Sondernkommando
Member
+22|6960
Israel is a democracy in a sea of murderous, hate-filled dictatorships and theocracies.  When your neighbours include:  Syria, Egypt, the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad, you learn that negotiation is useless. 

Israel was attacked from Lebanese territory it had returned in a gesture of goodwill, by a terror front freely allowed to run southern Lebanon, backed by Syria and Iran.  As we have seen time and time again over the years (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) appeasement NEVER works.  Why keep trying it?

Why reward aggression with concessions?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6800

Sondernkommando wrote:

Israel is a democracy in a sea of murderous, hate-filled dictatorships and theocracies.  When your neighbours include:  Syria, Egypt, the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad, you learn that negotiation is useless. 

Israel was attacked from Lebanese territory it had returned in a gesture of goodwill, by a terror front freely allowed to run southern Lebanon, backed by Syria and Iran.  As we have seen time and time again over the years (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) appeasement NEVER works.  Why keep trying it?

Why reward aggression with concessions?
Egypt? Didn't Israel negotiate peace with Egypt in the 70s in return for the occupied Sinai Peninsula? LOL

Returned Lebanese territory as a 'gesture of goodwill'! Here have the state of New Jersey back as a 'gesture of goodwill'. That's soeverign Lebanese territory you're talking about - how 'good willed' of Israel! LOL
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6876|949

Sondernkommando wrote:

Israel is a democracy in a sea of murderous, hate-filled dictatorships and theocracies.  When your neighbours include:  Syria, Egypt, the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad, you learn that negotiation is useless. 

Israel was attacked from Lebanese territory it had returned in a gesture of goodwill, by a terror front freely allowed to run southern Lebanon, backed by Syria and Iran.  As we have seen time and time again over the years (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) appeasement NEVER works.  Why keep trying it?

Why reward aggression with concessions?
I agree that Israel is the most politically stable country in the region, and that some countries bordering it are far from the moral norm.  Terrorist groups do not neighbor Israel, as they have no geographic location.

Israel returned land that it had taken-hardly a gesture of goodwill.  True, they didn't have to give it back, but I would hardly concede that it was a gesture of goodwill, more like part of a process of compromise.

As far as Lebanon is concerned, their government is not the most stable in the region.  Lebanon recently broke through a period where Syria heavily influenced their every move.  As has been stated before, Syria has been linked to politically supporting Hezbollah, with financial aid suspected as well.  Lebanon cannot control all of its country, like the Afghani government the U.S. installed cannot control much outside of Kabul.  This is not about rewards or appeasement.  It is about condoning the state-sponsored terrorism of Israel, not playing up to rhetoric.  It has been stated and acknowledged that Israel is killing innocent people with incredible effeciency.  Killing civilians, bombing civilian targets, attacking the society of Lebanon.  Is that just?
jonsimon
Member
+224|6739

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Sondernkommando wrote:

Israel is a democracy in a sea of murderous, hate-filled dictatorships and theocracies.  When your neighbours include:  Syria, Egypt, the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah Martyrs Brigade and Islamic Jihad, you learn that negotiation is useless. 

Israel was attacked from Lebanese territory it had returned in a gesture of goodwill, by a terror front freely allowed to run southern Lebanon, backed by Syria and Iran.  As we have seen time and time again over the years (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) appeasement NEVER works.  Why keep trying it?

Why reward aggression with concessions?
I agree that Israel is the most politically stable country in the region, and that some countries bordering it are far from the moral norm.  Terrorist groups do not neighbor Israel, as they have no geographic location.

Israel returned land that it had taken-hardly a gesture of goodwill.  True, they didn't have to give it back, but I would hardly concede that it was a gesture of goodwill, more like part of a process of compromise.

As far as Lebanon is concerned, their government is not the most stable in the region.  Lebanon recently broke through a period where Syria heavily influenced their every move.  As has been stated before, Syria has been linked to politically supporting Hezbollah, with financial aid suspected as well.  Lebanon cannot control all of its country, like the Afghani government the U.S. installed cannot control much outside of Kabul.  This is not about rewards or appeasement.  It is about condoning the state-sponsored terrorism of Israel, not playing up to rhetoric.  It has been stated and acknowledged that Israel is killing innocent people with incredible effeciency.  Killing civilians, bombing civilian targets, attacking the society of Lebanon.  Is that just?
No.

Last edited by jonsimon (2006-07-20 13:49:34)

negolien
Member
+3|6739
Ya democracy now is a fkin joke. As are the morons saying the US commits genocide and all that crap. It's the blame America crowd at its finiest. Whatever they can dig up to support their position instead of actually looking at the facts how typical of anarchist socialist  want to bes.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6876|949

negolien wrote:

Ya democracy now is a fkin joke. As are the morons saying the US commits genocide and all that crap. It's the blame America crowd at its finiest. Whatever they can dig up to support their position instead of actually looking at the facts how typical of anarchist socialist  want to bes.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Any logical arguments will be considered.
Thank you for bringing absolutely nothing to the table.  This is debate and serious talk, not Negolien's personal rant space.  You have a problem with certain types of people, go complain somewhere else.
negolien
Member
+3|6739
Only people who foist their terrorist supporting views on people without looking at factual data.
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6804
Ken Jennings and jonsimon,  Negolien brought up great points and used factual details. But all three of you are clueless because you guys didnt grow up Israeli or Lebonese. Spout all you want but this issue will never be resolved. As long as one side prays to God and the other to Allah there will never be peace. I pray to God so I am on Israel's side. Who do you pray to?

Last edited by rawls2 (2006-07-20 14:07:11)

jonsimon
Member
+224|6739

negolien wrote:

Only people who foist their terrorist supporting views on people without looking at factual data.
Oh no, I have complex views, I must be an unpatriotic freedom-hater terrorist. Get real little kid, go learn something about the world you live in and maybe you'll think for yourself.
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6953|Wilmington, DE, US
The Israelis and Americans are both murderers. It's a match made in Judeo-Christian heaven.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6739

rawls2 wrote:

Ken Jennings and jonsimon,  Negolien brought up great points and used factual details. But all three of you are clueless because you guys didnt grow up Israeli or Lebonese. Spout all you want but this issue will never be resolved. As long as one side prays to God and the other to Allah there will never be peace. I pray to God so I am on Israel's side. Who do you pray to?
I pray to no man, woman, or deity. Obviously I must be neutral in the matter. You're a fool to think this issue revolves around religion. Religion left the political stage for good after industrialization. It happens that religion makes a good cover up for evil intentions, but the truth still lies beneath.

Besides, I grew up HUMAN, and as one I gain the right to understand other humans.
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6804

Ikarti wrote:

The Israelis and Americans are both murderers. It's a match made in Judeo-Christian heaven.
I hope you and your family burn in hell!!!!
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6804

jonsimon wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

Ken Jennings and jonsimon,  Negolien brought up great points and used factual details. But all three of you are clueless because you guys didnt grow up Israeli or Lebonese. Spout all you want but this issue will never be resolved. As long as one side prays to God and the other to Allah there will never be peace. I pray to God so I am on Israel's side. Who do you pray to?
I pray to no man, woman, or deity. Obviously I must be neutral in the matter. You're a fool to think this issue revolves around religion. Religion left the political stage for good after industrialization. It happens that religion makes a good cover up for evil intentions, but the truth still lies beneath.

Besides, I grew up HUMAN, and as one I gain the right to understand other humans.
What lies beneath is the devil. Religion never went anywhere and it is still the main influence of this world. You are the fool to think that what is happening in the ME is political.

Last edited by rawls2 (2006-07-20 14:25:45)

|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6742|Me Dad's Wilkins

Ikarti wrote:

The Israelis and Americans are both murderers. It's a match made in Judeo-Christian heaven.
If you believe that you should move out of America!
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6876|949

rawls2 wrote:

Ken Jennings and jonsimon,  Negolien brought up great points and used factual details. But all three of you are clueless because you guys didnt grow up Israeli or Lebonese. Spout all you want but this issue will never be resolved. As long as one side prays to God and the other to Allah there will never be peace. I pray to God so I am on Israel's side. Who do you pray to?
Negolien brought up arguments that have no place in this argument, he took off a pro-Zionism website, and are debatable as far as truth.  It doesn't matter if I grew up Lebanese or Israeli.  I have been to both these places.  I have seen and heard normal everyday Arabs and Jews speak about this topic.  This is not about religion, as said before.  This is about wanton aggression and state-terrorism by Israel.  Tell me how in your God-fearing mind you can possibly rationalize Israeli attacks on civilian population, with over 240 dead?  How is that okay in your mind?

I pray to nobody.  I was raised as a Christian and decided to turn away.  I have fully developed metaphysical, universal, and moral views, and decided that theism is not the way for me.  Do you pray to God for nonlike-minded people to go to hell?  Like Jonsimon said, I must be neutral by your logic, right?

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-07-20 14:30:25)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6800

rawls2 wrote:

As long as one side prays to God and the other to Allah there will never be peace. I pray to God so I am on Israel's side. Who do you pray to?
Small point: 'Allah' = 'Yahweh' = 'God'

Jews, Christians and Muslims are all 'people of the book' as it were. There is no difference between the religions in who the supposed 'higher being' is.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7008|d
go Ikarti,LOL.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6806

negolien wrote:

“The United Nations unjustly partitioned Palestine.”
This is opinion, and therefore cannot be myth.

negolien wrote:

The British tried to work out an agreement acceptable to both Arabs and Jews, but their insistence on the former's approval guaranteed failure because the Arabs would not make any concessions. They subsequently turned the issue over to the UN in February 1947.
You say that like the Jews would.  There's a great quote towards the start of the latest time (don't have it with me ATM, can get exact quote later, if you want) saying that Jews and Arabs are bound to fight because neither will accept anything less than exactly what they want.  It's by a Jew, in the 1920s.

negolien wrote:

The contrasting attitudes of the two groups "could not fail to give the impression that the Jews were imbued with the sense of right and were prepared to plead their case before any unbiased tribunal, while the Arabs felt unsure of the justice of their cause, or were afraid to bow to the judgment of the nations."1
And you don't think they were in the middle of Holocaust guilt at the time?

negolien wrote:

When they returned, the delegates of seven nations — Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, The Netherlands, Peru, Sweden and Uruguay — recommended the establishment of two separate states, Jewish and Arab, to be joined by economic union, with Jerusalem an internationalized enclave. Three nations — India, Iran and Yugoslavia — recommended a unitary state with Arab and Jewish provinces. Australia abstained.
All of those nations were from outside of the Middle East.  Doesn't this remind you of Western Europe's attempts to reshape Easteern Europe at the end of WWI?


negolien wrote:

The Jews of Palestine were not satisfied with the small territory allotted to them by the Commission, nor were they happy that Jerusalem was severed from the Jewish State; nevertheless, they welcomed the compromise. The Arabs rejected the UNSCOP's recommendations.
Of course they would, the Jews gained land, the Arabs lost land.

negolien wrote:

The ad hoc committee of the UN General Assembly rejected the Arab demand for a unitary Arab state. The majority recommendation for partition was subsequently adopted 33-13 with 10 abstentions on November 29, 1947.3
Most of whom were Western Nations.

None of this proves the division was just, only that it was in accordance with UN procedures.


negolien wrote:

“The majority of the population in Palestine was Arab; therefore, a unitary Arab state should have been created.”
This is half opinion, therefore not myth.

negolien wrote:

At the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs did have a majority in western Palestine as a whole — 1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews.7 But the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution and in Jerusalem.
So you're telling me that the Palestinians in refugee camps just magically appeared?

negolien wrote:

The decision to partition Palestine was not determined solely by demographics; it was based on the conclusion that the territorial claims of Jews and Arabs were irreconcilable, and that the most logical compromise was the creation of two states. Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan.
Which is irrelevant to the original statement.  Besides which, Pakistan was smaller than India, and inherited the smaller population, IIRC.



negolien wrote:

“The Arabs were prepared to compromise to avoid bloodshed.”
Yes, that's incorrect, but were the Jews any better?
Stealth42o
She looked 18 to me officer
+175|6916

delta4bravo*nl* wrote:

Im sick of crazy muslims, nuke em all.
There jews not muslims for starters.  Yes Iserial doesn't take any shit from no one, bless them.  In this PC world we live in I like that there is at least one country left you know not to fuck with.

Lebenon harbors Hezbollah.  If they won't take care of the problem, Isreal will.  A goverments first responibility is to take care of it's citizens.  They are doing what they must.
Fld_Mrsl_Arts
The Pain Train's Comin'
+19|6739|Scotland

-=NHB=- Bananahands wrote:

Fld_Mrsl_Arts wrote:

here is the long and short of everything.

israel shouldnt be where it is today, it is only there due to interferance from the west.

israel displaced millions of palestinians into a muh smaller area

palestinians are angry and so are other muslim states who support them

palestinians react with agression (quite fairly, as their homes were taken)

israel reacts with a disproportionate force, that despite its far more advanced technology, still end up with civilian casualties.

lebanon cant control its rebels, it is a tough task

hezbolah is not lebanon

israel is threatening lebanon, NOT hezbolah

israel kills civilians, hezbolah kills civilians, but hezbolah uses inaccurate, old unguided rockets, israel uses accurate precision weapons, that carry far more munitions and so israel is in the wrong
Wow just wow. So by using old unnacurate rockets its ok to kill civilians? Thats the complete opposite you moron. Wow. Israel by using more accurate missles is in the right because that makes the chance of killing civilians far less than carpet bombing or launching rockets. Hezbollah by sending unaccurate rockets is in the wrong because they are basically throwing explosives up in hopes that it hits civilians.

As a country its Lebanons duty to control its own territory. If its unable then they should request more troops from the UN.
this was a while back guys, but i was away, but now im back.

ok, banana, wat ur saying makes no sence. i was saying that because the rockets that hezbolah is firing are inaccurate they are accidentally hitting civilians. israel has the weaponary to hit targets very accuratly, so why are they hitting civilians if they can plant a laser guided bomb within a few metres of a target, unless they MEAN to hit civilians purpously?

as for the second thingu said about the troops from the UN i do agree with that in part, although it wont just fix itself with more troops, it would b difficult to get the targets still, and could end in cival war
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6876|949

Stealth42o wrote:

Lebenon harbors Hezbollah.  If they won't take care of the problem, Isreal will.  A goverments first responibility is to take care of it's citizens.  They are doing what they must.
Lebanon cannot control Hezbollah.  They do not have the power nor the resources.  Not to mention that the indiscriminate killing of Lebanese civilians is probably fostering more hate for Israel, and seeding future terrorism.  Israel can and will attack Hezbollah any chance they get.  I welcome that.  The less terrorist organizations the better.  What I do not agree with is the attacking of civilians.  They aren't attacking Hezbollah, they are killing innocent people trying to live their life.  If they (Israel) must kill Arabs to feel safe, then yes, they are doing what they must.
Stealth42o
She looked 18 to me officer
+175|6916

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Stealth42o wrote:

Lebanon harbors Hezbollah.  If they won't take care of the problem, Israel will.  A governments first responsibility is to take care of it's citizens.  They are doing what they must.
Lebanon cannot control Hezbollah.  They do not have the power nor the resources.  Not to mention that the indiscriminate killing of Lebanese civilians is probably fostering more hate for Israel, and seeding future terrorism.  Israel can and will attack Hezbollah any chance they get.  I welcome that.  The less terrorist organizations the better.  What I do not agree with is the attacking of civilians.  They aren't attacking Hezbollah, they are killing innocent people trying to live their life.  If they (Israel) must kill Arabs to feel safe, then yes, they are doing what they must.
I am sure Israel is not sitting back going "Hey how many kids we kill today".  Cold as it may be, they are casualties of war.  If Lebanon REALLY wanted them out of there country, they would asked for help, period.

They must be getting something out of them being there.  I am sure no cash is changing hands.

But really, what the fuck do I know, Nothing.  I have never seen a war, never been shot at (Well a few farmers when I was stealing there weed), I do not live there or am effected by it (Except gas prices).  Funny how ANYTHING will "Scare" up domestic gas prices.

"Breaking news story, a penguin in South America farted today scaring domestic oil prices to over four dollars a barrel"

I wouldn't be surprised to hear it.

Last edited by Stealth42o (2006-07-20 16:04:17)

PRiMACORD
Member
+190|6869|Home of the Escalade Herds

rawls2 wrote:

As long as one side prays to God and the other to Allah there will never be peace. I pray to God so I am on Israel's side. Who do you pray to?
Someone should  attach this to the dictionary definition of stupid.

I hope for your sake you're 10 years old, that has to be the most dumb comment i've ever read on these forums.

God = Allah

Same thing, different name.


For all you people happy Israel is doing what they're doing, you're just as dumb as rawls2. They are solidifying terrorism for the next 100 years. The bombs they drop are breeding more terrorism, by killing innocents you give them a reason to hate.

Israel is being attacked by Hezbollah, i get that and it's just plain wrong. Carpet bombing is just securing more terrorism, they don't need to be more precise, they have to be unless they want future terrorist attacks on Israel continue.

Simple logic, by killing hundreds of civilians now they are creating hundreds of terrorists for the future.

To all you people liking Israel because they are 'a country you don't fuck with', i'm embarrassed to belong to the same species. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if you lived in Israel, knowing any day could be the last for you or a loved one. These bombings only take that fact and extend it far into the future.

Morons...
Fld_Mrsl_Arts
The Pain Train's Comin'
+19|6739|Scotland

rawls2 wrote:

Ken Jennings and jonsimon,  Negolien brought up great points and used factual details. But all three of you are clueless because you guys didnt grow up Israeli or Lebonese. Spout all you want but this issue will never be resolved. As long as one side prays to God and the other to Allah there will never be peace. I pray to God so I am on Israel's side. Who do you pray to?
oh my god, is this guy for real. that is THE stupidest thing that i hav ever heard, by far, no jk.

ok ill break this to u softly, Allah means God in Arabic as cameron said Allah = God

our religions are very similar, and so is judaism. if anything muslims are more acceptant of our religion than we are of theirs. we deny that the prophet mohamid was an enlightened spirit, and that Jesus is the only mirical worker. However, in muslim they accept jesus as a prophet and say that he was a holy man cabable of miracles, they even include some of teachings in the Qur'an. so they are more acceptant than us.

our religions are very similar, and i hate to break this to you, but all of our religioons (christianity, judaism and Islam) are derived from each other. they are effectively just one religion that got split up and then grew apart.

here are similarities that show this, between islam, judaism and christianity.

we all worship a single higher being who commands us and helps us. all religions hav prophets and teachers, Jesus and Mohamid. all of the religions encourage praying and say that it is a link to god. all of the religions hav holy books, that tell tales of their god and prophets. all of them say that there will be a judgement day, when god judges us. all of the religions believe in heaven and hell where our souls go after death. many practices and moral codes are identical, i could quote a whole list of similar bible/Qur'an qoutes that show the almost identical religions
|AIA| DAS
Member
+23|6742|Me Dad's Wilkins

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Stealth42o wrote:

Lebenon harbors Hezbollah.  If they won't take care of the problem, Isreal will.  A goverments first responibility is to take care of it's citizens.  They are doing what they must.
Lebanon cannot control Hezbollah.  They do not have the power nor the resources.  Not to mention that the indiscriminate killing of Lebanese civilians is probably fostering more hate for Israel, and seeding future terrorism.  Israel can and will attack Hezbollah any chance they get.  I welcome that.  The less terrorist organizations the better.  What I do not agree with is the attacking of civilians.  They aren't attacking Hezbollah, they are killing innocent people trying to live their life.  If they (Israel) must kill Arabs to feel safe, then yes, they are doing what they must.
Lebanon cannot control hizbollah? Um, here is an idea, ASK FOR HELP UN, US, UK, EU, PRC, Israel ask someone, they do have representation in the UN, and many embassies thoughout Lebanon, don't throw your hands up and say not my problem.

What about the innocent civilians being killed in Israel, do you disagree if hizbollah had more accurate weaponry the total civilian deaths in Israel would be larger?  I'd be willing to wager if they had more accurate weaponry hizbollah would deliberately target civilians.  If it's not happening now.  I feel that any civilian life lost is precious, but I can assure you Israel is taking more steps to safeguard against killing civilians, than hizbollah.

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