BF2S Forums Israeli Heavy-Handedness

$teiner wrote:

Thats an amusing notion, i mean, what exactly do you propose? The United States, and the Western World abandon Israel to fend for itself? Perhaps you hadn't noticed but her neighbours aren't the friendliest bunch, they refute Israels very existance, and as such would be more than happy to "kill all the Zionists" in the land which they believe to be their own. Israel is not the problem, it's the Iranian and Syrian governments bankrolling Hamas and Hezbollah which are the protagonists in this.

"DEBKAfile reported that Iranian national security advisor and senior nuclear negotiator Ali Larijani flew to Damascus. According to the report, he will remain there for the duration of the crisis in line with an Iranian-Syrian mutual defense pact, and would deem any attack on Syria an assault on Iran. DEBKAfile also reported that Hezbollah "acted on orders from Tehran to open a second front against Israel, partly to ease IDF military pressure on the Hamas in the Gaza Strip". According to DEBKAfile, Iran is also taking up this action to divert attention at the upcoming G8 summit away from the Iranian Nuclear Crisis, and onto this flare-up instead. Finally, they report that both Syrian and Iranian armed forces have been brought to a state of high alert."

It's commendable that the Arab League has taken a neutral stance in this crisis, the Egyptians have taken the role of mediators for the release of the captured Israeli soldier, and the Jordanians are silent - which is a good thing, i suppose. The Arab States know very well that it is useless fighting Israel in any kind of conventional way, so i doubt we'll see a repeat of Yom Kippur - as much as some people would like to see it happen.

QFT!!

Good Post. Thank You!!

Last edited by DaReJa (2006-07-13 02:31:02)

delta4bravo*nl* wrote:

Im sick of crazy muslims, nuke em all.

My post isn't a pro-islam post - it's an anti-israel post.

$teiner wrote:

"DEBKAfile reported that Iranian national security advisor and senior nuclear negotiator Ali Larijani flew to Damascus. According to the report, he will remain there for the duration of the crisis in line with an Iranian-Syrian mutual defense pact, and would deem any attack on Syria an assault on Iran. DEBKAfile also reported that Hezbollah "acted on orders from Tehran to open a second front against Israel, partly to ease IDF military pressure on the Hamas in the Gaza Strip". According to DEBKAfile, Iran is also taking up this action to divert attention at the upcoming G8 summit away from the Iranian Nuclear Crisis, and onto this flare-up instead. Finally, they report that both Syrian and Iranian armed forces have been brought to a state of high alert."

You have kind of proven my point with this paragraph - collective punishment for the Lebanese based on acts carried out and funded by Iranians/Syrians? I'm afraid it's acts like these that have drained my holocaust-sympathy well dry. The tyrannised have become the tyrants.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-13 03:37:21)

$teiner wrote:

Thats an amusing notion, i mean, what exactly do you propose? The United States, and the Western World abandon Israel to fend for itself? Perhaps you hadn't noticed but her neighbours aren't the friendliest bunch, they refute Israels very existance, and as such would be more than happy to "kill all the Zionists" in the land which they believe to be their own. Israel is not the problem, it's the Iranian and Syrian governments bankrolling Hamas and Hezbollah which are the protagonists in this.

If the Israelis cannot abide by international law then I say fuck them. Why are other countries bankrolling them anyway? US aid to Israel amounts to the lion's share of all aid supplied to all countries all over the world - and Israel is a 'first world' country. Wake up America. Europe: stop pandering, your guilt has been absolved.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-13 03:42:10)

CameronPoe wrote:

Situation:

In Lebanon there has been heavy fighting with Hexbollah in which Israel have suffered their worst losses on the border with Lebanon for several years. Eight Israeli troops died and two were injured in the clashes, during which Hezbollah fighters captured the two soldiers. Hezbollah guerrillas also fired volleys of rockets at the northern Israeli coastal town of Nahariya, killing one Israeli woman.

Israeli Response: [Please bear in mind that Hezbollah do not represent the people of Lebanon or the government of Lebanon]

1) Wide-ranging Israeli air raids on southern Lebanon leave 27 dead, including 10 children.
2) Israeli ships have entered Lebanese water to block ports.
3) Lebanon's only international airport is closed after Israeli air strikes on the runways.
4) Bridges and roads have also been targeted, circa 40 targets in total.

Israel have a history of responding like this. For me this is disgraceful. If a group of my fellow countrymen decided they were going to go and shoot a few Israeli soldiers I would be more than a little irate if Dublin airport and the M50 were destroyed and scores of Irish civilians lay injured. Where do the Israelis get off doing shit like this? Sanction Israel NOW. US citizens - wake up smell the coffee - $80bn of military and financial aid every year: why? What is the benefit to the US taxpayer?

I am sick and tired of the No. 1 problem in the middle east: state terrorists, Israel.

LOL you act as if the Syrian Government is doing anything and everything to stop Hezbolah and stop open support from Iran for terror strikes . Please . Isreal has been under constant attack and in the iron sights of weapons every day since the 50's . One thing about Arabs is they never accaept loss . One thing about Isrealis is they stick together to the end . Just deal with it and STFU . You don't live there .

Hezbollah, hamas, plo....whatever, they each containg high ranking members of various government agencies, for the governments to turn a blind eye to theri operation is the same as giving them a green flag, what if the FBI decided to quit shutting down militia groups or white/black supremist groups, what if Washington decided to ignore the border extremist (not the minutemen) who want to run out and shoot every illegal they see in the desert? Would you sit back and say "Pfft, they're NGO's, nothing we can do about them"? Many of these governments, especially Syria, have Arab supremist views right up to the top of command, and feel they have nothing but gain in the destruction of Israel, the one nation over there that actually invests in schools and industry, why build your own when you can take theirs? How about sanctioning the governmetns that allow the broadcast of terrorist fundraisers on TV? How about the sanctioning the governments that ignore trucks full of AK's crossing the borders? How abourt sanctioning the governments that teach that an Arab life is worth 2 times that of anyone else's as soon as the kids can read, as well as allowing government facilities to be used to teach how to make homemeade rockets to launch indiscriminately at Israeli colleges? If these governments ever want any kind of credibility, they're going to have to start policing their own, maybe they need to start by ousting the cabinet officials who spend their free time running camps teaching how to make car bombs.

jonnykill wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Situation:

In Lebanon there has been heavy fighting with Hexbollah in which Israel have suffered their worst losses on the border with Lebanon for several years. Eight Israeli troops died and two were injured in the clashes, during which Hezbollah fighters captured the two soldiers. Hezbollah guerrillas also fired volleys of rockets at the northern Israeli coastal town of Nahariya, killing one Israeli woman.

Israeli Response: [Please bear in mind that Hezbollah do not represent the people of Lebanon or the government of Lebanon]

1) Wide-ranging Israeli air raids on southern Lebanon leave 27 dead, including 10 children.
2) Israeli ships have entered Lebanese water to block ports.
3) Lebanon's only international airport is closed after Israeli air strikes on the runways.
4) Bridges and roads have also been targeted, circa 40 targets in total.

Israel have a history of responding like this. For me this is disgraceful. If a group of my fellow countrymen decided they were going to go and shoot a few Israeli soldiers I would be more than a little irate if Dublin airport and the M50 were destroyed and scores of Irish civilians lay injured. Where do the Israelis get off doing shit like this? Sanction Israel NOW. US citizens - wake up smell the coffee - $80bn of military and financial aid every year: why? What is the benefit to the US taxpayer?

I am sick and tired of the No. 1 problem in the middle east: state terrorists, Israel.

LOL you act as if the Syrian Government is doing anything and everything to stop Hezbolah and stop open support from Iran for terror strikes . Please . Isreal has been under constant attack and in the iron sights of weapons every day since the 50's . One thing about Arabs is they never accaept loss . One thing about Isrealis is they stick together to the end . Just deal with it and STFU . You don't live there .

You really need to get your facts straight.  In the '50's Ariel Sharon massacred people without provocation.  Qibya comes to mind:

As commander of the notorious Unit 101, Sharon led attacks on Palestinian villages in which women and children were killed.

The massacre in the West Bank village of Qibya, on October 14, 1953, was perhaps the most notorious. His troops blew up 45 houses and 69 Palestinian civilians -- about half of them women and children -- were killed.

There was also Dar Yassin where Ariel Sharon and his troops murdered over 350 people, mostly women and children.

Since the 1950's Israel has been the single largest aggressor, stealing, murdering and displacing people to gain land.  Ariel Sharon was at the forefront of this movement and today is known as a criminal for Crimes Against Humanity.

I have no more sympathy for Israel, the holocaust was bad and wrong, but Israel has elevated itself to the same position as Nazi Germany IMO.  When I say Israel is the country with most sanctions/resolutions against it by UN, I am not exaggerating:

UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
1. Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN  resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians" 39. Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops" 55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
 
The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the period of September, 1972, to May, 1990 to protect Israel from council criticism:
1. ....condemned Israel's attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria..."
2. ....affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections..."
3. ...condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians..."
4. ....called for self-determination of Palestinian people..."
5. ....deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations..."
6. ....affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people..."
7. ....endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people..."
8. ....demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights..."
9. ....condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations..."
10. ....condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem..."
11. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon..."
12. ....urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut..."
14. ....urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon..."
15. ....condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace..."
16. ....deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal..."
17. ....condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression...."
18. ....denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories..."
19. ....deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon..."
20. ....deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites..."
21. ....condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane..."
22. ....deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon..."
23. ....called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations..."
24. ....urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices..."
25. ....condemned Israel's... incursion into Lebanon..."
26. ....deplored Israel's... commando raids on Lebanon..."
27. ....deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians..."
28. ....deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians..."
29. ....demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada..."
30. ...called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands..."-

Last edited by HM1{N} (2006-07-13 05:22:37)

kr@cker wrote:

Is ther enough server space to list the violations of palestine and other nations against israel? Oh, that's right, the UN doesn't care, the jews are just supposed to sit there and watch their families get slaughtered.

You really need to get a clue...

If Israel had not stolen the land and murdered the people who were there for the last 60 years, there wouldn't be any fighting.  The only people who have been getting slaughtered are the people in the countries around Israel.

Israel is the SINGLE LARGEST AGRESSOR in the middle east.  They are at the root of everything that is wrong with that area.

You need to read the resolutions, most of them deal with Israel murdering the people who were there and then stealing their land...

jonnykill wrote:

LOL you act as if the Syrian Government is doing anything and everything to stop Hezbolah and stop open support from Iran for terror strikes . Please . Isreal has been under constant attack and in the iron sights of weapons every day since the 50's . One thing about Arabs is they never accaept loss . One thing about Isrealis is they stick together to the end . Just deal with it and STFU . You don't live there .

Hmmmmm. I think you're confusing Syria with Lebanon. There happens to be an internationally recognised border between the two countries. Why do the general Lebanese populace pay the price for the acts of a few rogue syrian/palestinian/iranian elements operating outside the law within their country?

It's your kind of attitude that sickens me. Tit for tat mindless murder and destruction only deepens problems - it will NEVER solve them. There are other ways of dealing with guerrilla warfare. If I was a Palestinian I wouldn't accept my loss either - injustice should never be tolerated - fight injustice to the bitter end I say.

I don't live there so I should STFU? Well maybe if the rest of the world stopped bankrupting your international law-violating little nation you might not be shouting STFU so readily. Israel needs the assistance of other nations. As soon as that support is cut - Israel will die.

Israelis stick together in the end? Oh yeah - the secularists and religious factions in Israel get on like a house on fire don't they? LOL.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-13 05:45:22)

Jainus wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

Is ther enough server space to list the violations of palestine and other nations against israel? Oh, that's right, the UN doesn't care, the jews are just supposed to sit there and watch their families get slaughtered.

Of course, you not suggesting that they actually... <gulp> do something are you!? The Arab's hate the Israeli's and vice versa; always have and always will.

To answer the original thread, yes i agree that it is heavy handed but how about suggesting some alternatives. To just sit there and die is not the brightest idea so what do you suggest they do? Don't tell me, move the country!! Now why haven't they thought of that... mmmm lets all have a think...

How about staying their hand for once and operating with dignity and respect. Then combat the guerrilla elements with counter-guerrilla warfare - not conventional warfare. Addressing the root causes of the problems that give rise to guerrilla warfare might also help - but we all know the Israelis are incapable of such rational and reasonable action.

kr@cker wrote:

Hezbollah, hamas, plo....whatever, they each containg high ranking members of various government agencies, for the governments to turn a blind eye to theri operation is the same as giving them a green flag, what if the FBI decided to quit shutting down militia groups or white/black supremist groups, what if Washington decided to ignore the border extremist (not the minutemen) who want to run out and shoot every illegal they see in the desert? Would you sit back and say "Pfft, they're NGO's, nothing we can do about them"? Many of these governments, especially Syria, have Arab supremist views right up to the top of command, and feel they have nothing but gain in the destruction of Israel, the one nation over there that actually invests in schools and industry, why build your own when you can take theirs? How about sanctioning the governmetns that allow the broadcast of terrorist fundraisers on TV? How about the sanctioning the governments that ignore trucks full of AK's crossing the borders? How abourt sanctioning the governments that teach that an Arab life is worth 2 times that of anyone else's as soon as the kids can read, as well as allowing government facilities to be used to teach how to make homemeade rockets to launch indiscriminately at Israeli colleges? If these governments ever want any kind of credibility, they're going to have to start policing their own, maybe they need to start by ousting the cabinet officials who spend their free time running camps teaching how to make car bombs.

Kr@cker - you don't get the jist of my argument. Israel don't have to sit there and take it like a bitch but they don't need to and shouldn't combat guerrilla warfare with conventional warfare in a third party country (thus producing civilian casualties and disgruntlement and bolstering support for the guerrillas).

Jainus wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It's your kind of attitude that sickens me. Tit for tat mindless murder and destruction only deepens problems - it will NEVER solve them. There are other ways of dealing with guerrilla warfare. If I was a Palestinian I wouldn't accept my loss either - injustice should never be tolerated - fight injustice to the bitter end I say.

Its not just the Isaeli's that go for an eye for an eye, they're all at it. And if injustice should never be tolerated then how does that square to your feelings about injustice against Israeli? Let me guess, there have never been injustices against Israel only acts by matyrs against the Evil Empire...

No that's not true - anti-civilian acts are unjust. But I say deal with the original injustice first (the casting out of their homes of millions of Palestinians, without compensation).