You get cornerd with logic and change the topic of your agument every time. Gets tiresome fast.
To clarify:
1) I asked to whom you were referring in one of you posts, and in response you insult me. When I then inform I can't find anything on these incidents, and would appreciate any links to news articles you have, you go mysteriously silent
2) On a completely differeny topic, I question the logic of a "there's no such thing as murder in war" statement. Your contribution to the discussion is to call me an asshole, without actually saying anything else, and then say I've changed my argument because I've been cornered with logic. And, where exactly did I get cornered with logic?
1) I asked to whom you were referring in one of you posts, and in response you insult me. When I then inform I can't find anything on these incidents, and would appreciate any links to news articles you have, you go mysteriously silent
2) On a completely differeny topic, I question the logic of a "there's no such thing as murder in war" statement. Your contribution to the discussion is to call me an asshole, without actually saying anything else, and then say I've changed my argument because I've been cornered with logic. And, where exactly did I get cornered with logic?
These prisoners are not US citizens, therefore they do not DESERVE the same rights as us. These prisoners are not even soldiers of an army. They are terrorists who do not follow the same rules of the Geneva convention to begin with. Fuck your rules. This prison probably has the best damn treatment in that whole country. It's a godamn joke.Havazn wrote:
So the Bush administration is taking away both your and the inmates rights, the supreme court is fighting to get the inmates rights back and you have no animosity towards the administration itself? Its your government, if you don't like what its doing, DO something. If enough people supported your side, the Supreme court cannot ignore it.HM1{N} wrote:
You mean like our phones that are being tapped without them saying anything?Havazn wrote:
The Supreme court is the body that upholds your civil rights and laws. Im sure you wouldn't be hating them so much when YOUR rights become infringed.
Or our bank records being scoured without them doing anything?
Or Internet spying without them fighting for us?
BAH! They choose WHAT to hear WHEN they want to hear it, there is no impartiality in the Supreme Court. If they don't want to hear a case they refuse it and nothing can be done about it...doesn't sound like I should be loving them that much.
These inmates aren't given the luxary of a fair and proper trial that YOU would get. They do not have the power to have their voices heard because they are locked in a box in another country. Hence the supreme courts intervention.
So, only Americans get basic human rights now?
Edit: Yay! I now get a daily dose of negative karma! Go me!
Edit: Yay! I now get a daily dose of negative karma! Go me!
Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-07-02 23:48:59)
As Americans, we usually try to strive for excellence. That includes treating enemies with utmost care and respect. It's what gave us a good name, before Vietnam.
To be honest, most Americans don't deserve the rights they have.
(NOW SOMEONE WILL COME IN AND SAY ESPECIALLY YOU IKARTI HAR HAR HAR SO CLEVER)
Five dollars I bet that happens. Or I get neg karma.
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!
(NOW SOMEONE WILL COME IN AND SAY ESPECIALLY YOU IKARTI HAR HAR HAR SO CLEVER)
Five dollars I bet that happens. Or I get neg karma.
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!
Bwah? The rest of the world doesn't?Spearhead wrote:
As Americans, we usually try to strive for excellence.
Like paying scientists who were hard-core Nazis?Spearhead wrote:
That includes treating enemies with utmost care and respect. It's what gave us a good name, before Vietnam.
LOL, this is typical bubbalo, he can't dream up a real response so he has to try and twist and disect your sentence into something evil instead of taking what you said at face value, knowing damn well what you meant.Bubbalo wrote:
So, only Americans get basic human rights now?
Edit: Yay! I now get a daily dose of negative karma! Go me!
Since he has no argument to cover yours, at face value he takes it an an obviously absurd level.
Aah.. Must be 100th thread ruined by Horseman & Bubbalo. Could you play in private please?
Darth, as usually, blindly believes that because mr B says those held in gitmo are criminals, they for sure are. I agree with things you wrote and pasted about Geneva, but those really don't matter if prisoners (or whatever you call them) can be picked up arbitrarily.
Kracker, it's so easy to say you'd be ready to accept possibility of being accidentally arrested when you know it's never going to happen. Why? Because you're white caucasian, US citizen and not muslim. On your previous posts you've shown how uncompromising you are when it comes to your rights to bear arms etc. Why this sudden change?
But there is a bit of truth in your post... Not so long ago usa stated that their soldiers are above international laws and can only be judged in american court.
Darth, as usually, blindly believes that because mr B says those held in gitmo are criminals, they for sure are. I agree with things you wrote and pasted about Geneva, but those really don't matter if prisoners (or whatever you call them) can be picked up arbitrarily.
Kracker, it's so easy to say you'd be ready to accept possibility of being accidentally arrested when you know it's never going to happen. Why? Because you're white caucasian, US citizen and not muslim. On your previous posts you've shown how uncompromising you are when it comes to your rights to bear arms etc. Why this sudden change?
Is there anyone else here who thinks like this? I bet you've never been outside the state you're living in. So anyone exiting their country could be treated as an outlaw?messfeeder wrote:
These prisoners are not US citizens, therefore they do not DESERVE the same rights as us.
But there is a bit of truth in your post... Not so long ago usa stated that their soldiers are above international laws and can only be judged in american court.
Oh I'm sorry. I just took:lowing wrote:
LOL, this is typical bubbalo, he can't dream up a real response so he has to try and twist and disect your sentence into something evil instead of taking what you said at face value, knowing damn well what you meant.Bubbalo wrote:
So, only Americans get basic human rights now?
Since he has no argument to cover yours, at face value he takes it an an obviously absurd level.
To mean that he felt Americans deserved more rights than anyone else. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But that's how it reads to me.messfeeder wrote:
These prisoners are not US citizens, therefore they do not DESERVE the same rights as us.
He calls me an asshole with no explanation and I'm to blame for ruining the thread?PekkaA wrote:
Aah.. Must be 100th thread ruined by Horseman & Bubbalo.
Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-07-04 01:25:41)
it just means that our constitution applies to us, not canada, uruguay, borneo, or anywhere else
So, you deserve more rights because you have a piece of paper? Oh, praise the lord, the saviour has arrived! And lo: He bears PAPER!
You dont fucking get it do you? These prisoners WANT the same rights as US citizens. They want Private US citizens rights to due process. There frigging terrorists. They are combatants and were bearing arms against us with intent to KILL us. They are from every country in the world, thus they belong to no specific army, so the Geneva convention should not apply. You consider yourself a man of logic, wheres the logic in your thinking on this topic? did it fly out the window? I mean come on now, your hatred for americans is so evident, yet most here dont have a blind hate for Aussie's. You judge ALL americans at face value because of what? tourists? Thats shallow and sad. I honestly feel bad for you for not being able to see outside the little world you have created for yourself based on a few americans you might have met.Bubbalo wrote:
So, you deserve more rights because you have a piece of paper? Oh, praise the lord, the saviour has arrived! And lo: He bears PAPER!
But that's the point isn't it: They have not been to trial yet, you have yet to prove that they are terrorists. Many of them were picked up in Iraq and Afghanistan where a war was going on.
When have I said all Americans are stupid, or I hate all Americans? Where? I haven't even said I hate any of you: I consider your morals questionable, and your conscience selectively applied, that is all. I do dislike America the country. But that's a big difference. My logic is that all human beings have the right not to be treated like animals, and not to be imprisoned for years without any form of review of whether they are or are not terrorists. My logic is that all people have the same rights except where it can be shown that they use those rights to impinge on others rights. My logic is that if I have rights as a human being, so does anyone else, anywhere in the world. My logic is that before I am a Melbournian I am a Victorian, that before I am a Victorian I am an Australian, and that before I am Australian I am a human, and that is where the majority of my rights lie.
My logic, also, is that the US Army cannot be trusted to be fair and equal because it has a vested interest in going too far.
When have I said all Americans are stupid, or I hate all Americans? Where? I haven't even said I hate any of you: I consider your morals questionable, and your conscience selectively applied, that is all. I do dislike America the country. But that's a big difference. My logic is that all human beings have the right not to be treated like animals, and not to be imprisoned for years without any form of review of whether they are or are not terrorists. My logic is that all people have the same rights except where it can be shown that they use those rights to impinge on others rights. My logic is that if I have rights as a human being, so does anyone else, anywhere in the world. My logic is that before I am a Melbournian I am a Victorian, that before I am a Victorian I am an Australian, and that before I am Australian I am a human, and that is where the majority of my rights lie.
My logic, also, is that the US Army cannot be trusted to be fair and equal because it has a vested interest in going too far.
Ok you say Where a war was going on, that answers one of my questions, but Ill say again, they had NO identifying markings on there uniform. The geneva convention states in some manner that a soldier in a war situation have some indetifying markings. Have you ever seen the movies? name Rank And Serial Number please. Theres NO way to identify an enimy that comes from all corners of the world dressed in whatever he feels like wearing that day hes caught. That in itself Nulls the Geneva convention. Hate to say it(because i believe they deserve those rights myself, and there getting them in there treatment) Aside a few bad apples in the US Military.
No, the American army says they had no identifying markings. Besides which, militia tend not to have uniforms. It's kinda one of the defining featurs of militia. And I'm not talking about the Geneva Conventions (it's actually technically a series of agreements, people just tend to leave of the s), but basic human rights. And the very fact that they have been imprisoned without going on trial proves that they are not given these rights.
Besides which, the current discussion is about this statement:
Besides which, the current discussion is about this statement:
Which you just disagreed with.messfeeder wrote:
These prisoners are not US citizens, therefore they do not DESERVE the same rights as us.
I do disagree There NOT american and there Not in america, But these prisoners ARE being processed and let out. Might take quite some time, but they ARE being processed. Unless CNN has lied about the couple hundred released. Ill tend to believe a leftist news agency when it comes to such issues as releases, because they got there noses so stuck up Gitmos ass its not even funny.Bubbalo wrote:
No, the American army says they had no identifying markings. Besides which, militia tend not to have uniforms. It's kinda one of the defining featurs of militia. And I'm not talking about the Geneva Conventions (it's actually technically a series of agreements, people just tend to leave of the s), but basic human rights. And the very fact that they have been imprisoned without going on trial proves that they are not given these rights.
Besides which, the current discussion is about this statement:Which you just disagreed with.messfeeder wrote:
These prisoners are not US citizens, therefore they do not DESERVE the same rights as us.
Until it is proven in an unbiased court with full representation and access to evidence, these ppl are not "combatants and were bearing arms against us with intent to KILL us" If they prove them guilty, then they can be punished.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
You dont fucking get it do you? These prisoners WANT the same rights as US citizens. They want Private US citizens rights to due process. There frigging terrorists. They are combatants and were bearing arms against us with intent to KILL us. They are from every country in the world, thus they belong to no specific army, so the Geneva convention should not apply.
Just because these ppl have been put there does not mean they are automatically guilty. When someone gets arrested in USA are they thrown into a cell to rot? I can't believe that anyone could argue for the current system of internment. I think what people against Guantanamo are saying is, prove these ppl are guilty or let them go. Its they way it happens all around the world. Even countries named in the Axis of Evil afford their own ppl, as well as foreign nationals some sort of a trial.
Remember these people have lives and children which they are being kept from without any trial. They are human-fucking-beings, although the way some ppl on these boards talk, you would think they are animals, with the same rights. The Nazis got their trials at Nuremberg. Even though their atrocities far out weigh anything that can be thrown at the detainees at Guantanamo. The difference? Our government labeled them Solders. These days we label them terrorist, then its ok to bend and break international laws.
And my logic is all human beings have the right not to be tortured, be-headed, blown up in a market, a plane a building etc by terroristic animals... i take a stand that we must fight back against such a world, what the hell is your stand?? talk them to death??, or succumb?Bubbalo wrote:
But that's the point isn't it: They have not been to trial yet, you have yet to prove that they are terrorists. Many of them were picked up in Iraq and Afghanistan where a war was going on.
When have I said all Americans are stupid, or I hate all Americans? Where? I haven't even said I hate any of you: I consider your morals questionable, and your conscience selectively applied, that is all. I do dislike America the country. But that's a big difference. My logic is that all human beings have the right not to be treated like animals, and not to be imprisoned for years without any form of review of whether they are or are not terrorists. My logic is that all people have the same rights except where it can be shown that they use those rights to impinge on others rights. My logic is that if I have rights as a human being, so does anyone else, anywhere in the world. My logic is that before I am a Melbournian I am a Victorian, that before I am a Victorian I am an Australian, and that before I am Australian I am a human, and that is where the majority of my rights lie.
My logic, also, is that the US Army cannot be trusted to be fair and equal because it has a vested interest in going too far.
so tell me, a non-australian citizen goes on trial in India, how exactly does that partain to the legal process as described in the Australian court system....Bubbalo wrote:
So, you deserve more rights because you have a piece of paper? Oh, praise the lord, the saviour has arrived! And lo: He bears PAPER!
Your saviour has arrived, and lo he bears common sense.
I have asked bubalo to PM me if his rant isn't specific to the post and he will not so stfu and leave me out of it if you have no idea what your talking about. tyPekkaA wrote:
Aah.. Must be 100th thread ruined by Horseman & Bubbalo. Could you play in private please? .
You support every human beings' right not to be tortured? Wow. Quite honestly, from your previous posts, I would have thought you supported the extraordinary rendition practiced by the CIA and the torture that happened at Camps X-Ray and Delta.lowing wrote:
And my logic is all human beings have the right not to be tortured, be-headed, blown up in a market, a plane a building etc by terroristic animals... i take a stand that we must fight back against such a world, what the hell is your stand?? talk them to death??, or succumb?
I never thought I'd say this but I'm with Lowing on this one. Basic human rights for all.
Okay, I admit I don't get it. Maybe if I say what I think you're saying, but in my own words, maybe you can say whether I have understood what you're saying.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
You dont fucking get it do you? These prisoners WANT the same rights as US citizens. They want Private US citizens rights to due process. There frigging terrorists. They are combatants and were bearing arms against us with intent to KILL us. They are from every country in the world, thus they belong to no specific army, so the Geneva convention should not apply. You consider yourself a man of logic, wheres the logic in your thinking on this topic? did it fly out the window? I mean come on now, your hatred for americans is so evident, yet most here dont have a blind hate for Aussie's. You judge ALL americans at face value because of what? tourists? Thats shallow and sad. I honestly feel bad for you for not being able to see outside the little world you have created for yourself based on a few americans you might have met.
As I understand it, you are saying that the US Constitution only applies to US citizens - civilians, members of the armed forces, tourists, etc. As I understand the 8th Amendment to the US Constitution, and forgive me if I have misunderstood it - I'm not an American and I'm not practiced in legal jargon, it says that excessive bail shall not be required nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments imposed.
So, and again forgive me if I have this wrong, but from what I have read, it seems unconstitutional for a US citizen to impose a cruel or unusual punishment.
Hahahahahahahaha, please tell me you're joking right? please!Spearhead wrote:
As Americans, we usually try to strive for excellence. That includes treating enemies with utmost care and respect. It's what gave us a good name, before Vietnam.
Yeah but the difference between you and me is, I believe sometimes you have to fight for it. Somethings are worth fighting and dying for. Protecting our way of life against those that would destroy it is another.aardfrith wrote:
You support every human beings' right not to be tortured? Wow. Quite honestly, from your previous posts, I would have thought you supported the extraordinary rendition practiced by the CIA and the torture that happened at Camps X-Ray and Delta.lowing wrote:
And my logic is all human beings have the right not to be tortured, be-headed, blown up in a market, a plane a building etc by terroristic animals... i take a stand that we must fight back against such a world, what the hell is your stand?? talk them to death??, or succumb?
I never thought I'd say this but I'm with Lowing on this one. Basic human rights for all.