BF2S Forums Fuel From Water

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Burning_Monkey wrote:

Xietsu wrote:

Sadduning is teh Aquygen .

But anyways...about biodiesel (I swore to duh life uvv me that we've discussed this before at BF2S)...not practical...too much arrable land required...not enough arrable land available.

That is a myth put out by PETA and other animal rights groups that want every one to convert to vegetarianism.  There is more than enough usable land, especially when you consider the best crop for making biodesiel is a weed that grows anywhere.

Said groups also want every one to convert to wind and solar power, which there isn't enough land for in most states and that is were they get the 'not enough land' claim from.

Just out of interested, what sort of yield would you expect from a modern farm if you couldn't use nitrogen (from natural gas) and machinery (powered by oil)?

well, as a farmer myself, I would say right about 'Jack shit bushels per acre' and you can quote me on that one.

This is not to say that I am not in favor of different means of fueling my equipment, the cost is huge and anything to bring that down I am all for.  But not enough land is a crock of shit.  There is plenty of land to plant different high oil crops and produce biodiesel.

Burning_Monkey wrote:

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Burning_Monkey wrote:

That is a myth put out by PETA and other animal rights groups that want every one to convert to vegetarianism.  There is more than enough usable land, especially when you consider the best crop for making biodesiel is a weed that grows anywhere.

Said groups also want every one to convert to wind and solar power, which there isn't enough land for in most states and that is were they get the 'not enough land' claim from.

Just out of interested, what sort of yield would you expect from a modern farm if you couldn't use nitrogen (from natural gas) and machinery (powered by oil)?

well, as a farmer myself, I would say right about 'Jack shit bushels per acre' and you can quote me on that one.

This is not to say that I am not in favor of different means of fueling my equipment, the cost is huge and anything to bring that down I am all for.  But not enough land is a crock of shit.  There is plenty of land to plant different high oil crops and produce biodiesel.

Enough land to supply the entire automotive industry within the US? Yeah right.

Rosse_modest wrote:

Nitrogen from natural gas?

Yep.  This is from the first google for 'nitrogen manufacture'.

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/NitrogenPrices/Index.htm

Most of the other popular forms of nitrogen fertilizer are made with anhydrous ammonia. Urea is formulated by a reaction between anhydrous ammonia and carbon dioxide at high temperature and pressure. Ammonium nitrate is formulated by combining anhydrous ammonia and nitric acid in a very corrosive manufacturing climate. Solution liquid fertilizers (28 to 32 percent nitrogen) are composed of one-half urea and one-half ammonium nitrate. It's pretty hard to apply a nitrogen fertilizer formulation that doesn't have natural gas in its manufacturing process.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Rosse_modest wrote:

Nitrogen from natural gas?

Yep.  This is from the first google for 'nitrogen manufacture'.

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/NitrogenPrices/Index.htm

Most of the other popular forms of nitrogen fertilizer are made with anhydrous ammonia. Urea is formulated by a reaction between anhydrous ammonia and carbon dioxide at high temperature and pressure. Ammonium nitrate is formulated by combining anhydrous ammonia and nitric acid in a very corrosive manufacturing climate. Solution liquid fertilizers (28 to 32 percent nitrogen) are composed of one-half urea and one-half ammonium nitrate. It's pretty hard to apply a nitrogen fertilizer formulation that doesn't have natural gas in its manufacturing process.

Natural gas can be used for 2 things when talking about the Haber-Bosch ammonia synthesis process:
- fuel to generate steam
- carbohydrate source for the synthesis of N2/H2 syn gas which is in turn used in the Haber-Bosch process itself

First off, however, natural gas is not the only way to produce syn gas. Nafta obtained from petroleum will do just as well, although I have no doubt natural gas is a more popular candidate nowadays. Very crudely put you'll just generate CO, CO2 and H2 by steam reforming either natural gas or nafta (or by using partial oxidation), then you'll add a little air (as the source of N2), perform a H2-shift to turn CO into CO2, remove CO2 via absorption (CO and CO2 are catalyst poisons for the catalyst used in the Haber-Bosch ammonia synthesis), remove the last traces of CO through methanation and voila: N2/H2 syn gas suitable for ammonia synthesis.

My original questioning of the statement nitrogen from natural gas lies in the use of the word from, since the nitrogen comes from air. I just found the from to be an unhappy choice of words. Nitrogen obtained through the use of natural gas or something similar would have been better :p

Last edited by Rosse_modest (2006-06-12 10:28:45)