lol and which website did you get the textbook definition from? lol :p
What did you want.
R= Redundant 0+1 means in a true RAID setup you have something to back up on in case of failure. RAID 0 has no faul tolerance. If a drive should fail...you lost all of the data.
A & I go hand in hand since this implies there are multiple and seperate drives
You can have various setups such as RAID 5. You have the capacity of 0+1 and the ability to rebuild any lost information due to the parity of the 4th drive (2 for stripe, 1 mirror and the 4th for the parity). You have the striping benefits as well. You can have up to RAID 7.
You weren't too concise in your question so I assumed you were asking a genuine question about what "it" is and so I answered in a really pretty simple fashion.
Well the info is everywhere. Most people who have played with it, know about it....most who don't look it up and will find just about the same answer.
It was originally developed in 1987 for SCSI hdd's and utilized on servers. It was useful for large software applications and database uses. As OS sytems moved into true 32 bit ranges (i.e. Windows2000) the OS was looking to take as much advantage from memory as it possibly could. Prior to that anything over 128 was wasted.
I guess you feel there is more that needs to be added. I am no expert and always looking for anything else.
O/T. Nice chopper stats, would like a chance to team up pilot/gunner and give people hell.
R= Redundant 0+1 means in a true RAID setup you have something to back up on in case of failure. RAID 0 has no faul tolerance. If a drive should fail...you lost all of the data.
A & I go hand in hand since this implies there are multiple and seperate drives
You can have various setups such as RAID 5. You have the capacity of 0+1 and the ability to rebuild any lost information due to the parity of the 4th drive (2 for stripe, 1 mirror and the 4th for the parity). You have the striping benefits as well. You can have up to RAID 7.
You weren't too concise in your question so I assumed you were asking a genuine question about what "it" is and so I answered in a really pretty simple fashion.
Well the info is everywhere. Most people who have played with it, know about it....most who don't look it up and will find just about the same answer.
It was originally developed in 1987 for SCSI hdd's and utilized on servers. It was useful for large software applications and database uses. As OS sytems moved into true 32 bit ranges (i.e. Windows2000) the OS was looking to take as much advantage from memory as it possibly could. Prior to that anything over 128 was wasted.
I guess you feel there is more that needs to be added. I am no expert and always looking for anything else.
O/T. Nice chopper stats, would like a chance to team up pilot/gunner and give people hell.
Last edited by Badcomp (2005-10-18 12:14:22)
I use it to kill bugs - "RAID kills bugs Dead!"shortah wrote:
How many of you guys actually know what RAID is and what the point of it is? jw.....
FYI
Best bang for your buck when you upgrade is usually RAM.
Remember that when you use Dual Channel, they need to come in matched pairs. Also check the MoBo documentation on which slots you can use to enable dual channel(Not all MoBos are intuitive).
Currently DDR RAM has lower latency timings than DDR2. Only faster DDR2 (PC6300) are getting closer to timings of DDR, but only the newest MoBos ususually support PC6300+.
RAID is a good way to get your feet wet, but its pretty spendy IMHO. In most cases you do need 2 identical drives. In some cases you may need 3 o rmore. The performance boost is mostly noticable when trying to serve a large size or quantity of files.
6800 GT cards are dropping in price or possibly even the 7800GT, but I think this would help performance as well, even though you say you cant afford it. Save your lunch money for a while and pick one up, I think its worth it. Currently Im running a 7800GTX @1024x768 with all the settings on high except for the lighting, which is on Medium. If found that after loading, I stuttered for 30 seconds with it on high, but 5 seconds when on medium.
Best bang for your buck when you upgrade is usually RAM.
Remember that when you use Dual Channel, they need to come in matched pairs. Also check the MoBo documentation on which slots you can use to enable dual channel(Not all MoBos are intuitive).
Currently DDR RAM has lower latency timings than DDR2. Only faster DDR2 (PC6300) are getting closer to timings of DDR, but only the newest MoBos ususually support PC6300+.
RAID is a good way to get your feet wet, but its pretty spendy IMHO. In most cases you do need 2 identical drives. In some cases you may need 3 o rmore. The performance boost is mostly noticable when trying to serve a large size or quantity of files.
6800 GT cards are dropping in price or possibly even the 7800GT, but I think this would help performance as well, even though you say you cant afford it. Save your lunch money for a while and pick one up, I think its worth it. Currently Im running a 7800GTX @1024x768 with all the settings on high except for the lighting, which is on Medium. If found that after loading, I stuttered for 30 seconds with it on high, but 5 seconds when on medium.
I don't think the 7800gt's come in AGP format...or do they? He said he doesn't have the cash for a mobo/cpu upgrade which he would need in addition to a PCI-E card.
Oh, my bad. Forgot 7800GT is only PCI-E.
Just for your (meaning who ever is reading this) information, the only implementation of RAID that would make sense would either be in a server configuration or if you were using your computer for a high accessed (meaning a lot of people are accessing your computer at once trying to access information off of it). If you wanted to do a RAID configuration, I would suggest a RAID 0 or RAID 1 setup. Also if you want the most bang out of your buck, I agree with CBRad929, Ram is def. your best bet. Make sure that your getting the right ram for your computer also. Make sure that you check your motherboard settings before purchasing it to make sure that the ram is compatible with computer. EX. My motherboard only supports 333-400mhz or pc2700-pc3200 speed ram. So my choice was the lowest latency, fatest ram I could find, or OCZ PC3200 Platinum Edition 2x1gig sticks in a matched pair.
Also remember if you are mixing your speeds, even though they are all compatible with your system, it will only run as fast as the slowest component. Meaning dont waste your money on faster RAM if you plan on keeping slower RAM.
Raid 0 has no error recovery, so if one drive bites it you lose everything. Also another thing to keep in mind is overhead. In some cases, even though you are using identical drives, you will not get the full allocation for storage.
To condense what Shortah said: Best performance noticed as a file server.
Raid 0 has no error recovery, so if one drive bites it you lose everything. Also another thing to keep in mind is overhead. In some cases, even though you are using identical drives, you will not get the full allocation for storage.
To condense what Shortah said: Best performance noticed as a file server.
I understand this...but if I RAID my two IDE Maxtor 80G 7200RPM drives will any increase in performance be noticed at all aside from having a file server? Also, if I upgrade the motherboard to dual channel will I notice an increase in performance? Nobody has given me a definite yes or no answer with explanation to this question; or given me a yes or no as to if the $30-50 would be worth it for such an upgrade.CBRad929 wrote:
To condense what Shortah said: Best performance noticed as a file server.
Yeah I have fast enough RAM (2x 1G Samsung PC3200 DDR 400Mhz) and that is what it's going to stay at cause I don't have the money to buy a new computer with DDR2 or whatever else the latest technology is. Even as it is I should be able to play the latest games at high settings for the next year and then have to slowing start turning things down. What I've said all along is that if $30-50 right now could possibly extend that period for another 3-6 months or so I would do it.
The question you ask has multiple answers - that is what people have been trying to say.Heffty wrote:
I understand this...but if I RAID my two IDE Maxtor 80G 7200RPM drives will any increase in performance be noticed at all aside from having a file server? Also, if I upgrade the motherboard to dual channel will I notice an increase in performance? Nobody has given me a definite yes or no answer with explanation to this question; or given me a yes or no as to if the $30-50 would be worth it for such an upgrade.CBRad929 wrote:
To condense what Shortah said: Best performance noticed as a file server.
Yeah I have fast enough RAM (2x 1G Samsung PC3200 DDR 400Mhz) and that is what it's going to stay at cause I don't have the money to buy a new computer with DDR2 or whatever else the latest technology is. Even as it is I should be able to play the latest games at high settings for the next year and then have to slowing start turning things down. What I've said all along is that if $30-50 right now could possibly extend that period for another 3-6 months or so I would do it.
If you RAID your drives and only play BF2 then you will not really see much difference.
If you work with large graphic files etc then you will see some improvement but it will not be mind blowing - like "Holy shit look how fast this is compared to before I set up a RAID"
I think this topic should be closed, we should open a new forum area for Tech hardware on this forum, and you should go to a hardware site and talk to them - Try GOOGLE! (no offense but there is a lot of good info here and you don't seem to be getting it).
http://www.acnc.com/04_01_00.html
http://www.infopackets.com/channels/en/ … rmance.htm
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=830
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ … /perf.html
http://archive.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/perfraid/perfraid.php\
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/Art … /5398.html
There are a few links so you don't even have to google it.
Answer - Go spend the crappy $50 bucks and set it up already!
What I would do if I were you is I would save your $30-50 and wait until you have $300-400 to spend on something. That way you can invest in getting something good and not get crap. But your ram should be fine for right now, the only thing I would see worth upgrading would possibly be that would have any factors in performance would be just tweaking your computer. Here are my specs for 1 of my computers at home that I game on.Heffty wrote:
I understand this...but if I RAID my two IDE Maxtor 80G 7200RPM drives will any increase in performance be noticed at all aside from having a file server? Also, if I upgrade the motherboard to dual channel will I notice an increase in performance? Nobody has given me a definite yes or no answer with explanation to this question; or given me a yes or no as to if the $30-50 would be worth it for such an upgrade.CBRad929 wrote:
To condense what Shortah said: Best performance noticed as a file server.
Yeah I have fast enough RAM (2x 1G Samsung PC3200 DDR 400Mhz) and that is what it's going to stay at cause I don't have the money to buy a new computer with DDR2 or whatever else the latest technology is. Even as it is I should be able to play the latest games at high settings for the next year and then have to slowing start turning things down. What I've said all along is that if $30-50 right now could possibly extend that period for another 3-6 months or so I would do it.
AMD Athlon XP 3200+ (water cooled and over clocked to 2.45)
OCZ PC3200 Platinum Edition 2x1gig Matched Pair
160 gig Maxtor (storage) & 10 gig Western Digital (OS)
ATI All-in-Wonder X800XT AGP
Audigy 2 ZS Platinum
1 Gig Intel Ethernet (running a 1 gig lan at the house)
Biostar MC9N (not sure about model number)
Antec TruePower2.0 550W
water cooling mostly runs at about 24 degrees Celsius, while the case stay at about 85 degrees fahrenheit, the case is cooled by 2x120mm fans, I have the Antec HD Temperature monitor strapped up to monitor the temperature at the bottom and the top of the case.. It works quite well and the water temperature is monitored through the water cooling system..
As you can tell I've effectively created a beast mid-grade range machine, while not going to overboard.
But to answer your question completely, right now would not be the right time to upgrade anything, especially when you only have $30-50 to spend on anything. So unless you just wanted to go spend it on some fans or something to make your case look nice (if you care about that) tahts what you could do, otherwise save your money for a lil' bit longer and than upgrade to a higher-range mobo would be my first choice.
Heffty.
Will you notice a GAMEPLAY performance increase using RAID? 95% no. Maybe slightly faster loadtimes that are disk dependent would account for the 5% yes.
Will you notice a difference on Dual Channel? If you are using the same 2GB pc3200 to a board that supports dual channel, it will be faster, but not sure if you will notice a tremendous difference.
First I think you might have problems running all of the current games on "high" settings and I dont think that it will last for 1 year as a high end gamming rig. I think you should save your $30-$50 as IMHO it wont do that much improvement on end-of-life.
In regards to tigerdircet.com I would say check out the anandtech.com forums. They dont have all that great of reviews for customer satisfaction. I'd also be a little hesitent on e-bay. Then again I also shop newegg, not the cheapest but dependable.
Will you notice a GAMEPLAY performance increase using RAID? 95% no. Maybe slightly faster loadtimes that are disk dependent would account for the 5% yes.
Will you notice a difference on Dual Channel? If you are using the same 2GB pc3200 to a board that supports dual channel, it will be faster, but not sure if you will notice a tremendous difference.
First I think you might have problems running all of the current games on "high" settings and I dont think that it will last for 1 year as a high end gamming rig. I think you should save your $30-$50 as IMHO it wont do that much improvement on end-of-life.
In regards to tigerdircet.com I would say check out the anandtech.com forums. They dont have all that great of reviews for customer satisfaction. I'd also be a little hesitent on e-bay. Then again I also shop newegg, not the cheapest but dependable.
Well let me put in my 15 cents of real world experience/comparison.
Two machines same net connect playing together same server same room etc.
Machine 1 xp3200 socket a O/C'ed to about 2330 Mhz
Machine 2 P4 EE 3.4G HT on abit board (very decent machine)
Machine 1 72G u320 SCSI on adaptec 29160 controller 15k (no raid)
Machine 2 36G sata raptor 10k - 2 drive raid-0
Machine 1 1x512mb 2-3-3-6 single channel
Machine 2 2x512mb (1024MB) dual channel 2-3-2-5
Exact same video cards and identical graphics settings, same audio settings.
When machine 1 had a 5400rpm drive in it and 512mb of memory load times were terrible compared to the 2xraid-0 in machine2.
All I did was sub the 5400rpm drive in machine 1 with a 15K scsi and it loaded faster than machine 2. Not alot faster but allways beats it into rounds.
I then upped the memory to 2g, 1x1024MB dual channel 2-3-2-5 and upped the fsb to 205Mhz
I'm almost always the first person in on a round when maps are changed with machine 1, even on 64 player servers in generally top 3 in.
Once your in the game you probably won't see much difference if you have enough memory and the machine doesn't cache to the drive etc.
As for in game play with memory, it's highly debated... I saw an improvement with 2G over 1G and 1G over 512MB.
BUT!!!!
You have to run decent video settings (you won't see much if any difference if your using all low)
You have to make sure the ram is quality timing stuff 2-3-3-6 or 2-3-2-5, ocz, patriot, corsair etc...
Use 1x1024MB 4x512mb isn't as good.
Make sure your still running the memory at 200 fsb etc.
Two machines same net connect playing together same server same room etc.
Machine 1 xp3200 socket a O/C'ed to about 2330 Mhz
Machine 2 P4 EE 3.4G HT on abit board (very decent machine)
Machine 1 72G u320 SCSI on adaptec 29160 controller 15k (no raid)
Machine 2 36G sata raptor 10k - 2 drive raid-0
Machine 1 1x512mb 2-3-3-6 single channel
Machine 2 2x512mb (1024MB) dual channel 2-3-2-5
Exact same video cards and identical graphics settings, same audio settings.
When machine 1 had a 5400rpm drive in it and 512mb of memory load times were terrible compared to the 2xraid-0 in machine2.
All I did was sub the 5400rpm drive in machine 1 with a 15K scsi and it loaded faster than machine 2. Not alot faster but allways beats it into rounds.
I then upped the memory to 2g, 1x1024MB dual channel 2-3-2-5 and upped the fsb to 205Mhz
I'm almost always the first person in on a round when maps are changed with machine 1, even on 64 player servers in generally top 3 in.
Once your in the game you probably won't see much difference if you have enough memory and the machine doesn't cache to the drive etc.
As for in game play with memory, it's highly debated... I saw an improvement with 2G over 1G and 1G over 512MB.
BUT!!!!
You have to run decent video settings (you won't see much if any difference if your using all low)
You have to make sure the ram is quality timing stuff 2-3-3-6 or 2-3-2-5, ocz, patriot, corsair etc...
Use 1x1024MB 4x512mb isn't as good.
Make sure your still running the memory at 200 fsb etc.
Last edited by vjs (2005-10-19 16:54:29)
Without quoting the previous post...
Are you trying to say the best thing I could do is get a SCSI drive? Am I to understand you RAIDed two Raptors and they still didn't outdo the SCSI?
Are you trying to say the best thing I could do is get a SCSI drive? Am I to understand you RAIDed two Raptors and they still didn't outdo the SCSI?
I have a AMD 3200+ as well.. I built the whole computer my self.Heffty wrote:
I bought a computer in June 2004 that was put together for me. Here's what came with it:
AMD XP 3200+ Processor
Biostar M7NCD Motherboard
CDRW and DVD Drive
Radeon 9200SE
2*256MB RAM
Maxtor 80G Hard Drive @7200RPM.
Since then I upgraded and got these:
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Sound Card
Another 80G Hard drive identical to the first.
ATI X800XL
2*1G RAM Sticks
This is the first computer I've ever owned and I really enjoy learning more about it. When I bought the second hard drive I started reading up on RAIDing. I then found out my motherboard doesn't support RAID. To be honest, I think the motherboard is kind of weak and I wish it had more to offer. I would like to know what you folks think is the best motherboard for the processor I have.
Secondly, if I were to go out and spend the money on this motherboard (if you have any ideas on good prices let me know), would the RAIDing make that much of a difference for my gameplay or loading times in BF2? I know that many people have the same problems as me with the 'verifying client data' and CRT so I thought maybe this RAIDing would speed that process up a little or fix some things. I also thought a new motherboard would have a better chipset and could us my processor to it's fullest and may work better for the game. Or maybe it would mean games in the future would play better too. Obviously I don't know much about what I'm talking about, I've only listened to what my computer friends have to say about my system. So I figured I'd inquire here and find out what all you BF2 folk think seeing as how many of you are similar to me in experiencing problems with BF2.
Here's a link you can find my current motherboards manual on if you're interested in helping me with my research.
http://www.biostar.com.tw/support/manua … 3?socket=a
Also, if you think there may be any other advantages to your motherboard of choice that I would not be aware of (IE somthing like RAID that I didn't know was important until it was too late) then let me know that too. Thanks.
The mother board I have is a MSI Neo K8
I love it, its an awesome mohter board, supports raid ETC. The onboard sound on it is to die for.
HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS BOARD
My rig:
X-Dreamer case (with 4 80mm red led fans)
600w Power supply with red LED's
MSI Neo k8 mobo
AMD 3200+ newcastle processor
2g of OCZ Plantium dual channel PC3200 ram with heat sinks, etc.
(2) WD Caviar 7200rpm 160gb hard drives config'd in RAID 0
GEFORCE 6800GT (not sure of brand)
This comp plays BF2 at the max settings (sound and gfx) with absolutely no problem.
Last edited by SrA_Shady (2005-10-20 00:37:06)
Here is a hardware review when the Raptors first started coming out. There is a test between it, other PATA drives and SCSI.
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=1799
Read it and make your own conclusions. There are many other reviews of it and other drives on this site. Check it out.
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=1799
Read it and make your own conclusions. There are many other reviews of it and other drives on this site. Check it out.
At the end of the day, I seriously wouldn't bother with RAID. Yes it seems like a fun idea to get your feet wet with it, but the performance difference will not really be noticeable with regard to BF2 gameplay. Seriously. What will you gain by RAIDing your kit? A tiny performance increase and and empty pocket.
Save that cash and go for something more performance related: dual channel RAM shows a good speed increase over regular RAM. You WILL notice the difference in-game (less stutter at the start of the round & faster loading times).
No offence, but ignore people who bang on about RAID being worthwhile because - and this is important - in your scenario/setup, you don't need it. As we've been told already, file servers and computationally-heavy environments would benefit.
And now, seeing as every other bugger has name-checked their flashing PSU-laden rig, here's my specs :
Athlon64 3700+ San Diego
2gb Corsair Dual Channel RAM
GeForce 7800GTX
ASUS A8N SLI
280gb SATA (1x 160gb WD, 1x 120gb Maxtor)
480w TAGAN PSU
Audigy 2
Runs BF2 on 1280x1024 with everything on full, including AA & AF. No slowdown, no stutter, and usually the first on the map. The point I'm making?
NO RAID!
I thank you.
[edit]
I'm aware you know it's not that worthwhile for BF2, I'm just making (another) point because I'm bored, at work, and have nothing better to do with my life.
Save that cash and go for something more performance related: dual channel RAM shows a good speed increase over regular RAM. You WILL notice the difference in-game (less stutter at the start of the round & faster loading times).
No offence, but ignore people who bang on about RAID being worthwhile because - and this is important - in your scenario/setup, you don't need it. As we've been told already, file servers and computationally-heavy environments would benefit.
And now, seeing as every other bugger has name-checked their flashing PSU-laden rig, here's my specs :
Athlon64 3700+ San Diego
2gb Corsair Dual Channel RAM
GeForce 7800GTX
ASUS A8N SLI
280gb SATA (1x 160gb WD, 1x 120gb Maxtor)
480w TAGAN PSU
Audigy 2
Runs BF2 on 1280x1024 with everything on full, including AA & AF. No slowdown, no stutter, and usually the first on the map. The point I'm making?
NO RAID!
I thank you.
[edit]
I'm aware you know it's not that worthwhile for BF2, I'm just making (another) point because I'm bored, at work, and have nothing better to do with my life.
Last edited by AnarkyXtra (2005-10-20 07:38:48)
Hey wait I didn't flash mine yet!!!!
What about getting a lower model Gigabyte GA7N400 with the same chipset as the Pro or Pro 2 just for the dual channel? and then maybe getting a 10K SCSI drive...used, with low GB just so I can run games off it.
Well I pretty much agree with everything said about the drives.
I priced my drive setup (the 15K scsi one) at fries the other day....
Drive 720 dollars
Cable with terminator 45 dollars
U320 Card 195 dollars
So I guess you can have slightly better load times for 1000 dollars if your interested.
Did I pay that much heck no. But after being PO'ed about crashing drives etc I went to scsi. You would be suprised how cheap you can pick up a 18G 15K scsi, and scsi card combo. I totally lucked out on the 72G, with 5-year warranty I'll take that one please.
Besides do you really need more than 18G for your O/S games and apps? Maybe, but not 36G. Store the vids download etc onto the 5400rpm 200G ata, let it take the beating and headcrash from bittorrents kazza etc.
I would never run any raid system that didn't have it's own dedicated raid controller. Doesn't non-board raid consume something like 5-10% of the CPU during read/writes???
------------------------
So yes a non-raid 15K u320 is faster than an on-board raid-0 sata raptors and takes less CPU over head. But be willing to pay. Your better off with a CPU, memory, video upgrade, unless your stuck with a 2mb cache or 5400 rpm drive.
------------------
Oh and no don't just use the scsi for games install the O/S on it as well. BF2 games etc will create temp files on the same drive as yout O/S, just easier to use the scsi for both games and O/S.
If you want to start talking ulimate setup.
Get 8 15k scsi u320 drives's
U320 with a Raid 0+1 RISC-raid controller with 256MB on-board ecc ram and dual internal channels.
Run them in a 4 drive stripe/4 drive stripe array mirrored accross the 2 independent channels. Should be able to get this done for under 2k now.
I priced my drive setup (the 15K scsi one) at fries the other day....
Drive 720 dollars
Cable with terminator 45 dollars
U320 Card 195 dollars
So I guess you can have slightly better load times for 1000 dollars if your interested.
Did I pay that much heck no. But after being PO'ed about crashing drives etc I went to scsi. You would be suprised how cheap you can pick up a 18G 15K scsi, and scsi card combo. I totally lucked out on the 72G, with 5-year warranty I'll take that one please.
Besides do you really need more than 18G for your O/S games and apps? Maybe, but not 36G. Store the vids download etc onto the 5400rpm 200G ata, let it take the beating and headcrash from bittorrents kazza etc.
I would never run any raid system that didn't have it's own dedicated raid controller. Doesn't non-board raid consume something like 5-10% of the CPU during read/writes???
------------------------
So yes a non-raid 15K u320 is faster than an on-board raid-0 sata raptors and takes less CPU over head. But be willing to pay. Your better off with a CPU, memory, video upgrade, unless your stuck with a 2mb cache or 5400 rpm drive.
------------------
Oh and no don't just use the scsi for games install the O/S on it as well. BF2 games etc will create temp files on the same drive as yout O/S, just easier to use the scsi for both games and O/S.
If you want to start talking ulimate setup.
Get 8 15k scsi u320 drives's
U320 with a Raid 0+1 RISC-raid controller with 256MB on-board ecc ram and dual internal channels.
Run them in a 4 drive stripe/4 drive stripe array mirrored accross the 2 independent channels. Should be able to get this done for under 2k now.
Last edited by vjs (2005-10-20 11:24:00)
yea those 8 drive RISC arrays are f'n discusting in read/write times .. we created one in my hyperformance network storage class... along w/ clustering and every raid arrangement you can think of..
whoa.
I would just buy additional ram honestly. You have a decent sized HDD that is at 7200rpm, I would just spend whatever you have left over on additional RAM after buying a new board. That's my $.02Heffty wrote:
What about getting a lower model Gigabyte GA7N400 with the same chipset as the Pro or Pro 2 just for the dual channel? and then maybe getting a 10K SCSI drive...used, with low GB just so I can run games off it.
I think getting the additional RAM and a board that supports dual channel would be your wisest choice for now since you say the funding for your upgrade will be limited.
Last edited by Badcomp (2005-10-20 12:02:06)
I didnt post mine yet