What this boils down to, quite simply, is enemy combatants, or supporters of those combatants, being improsioned for their actions against our nation during a time of war. Dealing with the enemies of our nation is a duty handled by our military, and, since this is a military matter, they will handle it in a way they see fit. As someone previously stated, if you don't want to end up in prison, don't commit crimes or support those who do. Now, we could waste time second guessing every last appointment to this facility, which would only take, hmmm, about 2 decades, or, we could live happily knowing the fact that those imprisioned can not gain access to aircraft, firearms, explosives, or, perhaps even more threatening, classified information that they can then distribute among their allies, "peacefully". Basically, this is an AMERICAN prison facility, so, to be quite blunt, the opinions of those of you outside this nations borders, are immaterial and pointless. Just as I'm sure you wouldn't want me to dictate how, for example, Australian prisions handle their criminals, you have no right to dictate how we handle ours.
Not all of these guys were actually even Taliban or even fighters . They were simply sold out by other people who had feuds in the past . One guy was caught lieing about some information he gave about the whereabouts of Taliban fighters . He basically had a squabble with some guy paying him money back . So instead of trying to get his money back he simply told American Special forces that the guy was taliban and he saw him running guns or what ever . So he got picked up and tossed in Gitmo for 2 years . The guy was a freaking cab driver . Fail . Now this guy has been toutured for 2 years and let go . Gee wonder how he feels about the good 'ol USA now . Peobably going to see his taxi and buy some machineguns and join the Taliban .lowing wrote:
I will tell you just how I feel about those stinkin animals held as POW's in Gitmo.......maybe if the rest of them hurry up and kill themselves and go to mecca we can close the place down.
I am not going to show concern over our enemies before concern for our troops.
Fail - Fail - Fail .
People, you either consider this a war, and give the combatants the status of POW, thereby protecting their rights under the Geneva Convention, or you arrest them as criminals and provide a lawyer for defense, free of charge, and the same rights as criminals in the US.
There's no "grey zone", you either give them one or the other. And, if you don't, I take pride in calling you the most un-American person in the country.
There's no "grey zone", you either give them one or the other. And, if you don't, I take pride in calling you the most un-American person in the country.
Last edited by Spearhead (2006-06-11 15:00:15)
I would think it to be so very false that those within the international community be without allowance to judge. Considering that such a prison holds detainees on the international level, others within globe have complete access for assessment. The point is that some of these people have the possibility of being held without just cause, just for, say, lousy suspicion, and that is entirely pathetic. Sure, maybe CameronPoe goes down there, and maybe he ends up in Guantanemo Bay--what the fuck could he do about it? Nothing. The contention many of those querying into this matter have, is the fact that there is no partial party to helped justify the imprisonment of the inmates currently held there, and I am in whole agreement with such a concern. Do I have an idea as to how to fix the problem? Hell no, as the only thing I've heard about such a facility are the arguments raised against it. So, if anyone were to be in the know about topics concerning the functioning of this locale, I'd like to take a look as well. O_o'
As ignorant as ever. So basically you do agree on stooping to the level of these scumbags?lowing wrote:
And flying airplanes into our city buildings, I think trumps the moral high ground issue.........screw them.CameronPoe wrote:
I didn't say it was as bad as Auschwitz, I just said there were similarities. I see it as a contravention of the Geneva Convention and you can spin the 'enemy combatants' vs 'POWs' argument whatever way you want but any right-minded person knows that this is wrong. Detention without trial or POW rights means the US have ceded the moral high ground and have damaged their respectability and credibility.kr@cker wrote:
tell me what great injustices are being served at Club Gitmo that have anything to do with Auschwitz. Do we stick em in ovens when we get tired of clothing them? Do we gas the shower rooms cuz it's cheaper than maintaining physical hygiene? The only similarities is that it has a big ass perimeter and you can't escape. Guess what, it's a fucking prison, you don't wanna go, don't run around supporting terrorist groups with green armbands and ski masks on. Don't go to the middle of a terrorist hot spot and try to get in good with them "cuz I was curious about Jihaad!" Prison is not another term for 5 star hotel, this particular one is the highest security prison on the face of the planet (that we know of) and as such you don't get cable tv, excercise rooms, basketball courts, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. You get prison!
I saw peewee herman molesting a toddler once....
See, it's easy to "say" things, I can say alot of things, "Oh baby, I'll never love anyone as much as I love you Beth....I mean Heather". I saw them throw a quran in a toilet, oohh they peed in the next room from where I keep my quran, no really trust me on this, these were heinous crimes in the face of humanity.
And so what if it's true, how does this compare to getting your fingernails pulled out with rusty pliers in say....North Korea. To compare this place to the historical gulags of the world is ludicrous, the worst part about the place is the fact that it's in Cuba. Sue mother nature.
you wanna see a real Cuban gulag, search out the words "Boniato Bay", this is where thousands of people end up after they disappear from the streets of Cuba for no apparent reason, other than you know wanting to be able to vote and stuff
no sympathy here, sorry
Nope I agree on punishing those reesponsible, for the act , for the finance and for the support of this act.CameronPoe wrote:
As ignorant as ever. So basically you do agree on stooping to the level of these scumbags?lowing wrote:
And flying airplanes into our city buildings, I think trumps the moral high ground issue.........screw them.CameronPoe wrote:
I didn't say it was as bad as Auschwitz, I just said there were similarities. I see it as a contravention of the Geneva Convention and you can spin the 'enemy combatants' vs 'POWs' argument whatever way you want but any right-minded person knows that this is wrong. Detention without trial or POW rights means the US have ceded the moral high ground and have damaged their respectability and credibility.
no sympathy here, sorry
Well charge them and execute/acquit them then. You seem to forget that there are probably completely innocent people incarcerated there. There have been several instances of people having been detained and tortured for several years to then be told 'Oh sorry we were wrong you can go home now. By the way, don't bother asking for compensation.' This in itself raises questions about the purpose and successfulness of the camp.lowing wrote:
Nope I agree on punishing those reesponsible, for the act , for the finance and for the support of this act.CameronPoe wrote:
As ignorant as ever. So basically you do agree on stooping to the level of these scumbags?lowing wrote:
And flying airplanes into our city buildings, I think trumps the moral high ground issue.........screw them.
no sympathy here, sorry
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-11 16:22:35)
Free 'em, hang 'em or let them go.
And I appreciate your nuanced, considered position.lowing wrote:
you and Bubbalo want to lay a black and white template on very fluid events. I maintain whatever my country has to do to protect its citizens I will support.
I'm not American but I perceive my interests as more or less in line with the American people -- that is the basis of my giving a shit. And that's why it pains me to see you fuck yourselves over for the sake of my shares in Raytheon and Lockheed Martin.lowing wrote:
If that means taking pre-emptive measures against our enemies so be it. Sorry ya hate that, but I sleep quite well at night.
The US built up an impressive array of allies during the Cold War, albeit not on the basis of blind allegiance to the flag -- that shit only ever works at home, for some reason. Same goes for 9/11 -- overwhelming worldwide support for the US. That support is all but gone now, because instead of constructing a response that played to and made use of the basis of that support (i.e. perceived shared values), Dubya played the jingoism card and unfortunately, its warm and fuzzy effects end at the border.
You may think the US (5% of the world's population) needs no allies but with China's economy coming up fast, it's a fucking odd time to be thinking of going it alone, to say the least. Many conservatives are aware of this and seek to shore up foreign support, but yes, others prefer to sleep tight with their heads firmly entrenched between their buttcheeks.
One of these groups is essentially betraying their country. Don't let your black-and-white "loyalty" trick you into guessing wrong on that count.
Oi, and indeed as well with those in charge of interning.CameronPoe wrote:
Well charge them and execute/acquit them then. You seem to forget that there are probably completely innocent people incarcerated there. There have been several instances of people having been detained and tortured for several years to then be told 'Oh sorry we were wrong you can go home now. By the way, don't bother asking for compensation.' This in itself raises questions about the purpose and successfulness of the camp.lowing wrote:
Nope I agree on punishing those reesponsible, for the act , for the finance and for the support of this act.CameronPoe wrote:
As ignorant as ever. So basically you do agree on stooping to the level of these scumbags?
lowing iv warned you twice, from now on on if you keep double posting im just going to delete them.
do what ever ya want hero. I already told ya I don't know how to paste multiple posts together, and besides, I am responding to 2 different people.the_heart_attack wrote:
lowing iv warned you twice, from now on on if you keep double posting im just going to delete them.
But I betcha you aren't doing this shit to anyone you agree with.
Last edited by lowing (2006-06-11 18:55:20)
highlight/copy/paste. there now you know.lowing wrote:
do what ever ya want hero. I already told ya I don't know how to paste multiple posts together, and besides, I am responding to 2 different people.the_heart_attack wrote:
lowing iv warned you twice, from now on on if you keep double posting im just going to delete them.
But I betcha you aren't doing this shit to anyone you agree with.
Also use a very interesting, orange, link named 'Edit'.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Internet videos? Not really. Who cares? It does not change the fact that these questions and many more are unanswered. It’s not a conspiracy theory; it’s about wanting justice and the truth.lowing wrote:
Boy, you sure do watch alot of internet videos don't ya
911 was planned under Clintons watch pal, Bush just inherited it.
the confusion that was present during the attacks is completely understandable. After everything was starting to become clear the govt. shifted into gear and in a matter of a few hours had 1000's of airplanes back on the ground without incident. Unlike Clinton, who made our country appear weak in the face of the world, Bush took a stand and is fighting back, and we have not been attacked since.
Who cares when 911 was planned? It could have been planned in a tent in Libya or a safe house in Afghanistan. BUSH FAILED, RUMSFELD FAILED to protect you!
It took 19 minutes to get to Payne Stewart's Learjet yet not 1 jet could make it anywhere on 9/11 when the attack was on. FAILURE.
1 person has been to trial over 9/11. 1 person? Is that all? FAILURE
And to say that you have not been attacked since cos of him is rubbish. But I guess that cannot be proven or disproved.
You conservatives always try to blame someone else. Its was Clintons fault, liberals are ruining this country, the media is too liberal, blah blah blah, zzz
Your "who cares" mentality when approached leaves very little room for discussion so I won't bother. Besides I will just get deleted anyway.BN wrote:
Internet videos? Not really. Who cares? It does not change the fact that these questions and many more are unanswered. It’s not a conspiracy theory; it’s about wanting justice and the truth.lowing wrote:
Boy, you sure do watch alot of internet videos don't ya
911 was planned under Clintons watch pal, Bush just inherited it.
the confusion that was present during the attacks is completely understandable. After everything was starting to become clear the govt. shifted into gear and in a matter of a few hours had 1000's of airplanes back on the ground without incident. Unlike Clinton, who made our country appear weak in the face of the world, Bush took a stand and is fighting back, and we have not been attacked since.
Who cares when 911 was planned? It could have been planned in a tent in Libya or a safe house in Afghanistan. BUSH FAILED, RUMSFELD FAILED to protect you!
It took 19 minutes to get to Payne Stewart's Learjet yet not 1 jet could make it anywhere on 9/11 when the attack was on. FAILURE.
1 person has been to trial over 9/11. 1 person? Is that all? FAILURE
And to say that you have not been attacked since cos of him is rubbish. But I guess that cannot be proven or disproved.
You conservatives always try to blame someone else. Its was Clintons fault, liberals are ruining this country, the media is too liberal, blah blah blah, zzz
Last edited by lowing (2006-06-11 19:44:58)
Since when was Clinton viewed as "weak" by the rest of the world? You have some research to do, lowing.
Why not talk about the issues I have raised here?lowing wrote:
Your "who cares" mentality when approached leaves very little room for discussion so I won't bother. Besides I will just get deleted anyway.BN wrote:
Internet videos? Not really. Who cares? It does not change the fact that these questions and many more are unanswered. It’s not a conspiracy theory; it’s about wanting justice and the truth.lowing wrote:
Boy, you sure do watch alot of internet videos don't ya
911 was planned under Clintons watch pal, Bush just inherited it.
the confusion that was present during the attacks is completely understandable. After everything was starting to become clear the govt. shifted into gear and in a matter of a few hours had 1000's of airplanes back on the ground without incident. Unlike Clinton, who made our country appear weak in the face of the world, Bush took a stand and is fighting back, and we have not been attacked since.
Who cares when 911 was planned? It could have been planned in a tent in Libya or a safe house in Afghanistan. BUSH FAILED, RUMSFELD FAILED to protect you!
It took 19 minutes to get to Payne Stewart's Learjet yet not 1 jet could make it anywhere on 9/11 when the attack was on. FAILURE.
1 person has been to trial over 9/11. 1 person? Is that all? FAILURE
And to say that you have not been attacked since cos of him is rubbish. But I guess that cannot be proven or disproved.
You conservatives always try to blame someone else. Its was Clintons fault, liberals are ruining this country, the media is too liberal, blah blah blah, zzz
February 26, 1993 A bomb explodes in the basement of the World Trade Center in New York, killing 6 and wounding more than a thousand.Spearhead wrote:
Since when was Clinton viewed as "weak" by the rest of the world? You have some research to do, lowing.
March 8, 1995 Two U.S. diplomats are killed by unknown gunmen in Karachi, Pakistan.
April 19, 1995 The Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma is bombed, killing 168. Extremists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols are responsible for the attack.
June 25, 1996 A fuel truck explodes outside the United States military's Khobar Towers building, killing 19 military personnel and wounding 515.
July 27, 1996 A bomb was detonated in the Olympic Park in Atlanta, Georgia during the Summer Olympics, causing the death of two people and injuring 110 others. An extremists also suspected of bombing an abortion clinic is responsible for the attack
February 23, 1997 A Palestinian gunman opens fire on tourists on an observation deck at the Empire State Building, killing one and wounding others.
November 12, 1997 Four U.S. businessmen are killed in Karachi, Pakistan by members of the Islamic Revolutionary Council.
August 7, 1998 In near simultaneous explosions at U.S. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, Al Qaeda terrorists kill 291 and wound 5,000 in Kenya and kill 10 and wound 77 in Tanzania.
The USS Cole bombing was a suicide bombing attack against the U.S. Navy guided missile destroyer USS Cole (DDG 67) on October 12, 2000 while it was harbored in the Yemeni port of Aden.
All of this with not one measurable response ( except for OC bombing and that was not Clintons doing anyway ). i will also add to this the Somalia events when 18 soldiers were killed, so Clinton cut and ran. Now if you see a show of strength in any of these incidences I am willing to listen.
How is my research??
BN,
I already answered that......You will lable a "who cares" on everthing I say and call my opinion "rubbish "quite frankly if "who cares" is your response to my opinion then you leave very little room for discussion.
Last edited by lowing (2006-06-11 20:08:33)
coward, you cant even rebut my post.lowing wrote:
BN,
I already answered that......You will lable a "who cares" on everthing I say and call my opinion "rubbish "quite frankly if "who cares" is your response to my opinion then you leave very little room for discussion.
Actually, you are the one who can't rebut a response... i give you............"who cares" from the master debater. very profound, you nailed me with "who cares" yer right, boy, you are too tough for me.BN wrote:
coward, you cant even rebut my post.lowing wrote:
BN,
I already answered that......You will label a "who cares" on everything I say and call my opinion "rubbish "quite frankly if "who cares" is your response to my opinion then you leave very little room for discussion.
As far as the rubbish comment about the US not being attacked since 911. If it is rubbish please post the article where Al Qaeda attacked US soil after 911. If you can't then it is hardly rubbish. Since if you hold Bush responsible for things bad in this issue, you MUST hold him equally responsible for all things GOOD. It might be a tough pill to swallow but you are gunna have to like it or not.
nehhhh to be honest, I simply choose not to deal with your bullshit. I already have my plate full with Bubbalo and his side kicks I don't want another.......Go bother Horseman77 or yerded see if they have time for your dumb shit. If all you have to bring to the table is a bunch of "who cares" in a rebuttal, you are just not worth the effort.
Last edited by lowing (2006-06-11 20:29:23)
Agreed, but its in CUBACameronPoe wrote:
I implore everyone to rent or buy 'The Road to Guantanamo' movie by Michael Winterbottom. It won the Silver Bear at the Berlin film festival. It tells the story of three british youths who were mistakenly sent to Guantanamo Bay for TWO AND A HALF YEARS! It is harrowing and makes me sick that a fellow western nation can have a camp like this on their soil.
A multi- billion dollar war and a 5 year commitment is not required for every country who has experienced terrorism. Terrorism (as we know it) has been around since WW2, my friend. Clinton, and all of the other presidents and world leaders have had very successful campaigns in anti-terrorism. And so has Bush, in physical respects, but the Afghanistan and Iraq wars are just another excuse for them to get more recruits. Left or right, you can't deny that.lowing wrote:
February 26, 1993 A bomb explodes in the basement of the World Trade Center in New York, killing 6 and wounding more than a thousand.Spearhead wrote:
Since when was Clinton viewed as "weak" by the rest of the world? You have some research to do, lowing.
March 8, 1995 Two U.S. diplomats are killed by unknown gunmen in Karachi, Pakistan.
April 19, 1995 The Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma is bombed, killing 168. Extremists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols are responsible for the attack.
June 25, 1996 A fuel truck explodes outside the United States military's Khobar Towers building, killing 19 military personnel and wounding 515.
July 27, 1996 A bomb was detonated in the Olympic Park in Atlanta, Georgia during the Summer Olympics, causing the death of two people and injuring 110 others. An extremists also suspected of bombing an abortion clinic is responsible for the attack
February 23, 1997 A Palestinian gunman opens fire on tourists on an observation deck at the Empire State Building, killing one and wounding others.
November 12, 1997 Four U.S. businessmen are killed in Karachi, Pakistan by members of the Islamic Revolutionary Council.
August 7, 1998 In near simultaneous explosions at U.S. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, Al Qaeda terrorists kill 291 and wound 5,000 in Kenya and kill 10 and wound 77 in Tanzania.
The USS Cole bombing was a suicide bombing attack against the U.S. Navy guided missile destroyer USS Cole (DDG 67) on October 12, 2000 while it was harbored in the Yemeni port of Aden.
All of this with not one measurable response ( except for OC bombing and that was not Clintons doing anyway ). i will also add to this the Somalia events when 18 soldiers were killed, so Clinton cut and ran. Now if you see a show of strength in any of these incidences I am willing to listen.
How is my research??
BN,
I already answered that......You will lable a "who cares" on everthing I say and call my opinion "rubbish "quite frankly if "who cares" is your response to my opinion then you leave very little room for discussion.
Both democrats and republicans are identical in the way they argue. That said, you cannot call Clinton a "coward", as he was not president during 9/11. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have sat back and done "nothing". But I can say that no one would've expected something as absurd as invading Iraq over 9/11.
lowing, when and where is the line going to be drawn? There are fucked up people and criminals in every country on the planet. And it's been that way since the dawn of time. I don't think we should do "nothing". At most, Afghanistan is a much more justified war than Iraq.
Blaming world events on the president is a very stupid thing to do, and both dems and reps do it. The world has gone under constant shit, some place or another, since the begining.
Last edited by Spearhead (2006-06-11 20:29:51)
hostilities in Iraq was not started up again because of 911........it was started up again because Iraq was breaking the cease fire agreements laid out in the UN resolutions.......He had almost a decade to fully comply, he did not, the hostilities started again. you have to separate the two campaigns as it was in 2001.Spearhead wrote:
A multi- billion dollar war and a 5 year commitment is not required for every country who has experienced terrorism. Terrorism (as we know it) has been around since WW2, my friend. Clinton, and all of the other presidents and world leaders have had very successful campaigns in anti-terrorism. And so has Bush, in physical respects, but the Afghanistan and Iraq wars are just another excuse for them to get more recruits. Left or right, you can't deny that.lowing wrote:
February 26, 1993 A bomb explodes in the basement of the World Trade Center in New York, killing 6 and wounding more than a thousand.Spearhead wrote:
Since when was Clinton viewed as "weak" by the rest of the world? You have some research to do, lowing.
March 8, 1995 Two U.S. diplomats are killed by unknown gunmen in Karachi, Pakistan.
April 19, 1995 The Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma is bombed, killing 168. Extremists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols are responsible for the attack.
June 25, 1996 A fuel truck explodes outside the United States military's Khobar Towers building, killing 19 military personnel and wounding 515.
July 27, 1996 A bomb was detonated in the Olympic Park in Atlanta, Georgia during the Summer Olympics, causing the death of two people and injuring 110 others. An extremists also suspected of bombing an abortion clinic is responsible for the attack
February 23, 1997 A Palestinian gunman opens fire on tourists on an observation deck at the Empire State Building, killing one and wounding others.
November 12, 1997 Four U.S. businessmen are killed in Karachi, Pakistan by members of the Islamic Revolutionary Council.
August 7, 1998 In near simultaneous explosions at U.S. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, Al Qaeda terrorists kill 291 and wound 5,000 in Kenya and kill 10 and wound 77 in Tanzania.
The USS Cole bombing was a suicide bombing attack against the U.S. Navy guided missile destroyer USS Cole (DDG 67) on October 12, 2000 while it was harbored in the Yemeni port of Aden.
All of this with not one measurable response ( except for OC bombing and that was not Clintons doing anyway ). i will also add to this the Somalia events when 18 soldiers were killed, so Clinton cut and ran. Now if you see a show of strength in any of these incidences I am willing to listen.
How is my research??
BN,
I already answered that......You will label a "who cares" on everything I say and call my opinion "rubbish "quite frankly if "who cares" is your response to my opinion then you leave very little room for discussion.
Both democrats and republicans are identical in the way they argue. That said, you cannot call Clinton a "coward", as he was not president during 9/11. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have sat back and done "nothing". But I can say that no one would've expected something as absurd as invading Iraq over 9/11.
lowing, when and where is the line going to be drawn? There are fucked up people and criminals in every country on the planet. And it's been that way since the dawn of time. I don't think we should do "nothing". At most, Afghanistan is a much more justified war than Iraq.
Blaming world events on the president is a very stupid thing to do, and both dems and reps do it. The world has gone under constant shit, some place or another, since the begining.
the history eludes me as far as previous presidents having to deal with terrorism from another country on our soil. Please provide references.
Afghanistan.........911.
Iraq..........Iraq broke the cease fire agreements.
By the way, I never called clinton a coward........not in this thread anyway.....in my opinion his lack of real responses to these acts did nothing to discourage further attacks. hence 911
Last edited by lowing (2006-06-12 03:41:31)
I think the point that the majority would wish be conveyed, is that a lot of missteps were made under the Bush administration. Failures for prevention, precaution, etc--whether or not it was directly a fault of Bush is irrelevant, as, in the national circumstance, an indirect failure is a weakness of the executive.
(P.S. Ironic that you have such a snide, bullshit attitude towards the_heart_attack when I've even commented on your failure to comply with his requests [at which point I provided exact instructions for ensuring such adherence].)
(P.S. Ironic that you have such a snide, bullshit attitude towards the_heart_attack when I've even commented on your failure to comply with his requests [at which point I provided exact instructions for ensuring such adherence].)
Last edited by Xietsu (2006-06-11 21:12:58)