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2006-05-09 15:34:10
Empathy
Member
+12|6979
This will hurt "team play" more than it will help it?

I'd like to know, DICE, <capslock>WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU JACKHOLES CALL SPAWNING IN ON A SL AND THEN CREATING NEW SQUADS TO GET A FEW EXTRA PLAYERS IN ON A FLAG???</capslock> thats not exploiting. I'm sorry, but WHEN THE FUCK was working together to get a flag an EXPLOIT?! goddamnit if anything thats the kind of teamplay that anyone in their right mind would want. removing it cripples the teamplay and requires more solo work to reap any kind of reward.

BF2 is now entering the era of the armor for good. It will be nearly impossible to escape base rape now because of this "teamwork (exploit)." It will also share being the age of infantry, because only the extremely sneaky players will be able to be spawnpoints now.

My only concern now is that stupid idiotic retards will either 1) cede a flag to an armor whoring spawn camp, or 2) all spawn in on a flag as AT and rape the living hell out of spawn campers instead of being medics/specops to counter baserapers. 7 AT rockets will take out a tank more effectively and quickly than a medic trying to keep several C4 guys alive trying to sneak up to a base rape. I'll tell you this much, the only time I've EVER died in a baserape situation, it was because either 1) a SL snuck out then brought in a spec or engi, or 2) 3 or 4 AT men all shot at me before I could peg a few of them. Changing the squad situation will not change base rape, the only way to stop base rape is to play smart and spawn in the appropriate kit to counter the rape 1) ATs vs. armor rapes, 2) support/assault for inf. rapes, and if its chopper/aviator rape, you are now F***ed cause Sls wont be able to escape (if its the only flag)
2006-05-09 16:26:59
risa2000
Member
+0|6841

cheshiremoe wrote:

Quote from EA BF2 site.

Community Update - 5/09/06

Greetings Soldiers:

We at DICE and EA are aware of the concern surrounding the coming change to squad selection. We would like to take a moment to ease the feelings of tension related to this change.

Our goal is to refocus game play on team work, squad coordination and to also remove the spawning exploit used by some. In BF2 we introduced tools that would allow players to support one another as they battle for control points. To further enhance this aspect of game play squads were introduced to give players even more tools to coordinate their efforts and support each other.

Allowing squad mates to spawn on the squad leader was intended to provide an easy way for squads to stay together during chaotic battles. Unfortunately squad leaders have been used by some to launch team wide attacks on remote parts of maps with little thought to actual team unity beyond these maneuvers.

We believe this change will refocus the game play on team work and add more value to the roles of Squad Lead and Commander.

/The team at Dice and EA
I have seen a lot of you guys post about the not wanting them change the squad spawn.  We got there attention with the petition I guess, but do some of you guy think there is an exploit.  Is this just EA dodgeing that they are changing something that a large portion of the community does not want changed?

Personaly I think that the squad system should be much farther down the "To Do List" if changed at all.  What about all the bugs that still have not been fixed. like the name tag bugs where someone form the other team shows up in your squad creating a 7 person squad that you can't leave or the jamed lasser missiles on the jets.
There are two aspects of this "exploit". One is that the system was used to "rotate" the leadership in squad. For this dead squadleader needed to leave the squad and rejoin. This is in my opinion unnecessary nuisiance. There should be way of "passing leadership" onto living teammate (either deliberately or automatic). This make sense also compared to real life, when once the CO is dead, the next one in rank will step in.
In game this technique helps to keep squad alive in hot zone. I am definitely for keeping this "feature" in.

The other aspect is "squad hopping" when people are respawning on arbitrary squad leaders. This allows moving arbitrarily large force to any place on the map using just one drop from jet or heli and consequently spoils the map, because it makes the terrain and other map features irrelevant. This one I consider being exploit and will agree on removing it in a patch.

Shooting down both aspects I however found unfortunate, becase it could make squad leader role very unattractive - because who would want to camp out of battle and serve as the exclusive spawn point (and only this) for the most of the time?
2006-05-09 16:27:35
kilroy0097
Kilroy Is Here!
+81|7122|Bryan/College Station, TX
While I see where EA/DICE is coming from and while I don't believe it will hinder the game all that much, I do still believe that the SL is getting the shaft.  The only incentive for an SL is to want their team to win. There are no bonuses to points, half the time you stay out of the action to remain as a spawn point. And if you have a squad that is worth a shit then maybe you kill a bunch of people and take flags.

I am still a firm believer of the SL gaining a percentage of points that their squad gets. Much like the commander. After all the reflection of how well the squad is doing is dependent quite a bit on positioning of the spawn point, how well the SL is spoting if they can or offering cover support from a distant location. They also have to have a commander that is listening to them so that Artillery, Supply and UAVs are used when needed. If the Commander gets points for their team then it's only fair that the SL get points for their Squad.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
2006-05-09 16:32:40
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6968|Tampa Bay Florida
I'd rather them just release the god damn patch and booster pack and tell us all of this crap later--it's not like they're going to undo what they've already done

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-05-09 16:33:20)

2006-05-10 11:04:43
ViP.ShooTa
Member
+6|7028
Allowing squad mates to spawn on the squad leader was intended to provide an easy way for squads to stay together during chaotic battles. Unfortunately squad leaders have been used by some to launch team wide attacks on remote parts of maps with little thought to actual team unity beyond these maneuvers.
ok this section has been argued about in several posts above - mainly contradictions to this statement

ATM most people use the SL as a spawn for their unit - they die - check the spawn screen see where various SL are and join their squad so as to appear at their location.

Those who play with their friends or concentrate on having a good squad will stick within that squad using their SL as their spawn base throught the round.

Now those two statements above show two types of player - the loaner and the teamplayer.

the section above in orange implies the worst case senario that happens with SL spawning

[Senario] - u have  4 firends on a server
Join game
Select Squad on SL who is near enemy flag
Spawn
Leave Squad
Create new squad
Friends Spawn on you
[/senario]

Ok Now imagine that guy who was the first SL - and then EACH on of the 5 guys that spawned off him then created another squad - VOILA instant 6 squads - now if each squad was full  thats 6x6 = 36 People who could Spawn on the Orignal guy

Yes this is an Extreme senario - But ive seen it happen - But usually it happens with smaller numbers - but yes IT HAPPENS

AND IMHO it does detract from Gameplay And Teamplay
now as for solutions

EA are concidering stopping SL spawning Unless you join the squad and spawn once on a WHITE SPAWN LOCATION - ie not the SL - now this prevents Initial spawning form death

and FORCES the spawning players to work with the squad for a short time - therefore making the player have an alegiance with that squad

THERFORE placing a huge teamwork factor on those in squads -yet still  allows individual squad members to act like loan wolves..

AND making the SL  much more important in the teamwork aspect of the game -
- HOwever this does NOT give the SL any bonuses for being SL and doing his Job of teamwork -

SO ...

---
how can teamwork be more inforced? well one option could be to enforce a zone around the SL which once left would make you leave the squad
- also making the SL more valuable making his prtection a larger factor - again then there would have be some bonus for acting as a SL -

---
open for your interpretation and thoughts -- enjoy.
2006-05-11 04:31:29
c0rce
Member
+11|6846
I agree with the public server bit, people swap squads to find best spawn points, but not the firend squad bit. True you stick in one squad, but the SL rotates because the SL may have died at a forward position, so they leave, rejoin and spawn on what was one of the squad members.

This isn't how the game was intended to be played, but it does have advantages:

1. On big maps infantry don't end up finally arriving at the front line, dying and then having to make another masive journey, they just find a SL in a similar position and spawn.

2. On maps where you are pinned down and one squad leader manages to break the lines and flank the enemy, you can spawn on him and take a flag quickly (alone he will probably fail).

3. You may die and notice the enemy is attacking a point, so you join the SL in the hot zone to help defend.

If you take away the immeadiate spawn ability, you make the game slower (could be a good or bad thing, but the increased traveling would be annoying imo).

You make it harder to break through a good teams front line (matches will become more one sided, but then a team who is much better will win anyway)

It will become harder to defend flags.

I'm predicting that after this change it will be easier for a team to lock out a map if they are better than the other team. Basically in a public server there will be even more emphasis on choosing the right team. Clan matches will probably see certain matches where there is a bit of a mis match in clan skill becmoing complete white washes and as a result no fun for the loosing side.
2006-05-11 05:26:23
kilroy0097
Kilroy Is Here!
+81|7122|Bryan/College Station, TX
An idea that was brought forward by someone else was to introduce a unit role that was between Commander and the Squad Leaders. Esspecially a Platoon Leader. I actually believe this is a good idea. This allows a player to be a Platoon Leader from which Squad Leaders could also spawn from. Given only two of these platoon leaders would keep people in their squads because squad leaders could still spawn at forward locations and hence people don't have to worry about the SL getting back into position. Give these platoon leaders the ability to gain points much like a Commander does from their team instead only gain points from their squads under them. A similar idea has been presented also to have the Squad Leader gain a percentage of points from their squad.

Either one of these ideas would promote the use of Squad Leaders in the role as mobile spawn points and actually reward good squad leaders for remaining in safer locations.

Which ever idea is presented the main idea still remains the same. There is nothing in the game, other than personal satifactions of teamplay, that rewards good squad leaders. Hence DICE is forcing people to work as squads and yet still does nothing to make the Squad Leader position appealing to the average player. It's yet another aspect of the game they really need to work on.

The proximity idea of having squad members have to be in a certain area around the Squad Leader is not a good one simply because some areas are larger than this proximity circle could feasibly be. Even though they are acting together as a squad does not mean they have to be next to the squad leader. Many defendable locations are spread out.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
2006-05-11 10:07:36
Bigwrm
I want my money, or my bud!
+33|6937

M1-Lightning wrote:

Boycott the patch!!! Those morons are taking away the teamwork. EA sucks my ass.

http://www.digitalgladiators.com/module … Asucks.gif

"Unfortunately squad leaders have been used by some to launch team wide attacks on remote parts of maps"

Team wide my ass, you can only have 5 players spawn on a squad leader. BS! It's hard enough just to get 2-3 of those 5 to spawn on you.

Dice sucks my ass.
STFU.  You people that whine about EA can fuck off.  Stop playing EA games.  Cold turkey.  Taking away teamwork? 

  Teamwork is not having 31 diff guys join and leave your sqaud just so they can spawn close to a flag.  Teamwork is sticking together.  Not just find the SL thats closest to a flag,  joining,  spawning then leaving.

   As nice as it is,  EA is not "taking away teamwork"
2006-05-12 12:28:04
CmdrTenchi
Sniper / End-Runner / Wedge
+5|7008|Behind your front lines...
It'd be interesting to see if they could adapt the code from 2142 for the SL to create a destroyable beacon... as this seems to be the best resolution to this dilemma.

Commentary from a Squad Leader...
2006-05-13 00:05:32
kilroy0097
Kilroy Is Here!
+81|7122|Bryan/College Station, TX

CmdrTenchi wrote:

It'd be interesting to see if they could adapt the code from 2142 for the SL to create a destroyable beacon... as this seems to be the best resolution to this dilemma.

Commentary from a Squad Leader...
I wish I could say that something like this would happen but honesty I don't believe it will. All the mistakes they made with game balance and functionality of units and weapons they are fixing and making these changes in BF2142. Hence it will be a better game with alot more of things the community wants. After all they need to have the bait for the hook to catch players and have them buy BF2142.

Promise currently BF2 players actual fixes for all the bugs in BF2 and lure them to BF2142. It's a marking plan and it's just easier for them to do than putting out constant patches to a game that is inherently broken mechanically.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
2006-05-13 00:20:19
l=l-Oneill-l=l
Member
+27|7115|Dundas, ONT, Canada

-=256=-Evo_Wales wrote:

Just destroying a very valid Clan tactic!

Happened to us couple games ago on Wake. One USMC bailed, squaddie spawned on him --> new squad

BAM whole team at Airfield

Very good tactic that EA are going to ruin
after this patch good luck on getting on Wake at all.
2006-05-13 00:25:44
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6951|Colorado
I say fix all the bugs before you add stuff or rework it, but thats just crazy me.
2006-05-13 11:14:26
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6899|London, England

TheDarkRaven wrote:

There was nothing wrong with the Squad part of the game - as far as I am concerned.
The artillery pretty much fucks up any decent squad play. There's a problem. There's a reason why people don't like being in a squad. There's a reason why people don't like playing togethor. All that is needed is a half-brained commander to scan, find the blob and fire a barrage. Easy enough..

Have no idea how artillery made it's way into a game designed for teamplay. Therefore you gotta beleive that this game really isn't a team-game at all. It never was (artillery has been there since the start)

 

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