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2006-05-30 15:04:57
SiMSaM16
Member
+48|6966|United States of America
When hijackers hijack planes, crash one into a building killing over 3,000 people, crash one into the Pentagon and attempt to take out the White House.

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

P.S. Please keep Iraq out of this. I want it to be more philosophical. I'm sick of hearing people bitch about that war.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
2006-05-30 15:12:02
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

Bubbalo wrote:

If a foreign country poses a clear and present danger to a nation and/or it's allies, when said nations have posed no threat to the foreign country, then war is justified

OR

If the UN Security Council approves.  This second one is why we need to reform the UN.
Aggreeded. Well,,,,,,,more like the entire UN needs to be reformed or just gotten rid of because right now all it seems to do is cause problems and NOT help. They are to concerned with being nice and peaceful and innocent civilians and soldiers trying to protect them WITHOUT force die because of it.
2006-05-30 15:12:10
specops10-4
Member
+108|7016|In the hills

CameronPoe wrote:

specops10-4 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It is acceptable to declare war on a sovereign nation when that nation has declared war on your nation or is occupying your nation. It is also acceptable if your nation has been agressed against by a conventional army.

It is not acceptable to declare war on a nation to root out guerrilla soldiers that have no connection to the government of a particular country but might reside in or have come from that country.
LOL, you are just trying to say Bush had NO reason at all to attack, what if the guerrilla soldiers are suppressing the nation and they have a large force that is comparable to a conventional army?

Please I do not want another one of these battle, but you cannot attack a certain person, no matter how vaguely.
To attack who? I suppose I should rephrase. If the country is already a failed state with a completely ineffective government, such as Colombia, then you could provide military aid to that government to get things under control. Bypassing the goovernment by intervening militarily yourself would not be respecting the sovereignty of that nation.
Look at what happened to us (USA) when we aided Osama, we got attacked by our own weapons.  Most of the time the morals of a country will decide when there should be war, but past experiences should not be forgotten
2006-05-30 15:13:40
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

Spearhead wrote:

Only if human rights abuses are in the extremes, is what most of you mean to say.  Is having someone live in a 12 by 9 cell for 20 years human rights abuse?  I think so.  That's the standard for Floridas death row.

Practically every country abuse human rights in extremely minor ways.  But it's the big abusers like Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, USSR, etc. that it is justifiable for, I think.
You kinda forgot China, Vietnam still, North Korea, bunch of African countries, and a few Middle Eastern Countries.
2006-05-30 15:15:12
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Y0URDAD wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Only if human rights abuses are in the extremes, is what most of you mean to say.  Is having someone live in a 12 by 9 cell for 20 years human rights abuse?  I think so.  That's the standard for Floridas death row.
Yeah, what have all the convicted felons on death row done to deserve their rights taken away?

[R3n wrote:

izzy]war is justified when
A: some one's got a big gun to you're head ( not literally of course )
B: some one's got a gun to an allied country
C: when an other country is performing genocide
and in my opinion that's it, all else is just greed and religion
I submit that Saddam Hussein's actions fall under your justifications "B" and "C".
I assume that the allied country of which you speak is Israel. Most Europeans do not regard Israel as an ally but as a human rights abuser themselves who continually contravene international law (much like Saddam Hussein did).
Of course it was Europeans who created Isreal.......
2006-05-30 15:16:33
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

CameronPoe wrote:

Vilham wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I assume that the allied country of which you speak is Israel. Most Europeans do not regard Israel as an ally but as a human rights abuser themselves who continually contravene international law (much like Saddam Hussein did).
im a euro and i dont feel that. What pisses me off about that is the stupidity of it, the palestinians just keep fucking themselves by attacking israel when peace talks are going on.
Fair enough. I would have to disagree however. Israel takes their farms, bulldozes their houses in collective punishment exercises, interns people, builds walls around Palestinians separating them from services and relatives, makes long distance travel impossible for Palestinians, builds settlements on stolen land, discriminates against their own ethnic minority of arabs, won't allow them to have ports, airports or borders which are in the control of palestinians, won't concede that East Jerusalem is part of Palestine, won't allow the 2m or so Palestinians they drove out of their homes in 1948 to return to their homes. If that were done to me I'd be bloody sure not to sit there and take it like a bitch. The Israelis have never been seriously committed to lasting peace anyway, nor one could argue have the Palestinians I must concede.
That might be because the Israelis have gotten tired of bombs going off.
2006-05-30 15:19:33
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

Horseman 77 wrote:

I think war is often justified, I just wonder if we always try to aviod them with every resource we have available. The USSR did all kinds of f*ck'd up and evil sh*t.
We never bombed them becuase they had a good Air defence System.

When they don't we like to Bomb.
More like we didn't want Europe to get turned into glass. Anyways with the very good ARM we have we could cut there air defense in half back then and then go in low with the AWACS aircraft guiding us. And dint forget that the F117 and the B2 can not be locked onto with heat seeking missiles because of the dispersal of the exaust.
2006-05-30 15:20:35
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6834

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

whoever -karma me calling me redneck is one stupid racist peice of shit. 

so i guess every soldier fighting in the war is a nazi, is that what your saying BN.  Because as a former soldier, i had no choice on whether or not to goto iraq you dumbfuck.  But regardless,  as a soldier, my job was to fight in war, a job that I chose. 

im not white asshole
No, his point was that by your logic Hitler was justified in declaring WWII.

Capt. Foley wrote:

Aggreeded. Well,,,,,,,more like the entire UN needs to be reformed or just gotten rid of because right now all it seems to do is cause problems and NOT help. They are to concerned with being nice and peaceful and innocent civilians and soldiers trying to protect them WITHOUT force die because of it.
Except that in most cases they have to avoid firing shots to remain nuetral, though there are some exceptions (e.g. the AU soldiers in Sudan under the UN banner have the ability to shoot to protect civilian atm, IIRC).  The problem is more that they don't go in anywhere near often enough because the Security Council never lets anything through: with 5 vetoes, someones always against it.  Not only that, but western countries hold an unfair amount of power.

Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-05-30 15:23:13)

2006-05-30 15:21:16
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

CameronPoe wrote:

specops10-4 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It is acceptable to declare war on a sovereign nation when that nation has declared war on your nation or is occupying your nation. It is also acceptable if your nation has been agressed against by a conventional army.

It is not acceptable to declare war on a nation to root out guerrilla soldiers that have no connection to the government of a particular country but might reside in or have come from that country.
LOL, you are just trying to say Bush had NO reason at all to attack, what if the guerrilla soldiers are suppressing the nation and they have a large force that is comparable to a conventional army?

Please I do not want another one of these battle, but you cannot attack a certain person, no matter how vaguely.
To attack who? I suppose I should rephrase. If the country is already a failed state with a completely ineffective government, such as Colombia, then you could provide military aid to that government to get things under control. Bypassing the goovernment by intervening militarily yourself would not be respecting the sovereignty of that nation.
Look, by the time all the diplomatic shit is done we have lost our chance and it isnt worth it, its not like there gonna sit around with there thumbs up there asses wondering when the US is gonna do something.
2006-05-30 15:24:37
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

atlvolunteer wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

splixx wrote:


Bingo
whoever -karma me calling me redneck is one stupid racist peice of shit. 

so i guess every soldier fighting in the war is a nazi, is that what your saying BN.  Because as a former soldier, i had no choice on whether or not to goto iraq you dumbfuck.  But regardless,  as a soldier, my job was to fight in war, a job that I chose. 

im not white asshole
LOL Introducing the first chicano redneck!
Whats wrong with rednecks or w/e. By calling people rednexts you are being a rasict peice of shit.
2006-05-30 15:24:51
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6834

specops10-4 wrote:

Look at what happened to us (USA) when we aided Osama, we got attacked by our own weapons.  Most of the time the morals of a country will decide when there should be war, but past experiences should not be forgotten
In that case you didn't aid a government, but a terrorist organisation.  Not only that, but working with the government doesn't necessarily mean giving them weapons.  You could just wait for permission before sending troops in.

Capt. Foley wrote:

That might be because the Israelis have gotten tired of bombs going off.
Yeah, 'cos it's not like they started it or anything

The events referred to began before Israel was created, and continued afterwards.

Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-05-30 15:26:29)

2006-05-30 15:27:45
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

Bubbalo wrote:

specops10-4 wrote:

Look at what happened to us (USA) when we aided Osama, we got attacked by our own weapons.  Most of the time the morals of a country will decide when there should be war, but past experiences should not be forgotten
In that case you didn't aid a government, but a terrorist organisation.  Not only that, but working with the government doesn't necessarily mean giving them weapons.  You could just wait for permission before sending troops in.
But back in the Cold War we couldn't exactly send troops in to to battle the Russians. We had to get other people to do the fighting for themselves and support the through covert ways. In my opinion it make sense because you don't have to worry about all of the diplomatic bull shit or fear causing nuclear holocaust
2006-05-30 15:33:46
GATOR591957
Member
+84|6900
Look folks, I'm tired of being the world's police department.  I'm from the US and quite frankly we have enough problems of our own to take care of, let alone the rest of the world.  I believe at this point in time if we are asked by a legitimate government for help, it should come up for a popular vote, by, yes the citizens that are going to foot the bill.  I believe at this time our government has proven it is inadequate to provide accurate information for an invasion of anyone's soil.  In the age of the Internet certainly there is adequate access to allow for this in a speedy manner.  Schools, libraries etc. all have Internet access.  Until there comes a time when our economy is on firm footing we need to fix ourselves before trying to liberate anyone else..

Last edited by GATOR591957 (2006-05-30 15:36:07)

2006-05-30 15:51:53
Capt. Foley
Member
+155|6861|Allentown, PA, USA

Bubbalo wrote:

specops10-4 wrote:

Look at what happened to us (USA) when we aided Osama, we got attacked by our own weapons.  Most of the time the morals of a country will decide when there should be war, but past experiences should not be forgotten
In that case you didn't aid a government, but a terrorist organisation.  Not only that, but working with the government doesn't necessarily mean giving them weapons.  You could just wait for permission before sending troops in.

Capt. Foley wrote:

That might be because the Israelis have gotten tired of bombs going off.
Yeah, 'cos it's not like they started it or anything

The events referred to began before Israel was created, and continued afterwards.
They didnt start anything, both wars they fought in THEY were attacked.
2006-05-30 15:59:38
specops10-4
Member
+108|7016|In the hills

Bubbalo wrote:

specops10-4 wrote:

Look at what happened to us (USA) when we aided Osama, we got attacked by our own weapons.  Most of the time the morals of a country will decide when there should be war, but past experiences should not be forgotten
In that case you didn't aid a government, but a terrorist organisation.  Not only that, but working with the government doesn't necessarily mean giving them weapons.  You could just wait for permission before sending troops in.
We do not know if the organization we aid will become a good one or a corrupt one, if we actually get involved into the war we can guide the actions of the new goverment.  Also, if the organizaion missuse or abuse their new technologies we might get into more trouble than getting in there and having control, why take the chance that this will happen again.
2006-05-30 16:15:43
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6828

Capt. Foley wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

specops10-4 wrote:

Look at what happened to us (USA) when we aided Osama, we got attacked by our own weapons.  Most of the time the morals of a country will decide when there should be war, but past experiences should not be forgotten
In that case you didn't aid a government, but a terrorist organisation.  Not only that, but working with the government doesn't necessarily mean giving them weapons.  You could just wait for permission before sending troops in.

Capt. Foley wrote:

That might be because the Israelis have gotten tired of bombs going off.
Yeah, 'cos it's not like they started it or anything

The events referred to began before Israel was created, and continued afterwards.
They didnt start anything, both wars they fought in THEY were attacked.
I think you'll find Capt. Foley that when the British decided to pull out of Palestine in 1948 they did so in the face of increasing hostility between both arab and jewish 'terrorist' factions. It did not start as a conventional war. You mentions only two wars - the 6 day war and the Egyptian attack on Israel in the 70s, you are forgetting the original war of 'independence' in which, with superiour arms, the Israelis drove millions of people out of their homes, taking there land, and leaving them to become perpetual refugees in neighbouring countries.

Europe is more than partly to blame for the creation of Israel that is true. The Arabs should not be paying the price for that.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-05-30 16:40:29)

2006-05-30 18:29:25
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7041

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

splixx wrote:

BN wrote:


Hitler said it was time to go.
Bingo
whoever -karma me calling me redneck is one stupid racist peice of shit. 

so i guess every soldier fighting in the war is a nazi, is that what your saying BN.  Because as a former soldier, i had no choice on whether or not to goto iraq you dumbfuck.  But regardless,  as a soldier, my job was to fight in war, a job that I chose. 

im not white asshole
You are a classic. People always get abusive and start calling people names when they have no argument.

In response to you “whenever the commander in chief says” I was making a point that Hitler was a commander in chief and everyone went off to war without questioning the motives or whether it was legal.

If you want to be a drone and accept everything your president says as fact, go right ahead.

I am too smart for that.
2006-05-30 18:31:06
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6917

BN wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

splixx wrote:


Bingo
whoever -karma me calling me redneck is one stupid racist peice of shit. 

so i guess every soldier fighting in the war is a nazi, is that what your saying BN.  Because as a former soldier, i had no choice on whether or not to goto iraq you dumbfuck.  But regardless,  as a soldier, my job was to fight in war, a job that I chose. 

im not white asshole
You are a classic. People always get abusive and start calling people names when they have no argument.

In response to you “whenever the commander in chief says” I was making a point that Hitler was a commander in chief and everyone went off to war without questioning the motives or whether it was legal.

If you want to be a drone and accept everything your president says as fact, go right ahead.

I am too smart for that.
so then you ARE equating the men and women who serve in our armed forces the same as nazis?
2006-05-30 18:49:05
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7041

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

BN wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:


whoever -karma me calling me redneck is one stupid racist peice of shit. 

so i guess every soldier fighting in the war is a nazi, is that what your saying BN.  Because as a former soldier, i had no choice on whether or not to goto iraq you dumbfuck.  But regardless,  as a soldier, my job was to fight in war, a job that I chose. 

im not white asshole
You are a classic. People always get abusive and start calling people names when they have no argument.

In response to you “whenever the commander in chief says” I was making a point that Hitler was a commander in chief and everyone went off to war without questioning the motives or whether it was legal.

If you want to be a drone and accept everything your president says as fact, go right ahead.

I am too smart for that.
so then you ARE equating the men and women who serve in our armed forces the same as nazis?
No, I am not.
2006-05-30 19:02:35
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6924|USA
I know war is justified when all of the anti-american people in the world start screaming and crying for us to help them against their own oppressive governments or to repel some invasion of their land.

Last edited by lowing (2006-05-30 19:03:11)

2006-05-30 19:10:11
[DETX] arabeater
Member
+6|6884|OKC, Oklahoma USA Baby!

<{SoE}>Agamemnar wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

When the Commander-in-Chief says its time to go.  no questions asked
You're joking right...

If you are in the military, I can understand that is your job to follow orders blindly. You made that choice when you joined it...

But for god sakes man don't be a fucking drone.
Apparently your not in the military are you? When the prez says your going, you pack your shit, say bye to your family and go no questions asked! Even if you dont agree with it, its your job. Shut the fuck upi and do what your told.
2006-05-30 19:27:43
The_Mob_Returns
Member
+72|6995|Indianapolis, IN
Back to the argument between Gunslinger and BN:
If you are in the military you must do what your commander in chief says to do.  You may not agree with it but that is the risk you ran when you joined.  If you decide that the commander in chief is going against the law there is not much you can do to stop him.  If you leave the military you risk getting in trouble for deserting.  Thus when you join the military you agree to do what the commander in chief tells you to do, no matter how you feel about it.  (this is referring to the United States military, because joining is voluntary)

The same idea can be said about Nazi Germany even though they more or less were 'drafted'.  I am sure some of the soldiers were in the military to fight for their homeland.  Now Hitler was an amazing speaker and justified the war to his troops.  Those soldiers fought for their homeland because they were told to, it may not have been right but they did it because they were told to.  (good book to read: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich -  A History of Nazi Germany)

Well there is my two cents worth.

Edit: (arabeator beat me to it in less words)

Last edited by The_Mob_Returns (2006-05-30 19:28:49)

2006-05-30 20:08:55
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6988|US
(Sorry Spark. I'll be honest, I did not read your link before posting.)

BN, thanks for calling all military personnel stupid drones.  (refrains from expletives) 
In the future, please consider not making sweeping and arrogant generalizations.
2006-05-30 20:09:12
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7041

[DETX] arabeater wrote:

<{SoE}>Agamemnar wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

When the Commander-in-Chief says its time to go.  no questions asked
You're joking right...

If you are in the military, I can understand that is your job to follow orders blindly. You made that choice when you joined it...

But for god sakes man don't be a fucking drone.
Apparently your not in the military are you? When the prez says your going, you pack your shit, say bye to your family and go no questions asked! Even if you dont agree with it, its your job. Shut the fuck upi and do what your told.
What if you deem you are to do is illegal or immoral? This is not a specific question and does not relate to any current, past or future conflict.
2006-05-30 20:12:37
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6963|Tampa Bay Florida

Capt. Foley wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Only if human rights abuses are in the extremes, is what most of you mean to say.  Is having someone live in a 12 by 9 cell for 20 years human rights abuse?  I think so.  That's the standard for Floridas death row.

Practically every country abuse human rights in extremely minor ways.  But it's the big abusers like Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, USSR, etc. that it is justifiable for, I think.
You kinda forgot China, Vietnam still, North Korea, bunch of African countries, and a few Middle Eastern Countries.
Do you know what etc. means?  I was stating a few for an example.  Imagine that.  Since you're making a complete list, you kinda forgot Cuba and other South American countries.  DOH!

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-05-30 20:16:17)

 

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