Thank you.<{SoE}>Agamemnar wrote:
Hippies deserve beatings.
The nazi thing was a little over the top, but I've been on the receiving end of that kind of protest. Cops in SF indiscriminantly arrested a bunch of people that they blocked on the street, me included. They gave no dispersal order, and we followed their directions if they gave them. It was a peaceful protest, but they blocked us all and surrounded us, and just arrested us and gave us all false citations. We were held in detention for 10 hours while they processed everyone and made up excuses for our arrests. I evidently disobeyed a police order (none were given) and was disrupting traffic by walking in the street (I walked on the sidewalk the whole time, and didn't jaywalk). My case was instantly dismissed, and several police officers and commanding officers were sued because of it. They had ended up arresting a few lawyers and emergency room doctors that happened to be on the same street as the peaceful protest.
I guess my point is that it'd be pretty easy for someone to make a video like this speaking out against the anti-protest actions, especially when they've experienced it all first hand.
I guess my point is that it'd be pretty easy for someone to make a video like this speaking out against the anti-protest actions, especially when they've experienced it all first hand.
no.2 rule of using a firearm.Cougar wrote:
Thank you.<{SoE}>Agamemnar wrote:
Hippies deserve beatings.
"point ur gun at a safe direction, such as a hippie or a commie."
emo's also deserve a beating. so what if the US government is collecting info about u, they dont give a fuck what u do unless ur a criminal.
Something like this happened in Dublin not so long ago. The cops were caught on camera beating the shit out of peaceful protesters. There was a national out cry with the Robocops (media term) were sacked. It really highlights the difference between the right and the left in the usa. Your fellow citizens getting beat of a street that they own, yes you ppl own the country not Dubya and his cronies and because some of them have beards, they are hippies and deserve to be attacked by the ppl who are supposed to be protecting them. Open you eyes. Liberty & democracy are supposed to be at the heart of the american constitution.dosent look like it to me.
I do think the comparison to nazi's is abit over the top.
I do think the comparison to nazi's is abit over the top.
Why does everyone call us a democracy? really we arnt. we are a federal republic, and yes dee dee dee's there is a difference.CommieChipmunk wrote:
ha "democracy" here in america there is no democracy. Think about it, we have a president who is "elected by the people" (an electoral college that was put im place because the masses are uneducated). The whole president/congress/senate/house thing doesnt really work either. It's just a dicatorship controlled by the elite, a plutocracy if you will. Its dumb that we're out there "spreading democracy" when we dont even know what democracy is
Another thank you, Im not and extreme rightest light Couger here seems(Anger Management???) but that video was bs. If the media was like this durning WWII we would of lost it because of them.Cougar wrote:
Thank you.<{SoE}>Agamemnar wrote:
Hippies deserve beatings.
My opinion, the guy shouldnt be fucking holding a sign out in the middle of traffic, he was like shoving it in the cops face when he was driving by, like the all the cops are Bush's pawns?.. what the fuck is this?.... I know a man that is a Lt. Colonel in the REAL FUCKING ARMY, He loves war, but he doesnt back up bush for why we are in Iraq, so Police man or Military personel are not bush's little "pawns"
Last edited by (EUS)Gen.BadSnipaDay (2006-05-22 17:19:08)
so your friend loves death and destruction
I am gonna get 10 posts just so I can -1 karma you. You hippie bee-yatch.
I just asked a question and clearly you didn't like it or understand it. if that was a correct picture of your democracy (not counting the women that sounds like she is stoned just press mute).
BUT clearly it was a to difficult question for your brain to understand, furthermore you don't even seem to question the police picking out and filming individuals for no apparent reason.
BUT clearly it was a to difficult question for your brain to understand, furthermore you don't even seem to question the police picking out and filming individuals for no apparent reason.
Last edited by herrr_smity (2006-05-22 17:53:34)
Police "state" my ass. People blockade a building, that is disrupting a presidential event. They are asked to leave, they don't, they are removed. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy to someone who has no respect for the government that treats them so well. If you do not like it here, then please either stay away from the United States or leave and seek citizenship in another country. I think you will find that there are few countries with better rights than the US. I'm far too lazy and exhausted from dealing with the hundreds of people who protest and talk about the government with no real knowledge of what goes on to be able to truly expend enough energy to put things like this down anymore. It is ignorant and it is foolish. Perhaps if you do not appreciate all that the US does for its citizens or the world, then stay away from it, it does NOT concern you. If you are a citizen who hates your country, leave. Perhaps seek asylum and citizenship in China, see if it is better there. It frankly disgusts me how so many people complain and insult their country but, even if they have knowledge of events, they cannot come to any conclusion other than "I HATE LAW". Alright, then please, go to an anarchist country.
Last edited by TheMurf (2006-05-22 17:54:56)
Try living i the UK where it has been said(by parliment) that being English is against the law. England has lost its identity, They have a parliment, But Not one single part of it represents The English. Weird eah?
I am really tired of all the sweeping generalizations being made by both sides. I think we can all agree that the video was the filmakers version of incidents. I am sure that there is footage of the same event that was cut because it would show more provocation from the crowd than we have been led to believe.
Those cops were just doing their jobs, I sincerely doubt that they enjoyed that at all. I am all for Freedom of speech but what is severely lacking in political discourse these day is common civility. I sincerely doubt that you would find the stalwarts of civil disobedience (Martin Luther Kinf, Ghandi, etc.) standing at a police barricade yelling "Fuck You" at the police.
Political Dissent is a time honored American tradition, but we need to approach it with common sense and not with hostile attitudes on either side.
Herr_Smitty, the answer to your question is No. This video does not present a correct picture of "Democracy" in America. We aren't truly a Democracy but, as has been stated, a Representative Republic. We can debate the fine points of each at some other time.
Those cops were just doing their jobs, I sincerely doubt that they enjoyed that at all. I am all for Freedom of speech but what is severely lacking in political discourse these day is common civility. I sincerely doubt that you would find the stalwarts of civil disobedience (Martin Luther Kinf, Ghandi, etc.) standing at a police barricade yelling "Fuck You" at the police.
Political Dissent is a time honored American tradition, but we need to approach it with common sense and not with hostile attitudes on either side.
Herr_Smitty, the answer to your question is No. This video does not present a correct picture of "Democracy" in America. We aren't truly a Democracy but, as has been stated, a Representative Republic. We can debate the fine points of each at some other time.
Not the first or the last time...............................................
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/utah_rave_videos.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/utah_rave_videos.html
And the real truth is, if you invest massive amounts of cash into organising a legal but alternative event like that, and the police storm it and trash it, are you going to try again? I hope so, but I doubt the ticket sales would go so well.JahManRed wrote:
Not the first or the last time...............................................
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/utah_rave_videos.html
Oh, and can we put this in the debate section?
I won't make a generalisation - I’ll make a couple of points. First, I think that showing opposition to any government, in a peaceful manner and expressing your unhappiness with certain policies is perfectly valid. Second, I don’t think it is right for the police to survey protesters in this way (however, I don’t know the specifics of this demonstration and maybe the crowd contained certain elements which the police believed to be a threat to the peaceful nature of the protest). Saying that, to be bothered by the Police doing such things is a little naïve as it is more than likely that government security agencies have infiltrated many protest groups and have extremely detailed information on some members .
As a final point I think the women in the video must be rather low on intelligence. Polarising debates and taking radical view points is, of course, valid but gives your opponents a great deal of ammunition to use against you. I think there are indeed legitimate concerns regarding the power of governments and their right to invade your privacy but comparing largely democratic nation states to Nazi Germany is exceptionally unproductive.
As a final point I think the women in the video must be rather low on intelligence. Polarising debates and taking radical view points is, of course, valid but gives your opponents a great deal of ammunition to use against you. I think there are indeed legitimate concerns regarding the power of governments and their right to invade your privacy but comparing largely democratic nation states to Nazi Germany is exceptionally unproductive.
Hitler was elected to be the leader of Nazi Germany, which was a democracy until he got enough power to rig the elections, so why isn't learning to recognise certain signs ahead of time productive? Why wait until some crazy rightwinger commits an act of terrorism and uses it to get emergency powers to make the transition into dictatorship within a couple of months?Viper38 wrote:
I think there are indeed legitimate concerns regarding the power of governments and their right to invade your privacy but comparing largely democratic nation states to Nazi Germany is exceptionally unproductive.
I think that a comment about Nazi Germany which claims that it 'was a democracy until he [Hitler] got enough power to rig the elections' is certainly wide of the mark.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
Hitler was elected to be the leader of Nazi Germany, which was a democracy until he got enough power to rig the elections, so why isn't learning to recognise certain signs ahead of time productive? Why wait until some crazy rightwinger commits an act of terrorism and uses it to get emergency powers to make the transition into dictatorship within a couple of months?
I would refer you to:
I. Kershaw, The Nazi Dictatorship: Problems and Perspectives of Interpretation (Fourth Edition). London: Arnold, 2000. Chapters 2 and 7.
This is an excellent introduction to the historiographical interpretations of Hitler and his rise to power.
I really do think you will struggle to find any respected academic who would conclude that Germany, immediately prior to Hitler’s accession to the Chancellor, was democratic in anyway (or possibly at any stage in their history until after the Second World War)
Suggestions that the current day USA is close to a Nazi dictatorship are also, in my opinion, wide of the mark. However, please don’t confuse the above for my support for Bush or America more generally. My view on such matters is irrelevant and I do not wish to share them.
[and if you are interested in my limited background on this subject ... I am a PhD student studying aspects of Air Power during the Second World War under the supervision of Prof. Richard Overy. In addition, I teach undergraduate classes on Nazi Foriegn Policy, 1937 - 1939. Feel free to email me if you want any advice on further reading etc. ]
Last edited by Viper38 (2006-05-23 07:36:47)
Loving the immature negative karma I got for my original post. Whoever gave it to me needs to either post on this thread, read my post again or just realize that this subject is in over your head.
Last edited by TheMurf (2006-05-23 14:18:48)
for once, I agree totally<{SoE}>Agamemnar wrote:
Hippies deserve beatings.
I did mostly base that statement on a site which on closer inspection appears to be aimed at children, so it may well have been simplified a bit:Viper38 wrote:
I really do think you will struggle to find any respected academic who would conclude that Germany, immediately prior to Hitler’s accession to the Chancellor, was democratic in anyway (or possibly at any stage in their history until after the Second World War)
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Na … orship.htm
But still, it was officially a democracy, wasn't it? Basically would he have got to power without the support of millions of German voters? Was there not political freedom to vote for whoever you chose? Was the desire to have a ruler with a firm hand over the people and nationalistic state not due to post-war economic and ideological pressures, which lead people into selecting Hitler as the option most suited to them? I don't have the time to find out the full answers to these questions, so yes, perhaps you could suggest further reading relating to this time period which I will definitely add to my reading list.
TheMurf - Maybe the reason I put in the neg box wasn't clear enough for you. Disruption or nay, if people turn up in mass to protest then charging them with tear gas is beating them is unprovoked and unjustified violence. Violence which I have been on the receiving end of in the UK, just for being there. I've been filmed, I've been searched up to 5 times in a day, I seen them put stars by my name when they found leaflets from the protest. I gave you neg because put simply you basically tell people who don't like things as to get out of the country, rather than exercise their -=RIGHT=- to demonstrate. You call protesters ignorant and foolish. You call them anarchists. Anarchists by definition wouldn't participate in the democratic process in that way.TheMurf wrote:
Police "state" my ass. People blockade a building, that is disrupting a presidential event. They are asked to leave, they don't, they are removed. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy to someone who has no respect for the government that treats them so well. If you do not like it here, then please either stay away from the United States or leave and seek citizenship in another country. I think you will find that there are few countries with better rights than the US. I'm far too lazy and exhausted from dealing with the hundreds of people who protest and talk about the government with no real knowledge of what goes on to be able to truly expend enough energy to put things like this down anymore. It is ignorant and it is foolish. Perhaps if you do not appreciate all that the US does for its citizens or the world, then stay away from it, it does NOT concern you. If you are a citizen who hates your country, leave. Perhaps seek asylum and citizenship in China, see if it is better there. It frankly disgusts me how so many people complain and insult their country but, even if they have knowledge of events, they cannot come to any conclusion other than "I HATE LAW". Alright, then please, go to an anarchist country.
'Protesting Aggressively'? Don't make me laugh. The day a whole protest turns up in riot gear with batons, tear gas and guns, that's the day when I'll believe it's an aggressive protest. There was alot of aggression in that video, but it wasn't from the protesters, pal. I merely suggested to you that perhaps if you don't like the fact that people have the freedom to protest however they want without 'aggression' being used as an excuse to attack the whole crowd as one, maybe you should take your own suggestion and go somewhere else.TheMurf wrote:
Some idiot gave me negative karma telling me to leave the country if I don't like people being able to protest. No pal, I don't mind people able to protest, I just think it's ignorant people who protest aggressively. We get your point, don't try to blockade people and don't complain if the government won't stand for it. Oh, and that's a circular argument, I could tell you to leave the country if you don't like me being able to express myself. Stop trying to seem intelligent man, you really are in over your head. This thread really isn't for me, I think, if someone will negative karma me for expressing myself. Read my original post a little more carefully and I think you'll see I have a valid point, even if you don't agree with it, please do not be immature and give me negative karma for something like that. Whoever did that needs to grow up.
Basically, even reading your post as closely as the first time, I still get the same message:
Protesters don't like what the government does -> Your suggestion is for them to leave
You don't like what the protesters do -> Hmmm........ I made a similar suggestion for you. And you got offended, just like I knew you would. See, it's not nice when people tell you to leave a country for no valid reason, is it?
Both government and pressure from the people are core parts of a working democracy, and suggesting that people should leave rather than protest is definitely worthy of negative karma in my opinion. And now you feel the need to for a pointless rant about it, and call me an idiot. That makes me just feel all the more justified, thank you. I even initialed the comment, I'm sure a quick glance down the list of posters on this thread would have let you work out who UON is, if you really care that much why not do me. I couldn't care less to be honest.
Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-05-23 14:57:45)
So do Christian Religious Fanatics but back to the Topic: If I remember correctly we have a<{SoE}>Agamemnar wrote:
Hippies deserve beatings.
thing here called the Constitution and it has a little over looked line called the FIRST AMENDMENT
aka FREE SPEECH and if yelling "Fuck You" at the Man isn't FREE SPEECH I don't know what is????
And what about the Christians that Block Women from seeking a Dr.'s help?? or is that OK to do???TheMurf wrote:
Police "state" my ass. People blockade a building, that is disrupting a presidential event. They are asked to leave, they don't, they are removed. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy to someone who has no respect for the government that treats them so well. If you do not like it here, then please either stay away from the United States or leave and seek citizenship in another country. I think you will find that there are few countries with better rights than the US. I'm far too lazy and exhausted from dealing with the hundreds of people who protest and talk about the government with no real knowledge of what goes on to be able to truly expend enough energy to put things like this down anymore. It is ignorant and it is foolish. Perhaps if you do not appreciate all that the US does for its citizens or the world, then stay away from it, it does NOT concern you. If you are a citizen who hates your country, leave. Perhaps seek asylum and citizenship in China, see if it is better there. It frankly disgusts me how so many people complain and insult their country but, even if they have knowledge of events, they cannot come to any conclusion other than "I HATE LAW". Alright, then please, go to an anarchist country.
Why not just do like Bush did in 04 and make those "Special Protest Zones" miles from the actual event(sarcasm intended)
Last edited by Baron420 (2006-05-23 15:09:42)
That cop (the one in all the newspapers) was promoted to detective, I seen him in work last week!JahManRed wrote:
Something like this happened in Dublin not so long ago. The cops were caught on camera beating the shit out of peaceful protesters. There was a national out cry with the Robocops (media term) were sacked. It really highlights the difference between the right and the left in the usa. Your fellow citizens getting beat of a street that they own, yes you ppl own the country not Dubya and his cronies and because some of them have beards, they are hippies and deserve to be attacked by the ppl who are supposed to be protecting them. Open you eyes. Liberty & democracy are supposed to be at the heart of the american constitution.dosent look like it to me.
I do think the comparison to nazi's is abit over the top.
Just assume for one second that that video is not the complete picture of the demonstration, that there may have been events that you didnt see in that video for one reason or another(either because the cameras didnt catch them, or they were edited from the video to suit the motives of the editor). lets assume that those police arrive there to an unruly crowd ( and you must agree that someone screaming "Fuck You" at the top of their lungs in an inflammatory manner is unruly) parts of which are hiding their identity(Innocent people dont have a reason to hide their face as some of the protestors made clear). Now the police are not paid to be whipping boys for anybody with a grudge against....... (whatever) they have the right to protect themselves and an obligation to protect the public. when that demonstration seemed that it was about to boil over the police are duty bound to disperse it. They dont have a choice in the matter.UnOriginalNuttah wrote:
'Protesting Aggressively'? Don't make me laugh. The day a whole protest turns up in riot gear with batons, tear gas and guns, that's the day when I'll believe it's an aggressive protest. There was alot of aggression in that video, but it wasn't from the protesters, pal.
A reasonable person in that situation faced with an order to disperse will do just that, anyone who doesnt is well aware of the potential consequences and prepared for it (either aggressively or to act as a "martyr for the cause" and catch the pepper spray). now any parent with their child in that circumstance must realise what is about to happen. again the reasonable person would do anything they could to protect their child - eg disperse( but then a reasonable person probably wouldnt have a child there in the first place)
In short:
THe cops arent dealing with people making normal rational decisions, it is very obvious how worked up and confrontation some of those protestors are, it shouldnt take a police officer being wounded by a raving fanatic for people to think the police made the right decision. They obviously had their protest and feeling was running high - the correct thing was for the police to disband the mob before things got even more out of hand. remeber the protestors created the situation, NOT the police.