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2006-05-31 23:44:36
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6664|Colorado
War is hell, thats why we try not to have them because innocents get hurt.

I'd give them a week paid off to deal with the mental drama & tell them to try harder next time not to get the civ population.

Just cause its a little girl or a 76 year old man does not make them innocents, look at Vietnam & their tactics.
I trust in the soldiers trained decision making ability's.
2006-05-31 23:45:53
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6635
cops get like 2 weeks off if they fire their weapon on duty.  soldiers gotta go straight back to work like nothing happened 12 hours later when we lose one of our own.
2006-05-31 23:47:20
yerded
Bertinator
+255|6628|Westminster, California

bakarocket wrote:

yerded wrote:

bakarocket wrote:

.

Pretty easy decision for a scared shitless civvy, I'd say. Turned out it was the wrong one, but they had the odds on their side.
you cannot possibly be talking about gunslinger
I don't understand.
I mean, you must be talking about yourself as gunslinger is the genuine article. He's had his boots on the ground.
2006-05-31 23:47:59
NemeSiS-Factor
Favorite Weapon? Pistol
+29|6661|Everett, WA, US
I agree, Democracy is far superior than whatever messed up government they have in Iraq.  I just wonder what we are going to do with our military when we finish up in the Middle East.  I think Europe could use a good working over.......
2006-05-31 23:55:05
yerded
Bertinator
+255|6628|Westminster, California

NemeSiS-Factor wrote:

I agree, Democracy is far superior than whatever messed up government they have in Iraq.  I just wonder what we are going to do with our military when we finish up in the Middle East.  I think Europe could use a good working over.......
BOMB SAN FRANSICO FIRST!
2006-05-31 23:57:58
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|6759

NemeSiS-Factor wrote:

I agree, Democracy is far superior than whatever messed up government they have in Iraq.  I just wonder what we are going to do with our military when we finish up in the Middle East.  I think Europe could use a good working over.......
anywhere in particular?
2006-05-31 23:58:53
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6561|Portland, OR, USA

NemeSiS-Factor wrote:

I agree, Democracy is far superior than whatever messed up government they have in Iraq.  I just wonder what we are going to do with our military when we finish up in the Middle East.  I think Europe could use a good working over.......
well considering the oil situation.. i think we'll be in the middle east for quite some time...
2006-06-01 00:09:12
bakarocket
Member
+12|6540

yerded wrote:

bakarocket wrote:

yerded wrote:


you cannot possibly be talking about gunslinger
I don't understand.
I mean, you must be talking about yourself as gunslinger is the genuine article. He's had his boots on the ground.
Yeah I see that, but I still don't understand. I must be talking about myself about what? I said that NOT telling the US troops it is an easy decision for a scared shitless civvy to make. What were you, for no reason, trying to imply I was saying?
2006-06-01 00:17:30
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6579|United States of America
I hate that people have already convicted these marines and the investigation is not even complete.

Though it appears there might have been some wrong soing on the parts of our soldiers can we at least let the government and military deal with it the way it is supposed to deal with it.  If this turns out to be true that
crimes were commited by our soldiers then I hope they get the punishment they deserve in Top Secret Military Court.  Never release any of the info to the public.  It will only be used against all the honorable troops doing their job. None of us here need to know what happened even though Gunslinger has earned the right to know.  The liberal press in America will have a hayday bashing all the troops for the actions of a few.  It will only inflame the Islamic Fanatics around the world.

Edit-->As a US citizen in LA if gunslinger witnesses a gang member planting a bomb should he not go to the police since it is very likely that the gang may come after him?

A little off topic but, Gunslinger you said in another thread that you could not get a gun permit in california since you are not in a job or situation where you need to carry a gun.  You need to move out of cali.  Here in Indiana we you are allowed to get a permit to carry just for personal protection.  We have what the NRA call a shall issue law.  Meaning that if you haven't done anything wrong (i.e. Felony) then the state of Indiana shall issue you a permit.  I have had mine for about 8 yrs and I am only a factory worker.

Last edited by JG1567JG (2006-06-01 00:21:41)

2006-06-01 00:17:51
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6832|Cologne, Germany

TrollmeaT wrote:

War is hell, thats why we try not to have them because innocents get hurt.

I'd give them a week paid off to deal with the mental drama & tell them to try harder next time not to get the civ population.

Just cause its a little girl or a 76 year old man does not make them innocents, look at Vietnam & their tactics.
I trust in the soldiers trained decision making ability's.
you do ? Well, according to this german news site http://www.heute.de/ZDFheute/inhalt/27/ … 79,00.html the marines broke into the house next to the explosion site ( a 76-year old disabled man was living there ) and killed everyone inside, including a 4-year-old girl. Then they moved on to the next house, killing a family with 7 kids. 4 more victims in the next house and finally, a taxi driver with four of his passengers.

I am trying hard not to jump to conclusions, but does that look like a hunt for insurgents ?

Moreover, the soldiers brought the 24 dead civilians to a hospital after that and tried to cover up their actions by claiming the civilians had been killed by an explosion.

You gotta be kiddin' me...

We will see what the official investigation brings up, but I'd be quite surprised if this turns out to be anything else but a revenge action, at least when we look at what we seem to know so far.
2006-06-01 00:31:57
bakarocket
Member
+12|6540
B.Schuss, I don't think Heute should compare it to My Lai, because there aren't other witnesses.

The American courts will not take civilian witnesses seriously without a military witness as well.
2006-06-01 00:51:22
s()mtingWong
Member
+48|6684
I dont care if they kill 1000 young girls or 1000 grandpappys, i will back our troops 1000%. I have 1 uncle and 2 cousins fighting in iraq as we speak and they always tell me that "everyday that passes while on duty in iraq is a blessing from god because iraq is riddled with so many ied's, one day your alive and with a snap of a finger your dead." My uncle told me a story of one of his best friends who served with him in the first gulf war that lost his life last year from a small ied explosion that ripped the whole passenger side off the humvee killing his friend instantly and wounding the other 3 inside. Now dead how do you think his only son 12yrs old would feel growing up without a father? pritty shitty if you ask me. To all the bois fighting in iraq, kick some @ss and do what you want, just come home safe.
2006-06-01 00:53:56
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6666|Canberra, AUS

s()mtingWong wrote:

I dont care if they kill 1000 young girls or 1000 grandpappys, i will back our troops 1000%. I have 1 uncle and 2 cousins fighting in iraq as we speak and they always tell me that "everyday that passes while on duty in iraq is a blessing from god because iraq is riddled with so many ied's, one day your alive and with a snap of a finger your dead." My uncle told me a story of one of his best friends who served with him in the first gulf war that lost his life last year from a small ied explosion that ripped the whole passenger side off the humvee killing his friend instantly and wounding the other 3 inside. Now dead how do you think his only son 12yrs old would feel growing up without a father? pritty shitty if you ask me. To all the bois fighting in iraq, kick some @ss and do what you want, just come home safe.
And how would you feel if your ENTIRE family and friends and neighbours were killed by a bunch of random soldiers for absolutely no reason?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-06-01 01:04:19
s()mtingWong
Member
+48|6684

Spark wrote:

s()mtingWong wrote:

I dont care if they kill 1000 young girls or 1000 grandpappys, i will back our troops 1000%. I have 1 uncle and 2 cousins fighting in iraq as we speak and they always tell me that "everyday that passes while on duty in iraq is a blessing from god because iraq is riddled with so many ied's, one day your alive and with a snap of a finger your dead." My uncle told me a story of one of his best friends who served with him in the first gulf war that lost his life last year from a small ied explosion that ripped the whole passenger side off the humvee killing his friend instantly and wounding the other 3 inside. Now dead how do you think his only son 12yrs old would feel growing up without a father? pritty shitty if you ask me. To all the bois fighting in iraq, kick some @ss and do what you want, just come home safe.
And how would you feel if your ENTIRE family and friends and neighbours were killed by a bunch of random soldiers for absolutely no reason?
I'll let you know when it happens as for now HURRAY! for our marines.
2006-06-01 01:04:48
xXSarnathXx
Decepticons forever!
+25|6599|Sweden
when i asked what the difference was between terrorist acts and ordinary war, someone on this forum said terrorists kill civilians.

as it looks in this case, some troopers have sprayed civ's on purpose. so whats the difference between americas brave troopers and al qaida?
2006-06-01 01:13:34
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6692

xXSarnathXx wrote:

when i asked what the difference was between terrorist acts and ordinary war, someone on this forum said terrorists kill civilians.

as it looks in this case, some troopers have sprayed civ's on purpose. so whats the difference between americas brave troopers and al qaida?
The difference is one action is sanctioned, and the other is punished. If these marines really did kill a bunch of civilians on purpose, for no other reason than revenge, then they will get whats coming to them. The publicity this has received will see to that. Terrorists, on the other hand, are rewarded for their actions.
2006-06-01 01:35:48
jclawdublin
Member
+0|6532
all that has happened in the past, no one learns a lesson or perhaps you can thank the world bank on this.

this war would not have happened if the world bank had not instructed america to secure and protect business interests ie oil reserves in the far east, this is just the beginning my friends. i did'nt see anybody do anything in africa when 200,000 were killed in one day just not to long ago. no oil no war.

so being from northern ireland i understand a bit about conflict and more to the point that is what you have in iraq only much MUCH bigger. how america / uk and others are going to get out of this mess begs believe.

iran will most likely be next but may take a while to get a perseptable reason out to the sheep(US).

you believe whatever brand of bullshit you guys want and stick with it. as for soldiers who are dead and more to come the world bank could not give a shit.

i wish people would just be a bit more honest, most people (soldiers) fighting out there are just looking out for there pals trying not to get killed so they can get the fuck out of there.

i hope it gets sorted, but the odds dont look good and now the PR guys are scaping the ground for something good to keep everyone behind this, my guess is that iran will be pulled into this war to take the focus away from iraq. oh but iran your not allowed to have nuc potenial. but we could wipe you out in a sec what a load of shit.shit shit shitie shit.   if the world bank got there way they would nuc the whole region and start over again and looking at how long it will take to sort this out it could take just as long


heres hoping as a human you all sleep save in you bed save with the thought that there is people in this world who are intent on fucking it up for everyone.


ta very much
2006-06-01 01:39:57
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6681|Tampa Bay Florida

yerded wrote:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4333/marlboro1tj.jpg
http://apnews.myway.com//article/200606 … 5IS02.html

I support our troops and I'm not sorry about it.

My heart breaks when I hear of deaths in Iraq whether or not they are American or not is beside the point; these are human tragedies. Yes, because I'm an American I am biased, but I speak now of combat troops in general;

     I give our GI's the unquestioning benefit of the doubt. These men face mortal danger everyday and normal rules and laws do not and should not apply. I thank all members of the military that are serving in Iraq and elsewhere for their service,  and from all our allied countries.

    Many so called civilian deaths are counted in Iraq. Many of these so called civilians were sporting an RPG or digging in a I.E.D when they were killed and I say FUCK EM! We are trying to bring a better life to these people and it will be a long hard bloody road, and many innocents will die. Ask a former Iraqi citizen how he/she feels about what we are doing before you pass judgment on these brave men involved in this nightmare.

     DO NOT listen to the likes of cowardly, treacherous maggots like John Murtha who constantly seek the muck to rake over our boys; if he was a good congressmen he would be seeing to it that there was no interference in the investigation. Instead that bloated piece of shit goes on the airways accusing our boys of murder. FUCK HIM AND ALL THOSE IN AMERICA WHO BETRAY OUR BOYS.

    Because we hold our own to a higher standard there will be a proper investigation and those deemed guilty by a court of law will be punished. Don't lose faith in the mission of freedom for these people; what? did we pick who could run in their elections?! NO! we allowed them to elect from their own and THAT IS A GOD DAMNED NOBLE CAUSE WORTH FIGHTING FOR.

    Those people most like died because "insurgence" ran into the house they were in. Case closed in my mind.
That's why NUTCASES like you shouldn't be in charge of OCCUPYING a country full of CIVILIANS.  We need ANTI-TERRORIST units, people, not NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS.

I would LOVE to see the Army and Marine Corps occupying YOUR city and treating YOU the same way, yerded.  SUCK IT.

We need people who KNOW how to fight TERRORISM.  A DUUUUHRRR?!!?! It's the WAR against TERRORISM!

Of COURSE I support the troops.  Who doesn't?  Honestly?  Can you find ONE American saying "Yeah, they DESERVED it!" I doubt it.  I think they're the wrong troops for the situation which were meant for a war which was over 3 years ago.  Bring em home.  Now.

Yerded, I think you're a fucking NUT.  You don't CARE about civilian deaths?  Are you insane?  Yeah, who cares, 20 thousand, 30 thousand, 100 thousand.  I don't care because I'm American and I believe in my troops and they're the ones fighting so Iraq can have elections and still be fucked up, because it's always been fucked up, THEY WEREN'T EVEN A COUNTRY until the British INVADED and turned it into a fucking COLONY. 

It's people like you that make me wonder WTF America has turned into.  LISTEN to yourself!  You're insane.

Look, I'm not calling them murderers.  I'm sure they reacted the same as anyone in their shoes would.  That's why we've got to get the fuck out of Iraq.  Do you GET IT?

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-06-01 02:05:56)

2006-06-01 02:47:05
ShreksEsel
Member
+0|6664

jclawdublin wrote:

i wish people would just be a bit more honest, most people (soldiers) fighting out there are just looking out for there pals trying not to get killed so they can get the fuck out of there.
True! Soldiers fight to keep their pals and themselves alive. But what else are they fighting for? The liberation of Iraq? Probably not, since the "mission is accomplished"! I think, most of the soldiers just don't know, what they are fighting for. Not because they are not interested in why they risk their lives, but because they are not told the truth. Just like the non-fighting public. Media lies and tries to keep the morale high. Sometimes, it seems like a brainwash.


sxXSarnathXx wrote:

when i asked what the difference was between terrorist acts and ordinary war, someone on this forum said terrorists kill civilians.
Someone once said "terrorism is the war of the poor".


Spearhead wrote:

Of COURSE I support the troops.  Who doesn't?  Honestly?  Can you find ONE American saying "Yeah, they DESERVED it!" I doubt it.  I think they're the wrong troops for the situation which were meant for a war which was over 3 years ago.  Bring em home.  Now.

Yerded, I think you're a fucking NUT.  You don't CARE about civilian deaths?  Are you insane?  Yeah, who cares, 20 thousand, 30 thousand, 100 thousand.  I don't care because I'm American and I believe in my troops and they're the ones fighting so Iraq can have elections and still be fucked up, because it's always been fucked up, THEY WEREN'T EVEN A COUNTRY until the British INVADED and turned it into a fucking COLONY. 

It's people like you that make me wonder WTF America has turned into.  LISTEN to yourself!  You're insane.
Thank god, there are not only brainwashed people out there...

How can someone be so arrogant and put himself or his nationality over someone elses? Just because americans are americans doesn't make them better individuals. And as christians, wich most of you might be, answer me just one question: "How do you judge the worth of a human life?".
2006-06-01 04:23:39
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6832|Cologne, Germany

Skruples wrote:

xXSarnathXx wrote:

when i asked what the difference was between terrorist acts and ordinary war, someone on this forum said terrorists kill civilians.

as it looks in this case, some troopers have sprayed civ's on purpose. so whats the difference between americas brave troopers and al qaida?
The difference is one action is sanctioned, and the other is punished. If these marines really did kill a bunch of civilians on purpose, for no other reason than revenge, then they will get whats coming to them. The publicity this has received will see to that. Terrorists, on the other hand, are rewarded for their actions.
I agree. I wonder though, since this happened six months ago, if the truth would have ever been revealed without the media attention the war in Iraq has. If it is true that the marines tried to cover this up and even the President didn't know about it until some Time reporter told him last week, I wonder if there would be an official investigation now, without the media following up their stories.

Obviously, the internal control mechanisms failed here, don't you think ?

I wonder what the commanding officer of the marines in question has to say about this. Did he know ? Or was it kept a secret on platoon / company level ?
2006-06-01 04:25:58
Jepeto87
Member
+38|6676|Dublin
Id be much more sympathetic if the Marines turned around and said "Look we were searching for insurgents, and a number of civilians were killed. We're very sorry" but instead they claimed the civilians where killed by an insurgent bomb, I believe this "incident" happened months ago!. Thats a bit suspicious IMO.

I'm a mere reservist in the Irish Army and have never been under fire, but from the urban fighting exercises I have done, I have some idea of just how hard it could be to avoid killing civilians while engaged in urban operations. We're told to fire constantly at everything the minute we're in the door and we've all ready thrown in "grenades". I find it amazing how so many US troops can kick a door down and not start firing in such a hostile environment, its amazing and a sign of there professionalism.

Those soldiers could genuinely have made a mistake (though so many dead in one incident is again suspicious) but they deserve to be punished for covering up the incident! But maybe we cant judge these men, as G.Orwell put it:

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf

Cheers!

Last edited by Jepeto87 (2006-06-01 04:27:13)

2006-06-01 04:29:58
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6533|Outer Space

B.Schuss wrote:

I agree. I wonder though, since this happened six months ago, if the truth would have ever been revealed without the media attention the war in Iraq has. If it is true that the marines tried to cover this up and even the President didn't know about it until some Time reporter told him last week, I wonder if there would be an official investigation now, without the media following up their stories.

Obviously, the internal control mechanisms failed here, don't you think ?

I wonder what the commanding officer of the marines in question has to say about this. Did he know ? Or was it kept a secret on platoon / company level ?
I don't know if this is true, so if anyone can confirm it or deny it, I would appreciate it.

I heard that when it was first reported, no one noticed it, or cared. It was only when senator Murtha brought it up, they started investigating it. Is this true?
2006-06-01 05:09:49
JahManRed
wank
+646|6619|IRELAND

Ok I can understand a marine standing beside a friend who gets killed and in a rash decision lashs out and shots someone who he SUSPECTS killed his friend. But to go house to house killing whole families is unforgivable. It takes time and can't be judged as a spur of the moment decision under strain.  Im from Northern Ireland and from experience this kind of action breeds terrorists. You can bet that any members of those families and neighbors still alive will be out with an AK looking for revenge as soon as they can. Then they are crazed religious towel heads who want to die for the 200 virgins bla bla bla. If my family and neighbors were wiped out, I can only imagine the rage and hate that would fill me and I can imagine myself quite willing to give up my life to avenge them.
At the end of the day the people responsible are the ppl who put those marines in that situation in the first place on a pack of lies. Its Bush and Rummy who should be in a military court for this.
2006-06-01 05:11:47
xXSarnathXx
Decepticons forever!
+25|6599|Sweden

s()mtingWong wrote:

I dont care if they kill 1000 young girls or 1000 grandpappys, i will back our troops 1000%. I have 1 uncle and 2 cousins fighting in iraq as we speak and they always tell me that "everyday that passes while on duty in iraq is a blessing from god because iraq is riddled with so many ied's, one day your alive and with a snap of a finger your dead." My uncle told me a story of one of his best friends who served with him in the first gulf war that lost his life last year from a small ied explosion that ripped the whole passenger side off the humvee killing his friend instantly and wounding the other 3 inside. Now dead how do you think his only son 12yrs old would feel growing up without a father? pritty shitty if you ask me. To all the bois fighting in iraq, kick some @ss and do what you want, just come home safe.
u dont value a humans life that much do you? u serious when u say u dont care if 1000 kids get shot?

i think it wud have been fair if u and ur uncle's long gone friend could have switched places in that car

Last edited by xXSarnathXx (2006-06-01 05:13:19)

2006-06-01 05:43:54
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6552
If you play shoot first and ask questions later, this is what happens.  Based on what is known, specifically the fact that the claims the civilians weren't caught in crossfire come from within the military, and the fact that I find it hard to believe they shot enough bullets to kill 24 people and not one of them was an insurgent, there is little doubt in my mind that they killed people they knew were civilians.  And nothing excuses that.

Having said that, there is little doubt in my mind that higher ups in the military could have taken more action to prevent such incidents, and nothing excuses that.  Of course, I have little faith in the military to arrange justice.  It'll be another My Lai, they'll charge a few people, wait for the shitstorm to die down, and acquit them.  God bless America .

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