Xietsu
Banned
+50|6811
What stance do you have on the moral foundings and inclinations of man? Is man naturally good, evil, or neutral in a sense?

I believe that, as dictated by genetic DNA, certain tendencies are particular to an individual. One may come off as being both good and evil, as their reponsive construct has developed an intrinsic, primal method of approach, varying from person to person. To judge man as being originally and exclusively either good or evil is to demonize the human species, as one is most likely, innately, resemblant of the two axes. Discush fohkz.
TehSeraphim
Thread Ender
+58|6979|New Hampshire
I tend to side with Thomas Hobbes on the inclinations of man, being that if man were left to his own devices life would be "nasty, brutish, and short".  I believe that, fundamentally, humans will act in their own interests over those of others.  A person who believes that killing is morally wrong, for example, may kill someone in self defense.

This isn't truely a question about morality, for morality is dictated by those who have power.  For example, morality for Muslims is much different than morality for Christians.  On the same token, good and evil all depend on which side of the story you happen to side with.  No one is TRUELY neutral (you hear me Switzerland? lol). 

In the end, it's not that mankind is good or bad; it's that we are self serving.  "good" and "bad" are concepts created by societies we live in and are not relative to what we are as a species in the long run.  You don't call an eagle bad for killing a fish to feed themselves; you don't call the fish good for being killed - it's just how things work.  The only reason we can say that humans are good or bad is because we've risen above the funadementals of life - we (for the most part) don't focus on surviving; we strive to make life better with technology, education, and the arts.

Our DNA DOES dictate somewhat how we function as a person, and this does change from person to person.  Testosterone being the hormone of aggression, males are typically more aggressive than females.  Those males who have an extra chromosome (XYY, also known as supermales) are overly aggressive and violent.  This makes a great case for genetics dominating who we are; but can't completely cancel out the nurture side in the nature vs. nurture debate.  Just because you're born with genetics doesn't mean you will turn out a certain way - it just means you're more likely to.

In the end though, man is truely moral-less.  We are born tabla rasa (clean slate) and from there our moral code is written upon us by our parents, friends, and culture we live in.  Since no person is born in a vacuum, free of any and all influence, it's impossible to avoid being morally slanted to a certain viewpoint.  It's important to remember that morals are just that though, a viewpoint - a way to interpret life, a code of conduct, and a way to separate right from wrong. 

Ultimately, there are two ways to answer this question.  Firstly, if you're speaking of man in the nature state - devoid of all culture, governments, and social groups, much like man in an animal state, then no, man would have no "morals" and would act out of impulse with an emphasis on the self over others.  In modern society however, man is not naturally good or evil - all men are, in a way, neutral.  For what I in the United States may view as Good, someone in Afghanistan may view as evil - this doesn't make either one of us right, it just makes us different.
Stomper_40k
Re-Incarnation. You mean re-spawn right?
+44|6900|Cardiff - Wales - UK
Good - Evil is all a metter of perspective
Xietsu
Banned
+50|6811

Stomper_40k wrote:

Good - Evil is all a metter of perspective
As per dictation by our modern code of ethics? No...it isn't.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6899

Xietsu wrote:

Stomper_40k wrote:

Good - Evil is all a metter of perspective
As per dictation by our modern code of ethics? No...it isn't.
our modern code of ethics is one perspective moron.  what was evil before may not be considered evil now.  its all relative.  evil does not exist.
TehSeraphim
Thread Ender
+58|6979|New Hampshire

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Xietsu wrote:

Stomper_40k wrote:

Good - Evil is all a metter of perspective
As per dictation by our modern code of ethics? No...it isn't.
our modern code of ethics is one perspective moron.  what was evil before may not be considered evil now.  its all relative.  evil does not exist.
How can you say evil does not exist if it's all a matter of perspective?  If good is a matter of perspective, then there must be something to compare good to, or how would you know something was good to begin with?  If you can see something as good, then there must be something evil to compare it to - yes, it depends on your perspective, but your perspective determines what is good and therefore what is evil.
LoMaX
Member
+24|6790|Sweden is banned from hell ;)

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Xietsu wrote:

Stomper_40k wrote:

Good - Evil is all a metter of perspective
As per dictation by our modern code of ethics? No...it isn't.
our modern code of ethics is one perspective moron.  what was evil before may not be considered evil now.  its all relative.  evil does not exist.
And then Good does not exist either?

So when someone is giving you -1 in Karma.. you do not care at all, or getting TK'd in BF2. I do.

But I agree you have a point. Things seems to differ over time. But in the context of that time, things can still be experienced as Good or Evil? The Law of Yin and Yang?

PEACE / LoMaX
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6810
Man is not inherently good or inherently evil. Man is driven by the 'survival instinct' and 'the pleasure principle' primarily and that can drive man to things that are considered evil and also to do things that are considered good.
Xietsu
Banned
+50|6811

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Xietsu wrote:

Stomper_40k wrote:

Good - Evil is all a metter of perspective
As per dictation by our modern code of ethics? No...it isn't.
our modern code of ethics is one perspective moron.  what was evil before may not be considered evil now.  its all relative.  evil does not exist.
What the fuck? Clearly you don't understand what the fuck is being said here. When I speak of there NOT being an issue of perspective through our modern systems of ethics, the point is that THERE IS NO DEBATE about what is good and evil, based upon these establishments--your referencing past cultures and their moral constructs is irrelevant, and downright fucking stupid. Stay the fuck out of my thread if you're going to pollute it with misconception.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6899
LOL what an asshole. hes telling ME to get out HIS thread because IM POLLUTING
  HAHA


dumbfuck
LoMaX
Member
+24|6790|Sweden is banned from hell ;)

CameronPoe wrote:

Man is not inherently good or inherently evil. Man is driven by the 'survival instinct' and 'the pleasure principle' primarily and that can drive man to things that are considered evil and also to do things that are considered good.
That's quite true is man is just a walking piece of meat with a logical brain. But what the heck is love then - oh, that's just a chemical reaction in the brain.. and how do we know that we exist in the first place?

I dunno, but love FEELS great and experienced for me as good. And by the way, I did not say Man was either good or evil when born into this world.. We make different choises..

But you have a point as well.. I do also think we are driven by instinct basic to more delicate ones. But not everything is calculated by Maslow.. right? He is not all Good? or Bad.

I do stand by that the rich world have the luxury to reflect upon what's good/bad that poor people do not.. So to say "the delicate principles of life". Some just try to survive the day. I wonder how that feels like?

Interesting tread.

/LoMaX
TehSeraphim
Thread Ender
+58|6979|New Hampshire
Calm down guys.

Xietsu - your original question was to ask whether man was naturally good, evil or neutral.

"As per dictation of our modern code of ethics" is simply ONE perspective of what is good and evil, since not all of us posess the same moden code of ethics.

Gunslinger - If you have a perspective with ethics, then there is an evil - it exists to the holder of the code of ethics. 

Lemme kinda straighten this out, cuz I'm just a tad bit confused.  When xietsu said that there isn't an issue of perspective in our moden system of ethics, do you mean that if everyone has the same code of ethics is man good evil or neutral?
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6899
if there were only two people in the world, one evil and one good, who is gonna decide which is which.  thats why i say evil is non existant.  im sticking by my guns
TehSeraphim
Thread Ender
+58|6979|New Hampshire

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

if there were only two people in the world, one evil and one good, who is gonna decide which is which.  thats why i say evil is non existant.  im sticking by my guns
I know, I agree Gun, but you're looking at it from a third person perspective.  If you're looking at the two people and each person says they're good and the other is evil, then yes, evil would be nonexistent because no one would agree.  On the same token, good would not exist.

HOWEVER - if you WERE one of those people, and you saw the other person as evil and you good, then evil would exist to you, personally.

Does this make sense or can you clarify it a little bit for me?
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6899
its makes perfect sense.   thats how i feel.  evil AND good are all relative.   I think we might be on the same page
LoMaX
Member
+24|6790|Sweden is banned from hell ;)

TehSeraphim wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

if there were only two people in the world, one evil and one good, who is gonna decide which is which.  thats why i say evil is non existant.  im sticking by my guns
I know, I agree Gun, but you're looking at it from a third person perspective.  If you're looking at the two people and each person says they're good and the other is evil, then yes, evil would be nonexistent because no one would agree.  On the same token, good would not exist.

HOWEVER - if you WERE one of those people, and you saw the other person as evil and you good, then evil would exist to you, personally.

Does this make sense or can you clarify it a little bit for me?
Now there is a good argument. +1 to you both.

/LoMaX
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6899
fresh outta karma but both you deserve a nice fat plus
LoMaX
Member
+24|6790|Sweden is banned from hell ;)

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

fresh outta karma but both you deserve a nice fat plus
Pehaps in another life?
TehSeraphim
Thread Ender
+58|6979|New Hampshire

LoMaX wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Man is not inherently good or inherently evil. Man is driven by the 'survival instinct' and 'the pleasure principle' primarily and that can drive man to things that are considered evil and also to do things that are considered good.
That's quite true is man is just a walking piece of meat with a logical brain. But what the heck is love then - oh, that's just a chemical reaction in the brain.. and how do we know that we exist in the first place?

I dunno, but love FEELS great and experienced for me as good. And by the way, I did not say Man was either good or evil when born into this world.. We make different choises..

But you have a point as well.. I do also think we are driven by instinct basic to more delicate ones. But not everything is calculated by Maslow.. right? He is not all Good? or Bad.

I do stand by that the rich world have the luxury to reflect upon what's good/bad that poor people do not.. So to say "the delicate principles of life". Some just try to survive the day. I wonder how that feels like?

Interesting tread.

/LoMaX
Time to play devils advocate....

It's safe to assume that rich have more time to reflect on what's good/bad over poor people because, due to Maslows hierarchy of needs, they don't need to spend as much time surviving and can devote more time to thinking. 

It's also safe to assume that most people in Congress/Senate/Presidency are financially secure (how else could you run for office?).

If both these can be assumed to be true, then our current laws are made by financially secure people who control what is deemed right and wrong in the United States.  Given this information, is it ethical to subject those who are below the poverty line to an ethical standard set by those who are financially secure?  Just a thought.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6899

TehSeraphim wrote:

LoMaX wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Man is not inherently good or inherently evil. Man is driven by the 'survival instinct' and 'the pleasure principle' primarily and that can drive man to things that are considered evil and also to do things that are considered good.
That's quite true is man is just a walking piece of meat with a logical brain. But what the heck is love then - oh, that's just a chemical reaction in the brain.. and how do we know that we exist in the first place?

I dunno, but love FEELS great and experienced for me as good. And by the way, I did not say Man was either good or evil when born into this world.. We make different choises..

But you have a point as well.. I do also think we are driven by instinct basic to more delicate ones. But not everything is calculated by Maslow.. right? He is not all Good? or Bad.

I do stand by that the rich world have the luxury to reflect upon what's good/bad that poor people do not.. So to say "the delicate principles of life". Some just try to survive the day. I wonder how that feels like?

Interesting tread.

/LoMaX
Time to play devils advocate....

It's safe to assume that rich have more time to reflect on what's good/bad over poor people because, due to Maslows hierarchy of needs, they don't need to spend as much time surviving and can devote more time to thinking. 

It's also safe to assume that most people in Congress/Senate/Presidency are financially secure (how else could you run for office?).

If both these can be assumed to be true, then our current laws are made by financially secure people who control what is deemed right and wrong in the United States.  Given this information, is it ethical to subject those who are below the poverty line to an ethical standard set by those who are financially secure?  Just a thought.
thats a very good question.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2006-06-27 01:19:02)

B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7096|Cologne, Germany

Xietsu wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Xietsu wrote:


As per dictation by our modern code of ethics? No...it isn't.
our modern code of ethics is one perspective moron.  what was evil before may not be considered evil now.  its all relative.  evil does not exist.
What the fuck? Clearly you don't understand what the fuck is being said here. When I speak of there NOT being an issue of perspective through our modern systems of ethics, the point is that THERE IS NO DEBATE about what is good and evil, based upon these establishments--your referencing past cultures and their moral constructs is irrelevant, and downright fucking stupid. Stay the fuck out of my thread if you're going to pollute it with misconception.
lol, Xietsu, what's going on ? Are you losing it ?

Two things here:

1. this is not your thread, and most certainly you are not the one to decide who posts here.
2. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, using insults like that is not helping to support your argument.
To the contrary, such behaviour will damage your reputation on the long run and and is bound to stop people from taking you seriously....

Let's try to keep this debate insult-free, shall we ?
parthian1000
Member
+8|6916|The Barbary Coast
Debating whether or not good and evil exist is not something a healthy society wants to do.  Its the worst kind of post-modern navel gazing that ultimately condemns us to oblivion -  even if it is an accurate account.  Quite clearly as a society there are some things we want to encourage and some discourage regardless of the philosophical arguments about good and evil.

As for the nature of humanity, I agree with the position that at a basic level we are driven by individual needs and the "pleasure principle".  That said people frequently override that hard wired programming due to the social software that we all carry about.  I might want to eat that sandwich in M&S but my social programming tells me I have to buy it first - its that that holds society together.  I would argue that, certainly in the UK, society is decaying because we no longer share the same values across the whole community.
LividCow
Mmmmm...Beeeeer
+13|6814|MN, USA
In my experiences, I have come to the conclusion that some people are inherently good whilst others are inherently evil.  I have two children.  One, I think, was born of the evil kind.  She needs constant nurturing of her good.  The other daughter is naturally good, to the outside view she would appear naive.  Again, to all your points good and evil are very relative. 

There is no Good without Evil.  There is no light without a dark.  The Yin and Yang theory.  You can't have one without the other.  No matter what perspective you are looking at it from.

Awesome thought processes gentlemen.  Fun reading.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6899
Good and Evil is just too black and white for me in this gray world
messfeeder
Member
+31|6783|Gotham

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Xietsu wrote:

Stomper_40k wrote:

Good - Evil is all a metter of perspective
As per dictation by our modern code of ethics? No...it isn't.
our modern code of ethics is one perspective moron.  what was evil before may not be considered evil now.  its all relative.  evil does not exist.
Who the hell are you, Mary Baker Eddie?

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