BF2S Forums Israeli Heavy-Handedness

Jainus wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Of course it was in their 'trust'. It was British-mandate Palestine. I don't see the relevance. I know that strictly speaking it was under their jurisdiction I just don't think they had the moral right to start giving away said land.

You don't see the relevance in the land being promised to them (Israeli's) by the country (the Brits) entrusted with that region? So when you talk of the Israeli's stealing the land i presume that your talking of the land they've taken since then? As we can see, the government with the mandate promised that land... so how exactly did the Israeli's steal it? If your looking to kick out against injustice thats another situation you might like to add to your list.

Whether it was right or wrong for the British to give away the land. The fact is they did and whatever provisos they placed on it are pretty much irrelevant.

However, the Israelis didn't stick to that piece of land and have been nicking bits off the Palestinians for decades. Thats quite naughty really and they do deserve some sort of reprecussions from it, not necessarily getting suicide bombed, but something.

Heres a pic of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, an area the Israelis aren't supposed to be in AT ALL - the green areas are Israeli controlled the rest Palestinian.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … on_map.PNG

negolien wrote:

Screw the terrorists rock on Jews :<).

  PS
ya Gun I think all normal people feel bad for civilian casualties. As a nation one can only do it's best to minimize such tragedies. When these guys hide and stuff amongst em it's tough but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

What ya gonna do? Well the Israelis could start by giving back the land they've stolen over the last 60 years (not the land they were 'given' but all the land they have appropriated since then) and paying reparations to the Palestinian people. That would destroy the environment in Palestine that breeds suicide bombers.

Bombing the Palestinans and the Lebanese may seem like a good response, but all that will happen is that civillians will die - and in the long run there will be even more suicide bombers.

Since Israel won't be allowed to ethnicly cleanse all Arabs from the middle east till there are none left to bomb them (at least I hope not), the only way to end the terrorism is for Israel to make concessions (I know this won't ever happen, at least not anytime soon). Once the Israelis realise its up to them to act like the grown ups in this mess and compromise then progress towards a real lasting peace could be made.

PRiMACORD wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Bombing the Palestinans and the Lebanese may seem like a good response, but all that will happen is that civillians will die - and in the long run there will be even more suicide bombers.

Exactly.

The guy who lost is wife and 4 kids...you think he's more likely to become a priest or a suicide bomber? What about all the other families that are getting torn apart?? For every legit hezbollah terrorist they kill they'll probably create 10 more.

Violence Breeds Violence

but still! if we choise an fair way to answer, and start to kiddnape arabs and throw rocks on them, we still gonna hit the civilians... so what u propouse then? not answering at all?

CameronPoe wrote:

Lisik wrote:

PRiMACORD wrote:

Exactly.

The guy who lost is wife and 4 kids...you think he's more likely to become a priest or a suicide bomber? What about all the other families that are getting torn apart?? For every legit hezbollah terrorist they kill they'll probably create 10 more.

Violence Breeds Violence

but still! if we choise an fair way to answer, and start to kiddnape arabs and throw rocks on them, we still gonna hit the civilians... so what u propouse then? not answering at all?

I don't think he's proposing not responding at all. I think he's proposing a more measured, sensible response (that doesn't rule out a measured, sensible military response either).

Thats exactly what I'm proposing, along with making reparations to the Palestinian people. That should virtually eliminate terrorism there within a generation at most.

Although it won't happen.

Palestininas got 55 fucking years to choice theyr way of acting! they choise terror? they will get terror!

Lisik wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Lisik wrote:

but still! if we choise an fair way to answer, and start to kiddnape arabs and throw rocks on them, we still gonna hit the civilians... so what u propouse then? not answering at all?

I don't think he's proposing not responding at all. I think he's proposing a more measured, sensible response (that doesn't rule out a measured, sensible military response either).

we did it 55 years till today! the only reason we didnt spashed all the arabs around us is World Opinion in this question! today we got anought of world opinions, we see that world opinion dosent help to keep a peace.. so we will act in ours way!

Ha Ha Ha, sensible military response for 55 years! Its exactly those sort of views that mean that any type of military response will only make matters worse for civillians on both sides.

Lisik wrote:

they choise terror? they will get terror!

After dealing with Israeli soldiers for 55 years I'm sure they know all about terror.

Lisik wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Lisik wrote:

but still! if we choise an fair way to answer, and start to kiddnape arabs and throw rocks on them, we still gonna hit the civilians... so what u propouse then? not answering at all?

I don't think he's proposing not responding at all. I think he's proposing a more measured, sensible response (that doesn't rule out a measured, sensible military response either).

we did it 55 years till today! the only reason we didnt spashed all the arabs around us is World Opinion in this question! today we got anought of world opinions, we see that world opinion dosent help to keep a peace.. so we will act in ours way!

Measured and sensible: building settlements all over the west bank, criss-crossing the west bank with a network of roads only israelis are allowed to use, placing checkpoints all over the west bank making Palestinians daily commute exactly that (i.e. the commute lasts a day!), denying palestinians air, land and sea trade routes that might make their economy viable, bulldozing the homes of people who didn't perpetrate terror themselves, various other forms of collective punishment, internment without trial, the list can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-17 03:22:14)

Lisik wrote:

After dealing with Israeli soldiers for 55 years I'm sure they know all about terror.

u calling ppl who comed here after WWII - Soldiers? HA HA! get a brain! thouse ppl was in 35 kg weight what the fucking soldiers are u talking about?

the list can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....

u can use this list in toiled coz israel didnt started it!

The day they declared an independent state of Israel they had to expect that they were entering a world of shit from here to eternity. I don't know who said it but the phrase goes that Israel was a nation 'born into perpetual war'.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-17 03:46:06)

Bubbalo wrote:

Lisik wrote:

u calling ppl who comed here after WWII - Soldiers? HA HA! get a brain! thouse ppl was in 35 kg weight what the fucking soldiers are u talking about?

They were soldier enough to kill innocent civilians.

Coz they was attaced by innocent civilians!

I always feel wierd when we talk Israel, because I agree with Horseman for the most part.  It makes me feel dirty.

Lisik wrote:

Coz they was attaced by innocent civilians!

I thought we were talking about when they first arrived post-WWII, no?

And if someone attacks them, they cease to be innocent civilians.

Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-07-17 04:04:02)

There was peace in Iraq until the US moved in.
France was much more peaceful pre-D-Day.
Australia was more peaceful before the Aborigines put up a fight.
And those goddamn Indians just had to start shit with the US army.

Still, you have a point.

Jainus wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

I have taken some heat here regarding my stance on the situation in the Middle East, so let me elaborate a little:

I do NOT and have never condoned suicide/homicide bombings by the Palestinians.  I believe that killing innocent civilians is and always will be WRONG.

I do NOT and have never condoned the actions of Hezbollah, aside from those that are in a direct response to agression.  Please be aware that Hezbollah was created as a response to Israel invading (ILLEGALLY) Lebanon.  It would not exist today were it not for that...

I do NOT and have never condoned State sponsored terrorism.  That goes for Syria, Iraq, Iran, Israel, etc...

I do NOT and have never condoned the stealing of land and the murdering of people for such gain (Zionism) as Israel has done for decades.

And yet everything I've read from you on this thread (and Poe, your still guilty of this too) has been Israeli bashing. Not once have you looked at what hezbollah has done and condemned them to anything like the same degree. Thats a "Fair and Balanced" view isn't it guys...?

I have never once condoned the actions of Hezbollah, not here or anywhere else.  I think what Hezbollah did amounts to a "cheap shot" and should never have taken place.  The fact remains that Israel is now using it's military to murder innocent civilian (once again) on a mass scale.  Israel may have stood a chance of getting their soldiers back through negotiations, had their history shown that they would honor such an agreement.  As we all know, there are still Palestinians in captivity that Israel promised to release in a prisoner swap and never did...

Jainus wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

Here is the over-simplified version of the facts:

Israel has become the state it is today because of their expansionist policies.  Since the late 1940's, Israel has systematically murdered people of that region to steal their land.  Their claims to the land were denied by the UN.  The British did NOT give them that land, it wasn't theirs to give.  Britain actually renigged on their offer in the '40's, Israel took the land anyway.

So its not just the Arab world that has been fucking the Israeli's over then? Western countries have form for it too. The land was promised to them (rightly or wrongly; it was still promised to them) and then we said "sorry, we had our fingers crossed behind our back". Well I'm sure we all feel better knowing that actually Israel can count on no-one... oh thats right, except themselves.

A home was promised to the Jews.  NEVER was a state promised to them...Israel was created by the Jews ILLEGALLY murdering the people and stealing their land, get that through your head.

Jainus wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

Suicide bombing are a DIRECT RESPONSE to the actions of State run terrorism by Israel.  The constant military actions against the Palestinians gave rise to this new breed of reaction, which Israel calls terrorism (and most of the world).  I ask this "which is worse, using your military to murder 100's of civilians to take their land (Israel) or, killing 10-20 people (and yourself) with a bomb strapped to your body to get back at them?"

So for standing in a internationally recognized country's army and being held accountable at least to that government and its people is now comparable to the people who hide their identity and sulk in shadows until their ready to commit mass murder? Representing a country that can be held to account by the international community is the same as a what is effectively a criminal group? I'm sorry to lower the tone but fuck off you prat.
Israeli soldier: Kill a child and you'll be arrested and jailed if a court finds you guilty
Terrorist group: Do wtf you like and get away with it, or even better be called a martyr for murdering people.
One can be held accountable (even if it is to a flawed system), the other can't be.

1st of all, Israel has used it's military for decades to systematically kill Palestinians, invade Lebanon, and steal land to further their expansionist goals, the Palestinians have no military, and Lebanon, well theirs amounts to nothing more than a group of men armed like our police.  It's no wonder the Palestinians resort to suicide bombings, it's all they have left to fight back with...BTW, I have never condoned suicide bombings, I abhor them.

Jainus wrote:

HM1{N} wrote:

All of the countries in the Middle East hate Israel, why???

Because Israel stole land, murdered the people, and claims it for their own with the backing of the U.S.

If you read the history and look at the facts, you will see that Israel is at fault for what is wrong out there...and my country, the U.S., is equally at fault for perpetuating the vicious cycle.  Until my country steps in and says ENOUGH, this will go on forever, or at least until Irand launches a nuke on Israel (God save us all).

One last note:  feeling the way I do, I do NOT condone the destruction of Israel and the killing of it's populace.  I DO however condone the removal of Israel provided there is a safe place they can live in peace.

Both sides are murdering people. Wake up and pay attention!! Your vaunted Hezbollah are killing people as well, stop devouting all your time to bashing Israel and spare some breath for your condemnation of the terrorist groups.

They are not MY vaunted Hezbollah, they are Israels thorn in the side, created because Israel invaded Lebanon illegally.

Jainus wrote:

There are two things that i think should be added here. Firstly, if Israel knew where to strike, then they would have passed that info along to the Lebanese government. Israel has given the Lebanese time to act, they haven't and the rocket attacks and border raids have continued. So we're back to what would you have them do instead? Send a invitation to the terrorists while they grab their ankles? Waiting for the Lebanese to do something has failed... your next plan?

Secondly, a thought on why the US and other Western powers haven't taken action. Israel is attacking a terrorist group. You could say that they are seeking out terrorism and trying to destroy it... how is that different from the US position on terrorism? Especially considering that not only has the US, and mainly the UK, declared open war on Osama; but they have also toppled two governments in recent years for harbouring terrorists? Its not just the the Jews in America are holding sway over policy (although that line of thinking may have some credence), what Israel is doing is in keeping with the stated US policy.

Israel gave what, a whole 8 hours before they starting bombing Lebanon?  Yeah that's enough time for diplomacy to work?

As I said earlier, the U.S. policy towards Israel is ass backwards.  We blindly allow them to do whatever they want, even when the rest of the world disagrees with Israeli actions.  We are their only friend.  Quit being consumed by your anger and try to look at the facts objectively.  Israel is facing these problems because of their policies and actions, and for no other reason.

Bubbalo wrote:

Lisik wrote:

Coz they was attaced by innocent civilians!

I thought we were talking about when they first arrived post-WWII, no?

And if someone attacks them, they cease to be innocent civilians.

YEP! When they first arrived, they was attacked by - Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq - so as u sayd.. they cease to be innocent civilians!