And do you realise how many of these cruel arab dictatorships and oligarchies we in the west prop up ourselves? We are as much to blame as the leaders of these countries. Saudi Arabia and Egypt and countries like this aren't given any hassle with respect to 'democracy' because it suits us to have them led by US/Euro/Russo-puppets. If you levelled the playing field - no aid to anyone - Israel would not survive: by weight of numbers alone they would fail. The problem is the odds are stacked gigantically in their favour because zionists in DC bankroll the state of Israel.

You seem to think Israel is some utopian state too. I've been there - it has a rich-poor gap wider than a lot of nations, wider probably than in the US (which is saying something given the US welfare system).

The EU has no influence diplomatically on Israel. I seriously hope that the EU gets a fucking clue and a conscience and outlaws EU-Israel trade. An embargo a la USA-Cuba. We have our own privately promoted embargos of Israeli goods and services here in Ireland but something official and legally binding would be better. Israel need to pull their fucking horns in and start acting like decent human beings.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-24 13:29:23)

does it matter if Palestine was never technically a country, a group of people who called themselves Palestinians lived there and they had borders to their territory, it was still their land whether it was written in a book or not, it doesn't matter, it was still taken from them. so you are suggesting that simply because it wasn't technically written down, then it is fine to remove them from their land and their houses. don't assume that just because it wasn't technically a country that they didn't still have houses that they lived in before the Israelis came along and took it. my argument still stands.

Fld_Mrsl_Arts wrote:

kk man. but i am still strongly against Israel and their over reaction to what seems like every small attack. It is disproportionate and i think that they should be prosecuted for their actions. what side do you take on that bubbalo?

You guys just don't understand that these small attacks are going on for a few years now, and the Israeli regime decided that it isn't going to take anymore shit from Hezbollah or from any other terrorist group. I doubt that every reasonable regime will agree to take the same crap we have taken from these guys. Prior to the IDF's attack on Lebanon we haven't done much after their attacks and mostly didn't retaliate. This approch is fruitless and fits Hezbollah's interests. You guys are short sighted. The fact is that this conflict with the Hezbollah has began 20 years ago or so, and is more complexed than you think or see on CNN.

CameronPoe wrote:

What I will say though is that the comments made by Ariel Sharon that i mentioned do reflect the kind of person he is and he is the elected head of state of Israel (Ehud Olmert not actually having been elected). So the Israeli people on the ground cannot completely absolve themselves of all of the actions of such characters (and their repercussions). I don't condone Hezbollah's shelling of Israel btw.

Those quotes do reflect the kind of person Sharon was. He wanted power so badly and turned to the extreme right winged citizens of Israel. He was a politician. After he was elected he has done alot of things that didn't reflect the character you think he had. He has made alot of decision which suited people from the left wing of Israel's political map - He has ordered the IDF and the Israeli security forces to restrain even though each day a club or a buss were bombed, just in order to start talking to the palestinians. After a month and several big acts of terrorism, the Israeli government understood that there is no one to talk to on the other side and fucked these guys tottaly. Moreover Sharon has decided almost by himself to leave gaza strip, and that caused him alot of headache. He suffered alot, but did the right thing in his eyes. A friendly and peaceful move no doubts from the man you concider a terrorist. (The palestinians responded in bombarding Israeli settlements and attacking IDF troops by the way.) Even though he has made alot of mistakes, especially when the IDF got inside Lebanon for the first time, and was responsible for a massacre, which raised alot of voices in Israel.

herrr_smity wrote:

A gift from the children of Israel
To the children of Lebanon

alpinestar wrote:

Thanks Jews ?

Warning graphic content!!!!

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14069.htm

So many of you still think U.N is doing bullshit job ?
And Oh I almost forgot thank Bush for the express delivery of the bombs for his friends at israel

1. Nice pics. Maybe us Israelis should degrade ourselves like the Lebanese and show you some pics that we got here? Nah, I think that it is just a foul play.
2. If the UN had done its job, Israel wouldn't have to face that situation in the first place.
3. Bush sent the Israeli army bunker piercing bombs. I doubt the Israeli army will harm civilians with these.

CameronPoe wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

damn it, palestine was never a country!!!

Damn it Palestine always should have been a country. Damn ottomans and israelis!!!! What are you suggesting? That they cease to exist? That they go book into a hotel somewhere?

The sovereign state of Israel (a nation in the modern sense) never existed pre-1948 either.

1. Palestine was never a country. Palestine got its name after the Roman seized the area. After they made it a province they named it Palestine (named after the Philistines, an ancient people which was long gone by the time the Romans got to the area) in order to detach the Jews they enslaved/conquered from their origion (I'm sure you all know the military maxim devide and conquer). 1800 years later (more or less) The British and the French took over the area and devided it into mandats. The British called their mandat (over what we know today as Jordan and Israel) Palestine after the name of the Roman province. The Arabs have never seen themselves as Palestinians before and considered the area as the southern part of Syria. Because the middle east was devided into many mandats the "palestinians" came up with a new identity, and that is how the Palestinian people was born.
2. The Palestinians had a few chances for creating a state of their own. Prior to the establishment of Israel they were offered a state, but they refused that offer because they didn't want the Jews to stay within Palestine. Between 48 and 67 the Jordanians and the Egyptians ruled Gaza strip and the west bank, and didn't give the Palestinians their own state. Surely you can't blame us for that. In our time the Israeli regime is willing to make alot of moves with nothing in return from the Palestinians. Even though, they are still being retarded and think they can drive us to the see.
3. Ye, there should be a Palestinian state.

Erkut.hv wrote:

Pretty easy to do when Muslims don't condemn the views held by people such as him.

Actually, a few Arabic regimes that untill now didn't support Israel's acts condemned Hezbollah and supported Israel. Even though, most of the muslim world still think Israel should be annihilated. I've brought a vedio describing exactly why they act as they do. There is a Lebanese woman talking there. You should watch it, it sharpens up things.

alpinestar wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

I agree war sucks but so far it has only sucked for the people of lebanon ..

Clearly, you don't know this conflict to the depth, and just familiar with popular journalism which never gives the full picture. Spare me that ignorance.

CameronPoe wrote:

Well for a start it's a shia militia. Shia don't tend to get on with Sunnis,

When it comes to hating Israel/Jews they are united. The Hamas movement is formed of Sunnis and they are cooperating with Hezbollah.

to put it mildly. So I would find it strange if ALL muslims supported their actions,

The majority do support the Hezbollah

not to mention the fact that most muslims are reasonable people just like you and me.

Yes, and some of them hate Israel and Jews so badly, and that is so normal. No, they are not reasonable, most of them aren't, except for the intelectuals who know a thing or two.

CameronPoe wrote:

It's true that the means by which the Palestinians fight the Israelis are dishonourable and deplorable and one cannot condone them. But, violence aside, one must remember that the cause of the Palestinian people is just - the Palestinians have been wronged, suffered an injustice

Israel has a part in the injustice made to the Palestinians, but these people itself and its Arabic "brothers" were also a part of that problem, and contributed alot to the situation which they have today.

- I don't think we should deny them their right to justice based on the atrocities of groups like Hamas.

I do think that when the Palestinian public decides to elect Hamas for its leadership, it should expect a proper response from the Israelis and the continuation of the struggle between us and them. They knew these guys are terrorists, but they voted for them anyhow. That is fine, but now is the time for the Palestinians to pay the price. Hamas' behavior wasn't foreseen, but it was quite a solid option that they will deterior the state of the area, and the Palestinian voters gambled on them, and now they pay the price, just like every other nation who votes for a government that fucks the public's businesses.

rawls2 wrote:

It all comes down to leadership. The US and Israel have good responsible leaders that know how to mange money and administer it through out the land for the benefit of all. Those poor ME countries have poor leaders who spend their money on lavish palaces and ridiculous statues instead of spreading the wealth to the common folk. As a result, you have a great disparity in the "haves" and the "have nots" which causes conflict. And who gets blamed for the conflict, the west of course.

Whats worse is the people of those poor ME countries treat their leaders as heroes and gods. Go figure

Actually, it isn't true for all cases. Not every Arab country spend money for palaces and statues of leaders.

CameronPoe wrote:

Rawls - I would never put 'responsible' in the same sentence as Israel ever. Do you realise how much more aid Israel gets than all other middle eastern nations combined?

Israel gets American financial aid in forms of weapons and war machinese, and deserves that funding, since it is surrounded by people who wish it destroyed. If Israel was a weak country it was destroyed years ago.

And do you realise how many of these cruel arab dictatorships and oligarchies we in the west prop up ourselves? We are as much to blame as the leaders of these countries. Saudi Arabia and Egypt and countries like this aren't given any hassle with respect to 'democracy'

If Egypt was a democracy, it would have attacked Israel and would have declared war on the whole western world.

because it suits us to have them led by US/Euro/Russo-puppets.

I wouldn't call the Saudis puppets.

If you levelled the playing field - no aid to anyone - Israel would not survive:

Actually, it did in the past, in more desperate times in which there were only 600,000 Jews in palestine with no regular army and tons of Arabic militias and Arab armies armed with tanks and war planes of American and British designs. We would survive anyhow.

by weight of numbers alone they would fail.

Didn't happen in the past.

The problem is the odds are stacked gigantically in their favour because zionists in DC bankroll the state of Israel.

You seem to think Israel is some utopian state too.

LOL, I must agree, it's anything but utopian.

I've been there - it has a rich-poor gap wider than a lot of nations, wider probably than in the US.

The gap between the rich and the poor is great, but not as you claim it is. The gap between the rich and the poor in the US is far worse. Israel is a socialist country in which you pay alot of taxes so the poor levels can survive.

The EU has no influence diplomatically on Israel.

You are wrong.

I seriously hope that the EU gets a fucking clue and a conscience and outlaws EU-Israel trade. An embargo a la USA-Cuba. We have our own privately promoted embargos of Israeli goods and services here in Ireland but something official and legally binding would be better. Israel need to pull their fucking horns in and start acting like decent human beings.

Yep, Israel should take the things that the Arabs throw at it with pleasure, and thank them. In return Israel should help the terrorist in getting more weapons. Moreover, Israel should maintain the status quo in the northen border with Lebanon and accept being spanked every now and then, because that is the job of soveregin nations - they should let terrorist orgenizations which aims at the killing of civilians do their jobs. No, the Israeli army's role is not to provide an answer to the incredible threat the Arabs give the country. The Israeli troops should give humanitarian aid to people all over the world. NO! Israel MUST be narrow minded and short sighted. After all, it isn't reasonable to see this conflict in a long term prespective. Israel should keep its mouth shut just like in the past on many occasions. The Israeli army must not react when attacked, just like in the past, even though this way of acting achieved absolutely NOTHING but the killing of more Israelis and the growth of terrorist groups. The UN peacekeeping task force should keep on sitting on its ass and being payed for it. Yes, that will solve everything.
Yes, I'm sorry that we Israelis are not decent human beings. After all, we have tried many ways of acting, including full restrain. Neither way worked in the past. According to common logic and human common basic sense Israel should act on other ways, like the way it is acting now, but the superior Irish minds and the great millitary tacticians and political minds of the great republic of Ireland know better, because they are above human logic. Tell me, Cameron oh holy lord of wisdom and morality, in which way that has failed in the past and cause damage to Israel should we act now?

WAKE UP FFS, WE HAVE TRIED ALMOST EVERYTHING BUT ATTACKING LEBANON WITH OUR NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES OR COMMITING LARGE SCALE GENOCIDE WW2 STYLE, AND AS IT SEEMS ISRAEL IS DOING THE ONLY THING WHICH MIGHT END THIS SITUATION.

I'd like to start by praising you for seeming to me to be reasonably well-rounded Israeli individual. I did meet many when I was in Israel, I don't blindly see all Israelis as bad in the same way that you don't appear to believe all arabs to be intrinsically bad - extremists on both sides are the problem. I don't agree with all of your points but do on some - you make rational points by and large. I'll proceed to counter the last point.

GIJew88 wrote:

Yep, Israel should take the things that the Arabs throw at it with pleasure, and thank them. In return Israel should help the terrorist in getting more weapons. Moreover, Israel should maintain the status quo in the northen border with Lebanon and accept being spanked every now and then, because that is the job of soveregin nations - they should let terrorist orgenizations which aims at the killing of civilians do their jobs. No, the Israeli army's role is not to provide an answer to the incredible threat the Arabs give the country. The Israeli troops should give humanitarian aid to people all over the world. NO! Israel MUST be narrow minded and short sighted. After all, it isn't reasonable to see this conflict in a long term prespective. Israel should keep its mouth shut just like in the past on many occasions. The Israeli army must not react when attacked, just like in the past, even though this way of acting achieved absolutely NOTHING but the killing of more Israelis and the growth of terrorist groups. The UN peacekeeping task force should keep on sitting on its ass and being payed for it. Yes, that will solve everything.
Yes, I'm sorry that we Israelis are not decent human beings. After all, we have tried many ways of acting, including full restrain. Neither way worked in the past. According to common logic and human common basic sense Israel should act on other ways, like the way it is acting now, but the superior Irish minds and the great millitary tacticians and political minds of the great republic of Ireland know better, because they are above human logic. Tell me, Cameron oh holy lord of wisdom and morality, in which way that has failed in the past and cause damage to Israel should we act now?

WAKE UP FFS, WE HAVE TRIED ALMOST EVERYTHING BUT ATTACKING LEBANON WITH OUR NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES OR COMMITING LARGE SCALE GENOCIDE WW2 STYLE, AND AS IT SEEMS ISRAEL IS DOING THE ONLY THING WHICH MIGHT END THIS SITUATION.

I have stated several times that I don't disagree with Israel's right to respond. Lord knows I must have made that point about 20 fucking times on this thread and on other threads. I don't pretend to have foolproof answers. I am bringing an argument to the table and offering little in the way of solution. That is true. One thing I would have done if I was in the authority responsible for Israeli military tactics would have been to not strike absolutley as immediately as Israel did, I would not have struck as far north as Beirut (I mean come on they don't have rockets that can fire that far) and I would have mounted a ground invasion - fighting Hezbollah mano a mano (something that is now happening but, in my mind, should have been the primary course of action). I'm sorry if you feel I have been offensive but sometimes anger clouds the language I use on this forum.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-24 16:18:16)

CameronPoe wrote:

I'd like to start by praising you for seeming to me to be reasonably well-rounded Israeli individual. I did meet many when I was in Israel, I don't blindly see all Israelis as bad in the same way that you don't appear to believe all arabs to be intrinsically bad - extremists on both sides are the problem. I don't agree with all of your points but do on some - you make rational points by and large. I'll proceed to counter the last point.

GIJew88 wrote:

Yep, Israel should take the things that the Arabs throw at it with pleasure, and thank them. In return Israel should help the terrorist in getting more weapons. Moreover, Israel should maintain the status quo in the northen border with Lebanon and accept being spanked every now and then, because that is the job of soveregin nations - they should let terrorist orgenizations which aims at the killing of civilians do their jobs. No, the Israeli army's role is not to provide an answer to the incredible threat the Arabs give the country. The Israeli troops should give humanitarian aid to people all over the world. NO! Israel MUST be narrow minded and short sighted. After all, it isn't reasonable to see this conflict in a long term prespective. Israel should keep its mouth shut just like in the past on many occasions. The Israeli army must not react when attacked, just like in the past, even though this way of acting achieved absolutely NOTHING but the killing of more Israelis and the growth of terrorist groups. The UN peacekeeping task force should keep on sitting on its ass and being payed for it. Yes, that will solve everything.
Yes, I'm sorry that we Israelis are not decent human beings. After all, we have tried many ways of acting, including full restrain. Neither way worked in the past. According to common logic and human common basic sense Israel should act on other ways, like the way it is acting now, but the superior Irish minds and the great millitary tacticians and political minds of the great republic of Ireland know better, because they are above human logic. Tell me, Cameron oh holy lord of wisdom and morality, in which way that has failed in the past and cause damage to Israel should we act now?

WAKE UP FFS, WE HAVE TRIED ALMOST EVERYTHING BUT ATTACKING LEBANON WITH OUR NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES OR COMMITING LARGE SCALE GENOCIDE WW2 STYLE, AND AS IT SEEMS ISRAEL IS DOING THE ONLY THING WHICH MIGHT END THIS SITUATION.

I have stated several times that I don't disagree with Israel's right to respond. Lord knows I must have made that point about 20 fucking times on this thread and on other threads. I don't pretend to have foolproof answers. I am bringing an argument to the table and offering little in the way of solution. That is true. One thing I would have done if I was in the authority responsible for Israeli military tactics would have been to not strike absolutley as immediately as Israel did, I would not have struck as far north as Beirut (I mean come on they don't have rockets that can fire that far) and I would have mounted a ground invasion - fighting Hezbollah mano a mano (something that is now happening but, in my mind, should have been the primary course of action). I'm sorry if you feel I have been offensive but sometimes anger clouds the language I use on this forum.

You have no understanding of war. You think its all glorious mano y mano fighting. Israel has every right to strike as far north as they need. There are things called supply lines that need to be disrupted. If the supplies are disrupted then there arent any missles for Hezbollah to continue firing. As for the ground invasion that is just stupid. You have to soften up a target before you move in. Thats just common sense. I guess we shouldnt have shelled and bombed normandy before we moved in because that wasnt macho enough for you.

Last edited by -=NHB=- Bananahands (2006-07-24 20:55:26)

One thing to say is that if jews move to lebanon and get near syria, they will storm in and after them Iran and behind Iran ofcourse the soviet military might, Jews do not know what they are fucking doing Let's just hope they have some sanity left

And Russia has enough problems of it's own.  They gave up on playing global superpower a long time ago.

delta4bravo*nl* wrote:

alpinestar wrote:

One thing to say is that if jews move to lebanon and get near syria, they will storm in and after them Iran and behind Iran ofcourse the soviet military might, Jews do not know what they are fucking doing Let's just hope they have some sanity left

Israel can handle themselfses.
Iran wont interviene and syria wont do anything, they will only do something if ther border is violated..
but then again, syria is no match for Israel.

according to BBC .... According to you......

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

You have no understanding of war. You think its all glorious mano y mano fighting. Israel has every right to strike as far north as they need. There are things called supply lines that need to be disrupted. If the supplies are disrupted then there arent any missles for Hezbollah to continue firing. As for the ground invasion that is just stupid. You have to soften up a target before you move in. Thats just common sense. I guess we shouldnt have shelled and bombed normandy before we moved in because that wasnt macho enough for you.

Nice way to make assumptions. I've read more than enough about war thank you very much and I'm completely aware of the supply issue and the need to 'soften up targets'. I think the 'targets' are pretty 'soft' at this stage. As is practically the entire country of Lebanon.