BF2S Forums for you catholics,jews w/e if u believe in god read this

A lot of banned people in this thread and the thread starter is one of them.
What were we discussing again?

Spark wrote:

Are you retarded? Or didn't you hear me saying that 'I won't dispute the bible's account of Jesus'?

Isn't it funny that almost EVERY NATURAL PHENOMENON can be explained by the theories of:

Evolution.
Plate tectonics.
Relativity.
Chaos Theory/Quantum mechanics.

And can you give me A DATE for creation? You're saying that humans lived for either 6000, 10000. 2 million of 20 million years. Make up your fucking mind!

And how do you explain cyanobacteria fossils? Don't tell me they are not real - they are real and can be seen ONLY at shark bay. Why only there? Because the predators that fed on them didn't adapt to very saline conditions, that's why.

How do you explain bacteria evolving IN THE LAB? Why are there 'strains' of bacteria - some less than 50 years old? Why are we afraid of bird flu developing human-to-human capabilities? If God created H5N1 so it COULDN'T - why are we afraid it can? Why are we seeing that this virus is the same strain as the one that developed in the 1910's - killing 50 million AT LEAST? WHY AREN'T THEY IDENTICAL?

Is it a coincidence that cows need a diet low in copper - and come from copper-poor areas (Europe)? Is it a coincidence that sheep need a copper-high diet - and come from copper rich areas (Middle Asia)? Why, then, did God say to raise them side-by-side, even though they have vastly different dietary requirements? What explanation do you have for this? God put them there and they just adapted to the conditions? That's called evolution.

How can you explain earthquakes, volcanoes etc. WITHOUT plate tectonics? Isn't it a bit strange that creationists try to debase the theory, then use it to debase another theory? How do you explain sea-floor spreading, AND weird 'strips' of polar reversal? How do you explain subduction?

How come every time we move to a new place, discover new land - the local wildife is demolished? Shouldn't God have known that humans would spread around the world - especially as HE was the one who did it in the first place! What better explanation do you have apart from the one that they had never been in contact with humans - so didn't develop defences afainst them?

Is it a coincidence that our tolerance for rare earth AND trace elements is EXACTLY PROPORTIONAL to the amount that is exposed to us? Is it God's work that we need a little selenium, but no lead? Isn't it strange that all of these new, man-made elements are toxic to us AT ALL LEVELS - but God must've knew they were possible! After all, he WROTE the laws of physics! Or did the 'laws of physics' evolve into such - so to speak - as most astrophysicists would say?

How do you explain bacteria that break down chemical materials - none of which are of the slightest use to them? Did God just make it so they can eat it - for no reason whatsoever?

If Genesis is correct, then the oldest human remains should be found either in the middle-east or northwest Africa. But hangon! The oldest remains were found in the RIFT VALLEY - a long way away.

And why would they NEED cities? Why do they NEED agriculture - it is much easier to pick up berries, hunt animals and catch fish than it is to plant a crop and harvest. Very unreliable - you depend on too many factors!

And if there was enough water to cover the Himalayas, as you suggest, where is it now? That is a LOT of water - about 9km deep! All the ice in the world can't raise the sea levels more than you can run in 15 seconds. So there are massive stores of water underground? Then show me evidence! I know there IS water underground - but not that much.

And why do humans need stone tools - the bible says that they were 'granted' the knowledge of much more advanced weapons straight away.

How can a flood disrupt U-235 decay? If the earth was less than 600 million years old - then every single rock with U-235 should have more than half of it - and half lead. But instead, we get rocks with almost ALL lead - and about a tenth of a percent Uranium.

IF the Big Bang never happened - then how do explain CMB? How do explain the inexplicable redshift? How do you explain the absence of ANY elements save hydrogen, deuterium, tritium, helium etc. - until fairly recently? How do you explain quasars seeming to be forming NOW - when redshift says that they formed 10 billion years ago?

How do explain the fact that the Big Bang theory was FIRST PROPOSED BY THE CHURCH? Why are you trying to debunk it? (talking to creationists in general here) Why does it seem to work?

How do you explain superdisasters? I hear no mention of the many asteroids hitting earth in the bible - several million of them - that would disrupt WORLD CLIMATE. I hear no mention of the tens of asteroids - some bigger than the 'dinosaur-killer' that have peppered the earth's surface. I hear nothing about super-eruptions, but they've been happening for millions of years! I hear nothing of hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis and such. Wouldn't have God warned the people of the Earth about these dangers? All they knew about was earthquakes. And surprise! the Middle-East is known for being an earthquake prone zone.

How did the dodo survive the flood, heh? No-one had heard of it until they found it on a remote island. And surprise! evolution can explain how they got there but why they can't get out. How would a flightless bird escape a flood that covered the whole globe?

AND HOW CAN FORTY DAYS OF RAIN CONSTITUTE A GLOBAL FLOOD? The atmosphere holds an AMAZINGLY SMALL amount of the the worlds water (like, under a percent). So you're saying that rain can somehow multiply exponentially the amount of water in the ocean?

If it wasn't global, then why are you purporting all this 'evidence' that says it was?

Why are you so SELECIVE when choosing evidence - you seem to focus on carbon dating, but that's not how some very old rocks are dated. How do you explain a rock dated to 4.3 billion years in Western Australia? The flood? Don't work - zircons can survive - untounched -  ALL geologic processes - except subduction (which constitutes plate tectonics. And Australia never has HAD subduction). Remember what I said about radioactive decay? Maybe not, so I will post the answer direct from a well-regarded physics site:

"Because the radioactive half-life of a given radioisotope is not affected by temperature, physical or chemical state, or any other influence of the environment outside the nucleus save direct particle interactions with the nucleus, then radioactive samples continue to decay at a predictable rate. If determinations or reasonable estimates of the original composition of a radioactive sample can be made, then the amounts of the radioisotopes present can provide a measurement of the time elapsed." -- Hyperphysics

So I'm afraid until you can do these two things:

1. Show me how else bacteria can develop resistance to antibiotics and develop new capabilities in a FEW YEARS. - without evolution.

2. Show me how a global flood is scientifically possible - and if not, how uranium/lead zircons can be dated wrongly - given the info I just posted.

3. Show me another, scientifically PLAUSIBLE theory that takes in ALL THE EVIDENCE and fits in with it - something creationists have never done. They are incredibly inconsistent - not giving exact evidence, not giving exact dates or info, giving very sketchy data etc.

Until you comprehensively answer these three questions, you have LOST.

EDITS: After dinner stuff... from the zircons onwards. ~Spark

Well for number three at the bottom it is something called faith.  Not the scientific evidence you so crave that keeps creationists going. 

You're also taking some events too literal.  For the Ancient world a flood that went over a vaste amount of the Middle East would be enough to called a flood of the entire world.  It is also from prehistoric times, meaning that it was a dated event (they've found evidence in the Middle East of a giant flood) from before written history.   That strikes down your anti flood theory.

As for getting all the animals on the arc it could have been all of the regional animals or livestock of the area so that they had enough food for the duration of the flood.  Not to mention that birds would flock to the only possible landing area.

You also take the 7 days as a literal 7 days.  Flip of a switch yada yada.  Why can't the Big Bang and those millions or billions of years be the creation of heaven and earth?  Is it that improbable that they changed the time to something more of a story line that is easier to remember and still holds the same meaning.  You have to remember that these stories were oral from before written history.

Day 1: Creation of Heaven and Earth: Big Bang, stars form, minerals and water collect together and start to form gravity well objects bringing in more material.  Get grabbed by stars and fall into a semi decent orbit.  The smaller bits form asteriods and planets are peppered and reshaped, "by the hands of God," with these objects.

You notice how he created the sky afterwards, that would be the gasses attracted to and then retained by the planet's gravity.  Animals formed first, then man.

And what makes it that even if God knew that humans were going to do something that he should stop us from destroying the wild life or anything like that.  The Christian God created and gave free will so it is up to the human beings as what to do. 

And evolution and creation are not totally seperated from one another.  It would be ridiculas to say that when something was created it had to remain as it was.  Come on, you're basically saying that it HAS to be either creation or evolution.   Why can't creation and evolution be one in the same, over time stories are going to change, but underneath it all it is the real story.

This would explain the cows and sheeps differeing, they could be created side by side or where ever God felt like.  He created animals and bacteria because he felt like it, many things may not have a direct purpose to us but they were created anyway.  Come on you are too focused on trying to disprove a theory that you can't see that the two theories could be, and in my eyes, are the same.

Ridir wrote:

Spark wrote:

Are you retarded? Or didn't you hear me saying that 'I won't dispute the bible's account of Jesus'?

Isn't it funny that almost EVERY NATURAL PHENOMENON can be explained by the theories of:

Evolution.
Plate tectonics.
Relativity.
Chaos Theory/Quantum mechanics.

And can you give me A DATE for creation? You're saying that humans lived for either 6000, 10000. 2 million of 20 million years. Make up your fucking mind!

And how do you explain cyanobacteria fossils? Don't tell me they are not real - they are real and can be seen ONLY at shark bay. Why only there? Because the predators that fed on them didn't adapt to very saline conditions, that's why.

How do you explain bacteria evolving IN THE LAB? Why are there 'strains' of bacteria - some less than 50 years old? Why are we afraid of bird flu developing human-to-human capabilities? If God created H5N1 so it COULDN'T - why are we afraid it can? Why are we seeing that this virus is the same strain as the one that developed in the 1910's - killing 50 million AT LEAST? WHY AREN'T THEY IDENTICAL?

Is it a coincidence that cows need a diet low in copper - and come from copper-poor areas (Europe)? Is it a coincidence that sheep need a copper-high diet - and come from copper rich areas (Middle Asia)? Why, then, did God say to raise them side-by-side, even though they have vastly different dietary requirements? What explanation do you have for this? God put them there and they just adapted to the conditions? That's called evolution.

How can you explain earthquakes, volcanoes etc. WITHOUT plate tectonics? Isn't it a bit strange that creationists try to debase the theory, then use it to debase another theory? How do you explain sea-floor spreading, AND weird 'strips' of polar reversal? How do you explain subduction?

How come every time we move to a new place, discover new land - the local wildife is demolished? Shouldn't God have known that humans would spread around the world - especially as HE was the one who did it in the first place! What better explanation do you have apart from the one that they had never been in contact with humans - so didn't develop defences afainst them?

Is it a coincidence that our tolerance for rare earth AND trace elements is EXACTLY PROPORTIONAL to the amount that is exposed to us? Is it God's work that we need a little selenium, but no lead? Isn't it strange that all of these new, man-made elements are toxic to us AT ALL LEVELS - but God must've knew they were possible! After all, he WROTE the laws of physics! Or did the 'laws of physics' evolve into such - so to speak - as most astrophysicists would say?

How do you explain bacteria that break down chemical materials - none of which are of the slightest use to them? Did God just make it so they can eat it - for no reason whatsoever?

If Genesis is correct, then the oldest human remains should be found either in the middle-east or northwest Africa. But hangon! The oldest remains were found in the RIFT VALLEY - a long way away.

And why would they NEED cities? Why do they NEED agriculture - it is much easier to pick up berries, hunt animals and catch fish than it is to plant a crop and harvest. Very unreliable - you depend on too many factors!

And if there was enough water to cover the Himalayas, as you suggest, where is it now? That is a LOT of water - about 9km deep! All the ice in the world can't raise the sea levels more than you can run in 15 seconds. So there are massive stores of water underground? Then show me evidence! I know there IS water underground - but not that much.

And why do humans need stone tools - the bible says that they were 'granted' the knowledge of much more advanced weapons straight away.

How can a flood disrupt U-235 decay? If the earth was less than 600 million years old - then every single rock with U-235 should have more than half of it - and half lead. But instead, we get rocks with almost ALL lead - and about a tenth of a percent Uranium.

IF the Big Bang never happened - then how do explain CMB? How do explain the inexplicable redshift? How do you explain the absence of ANY elements save hydrogen, deuterium, tritium, helium etc. - until fairly recently? How do you explain quasars seeming to be forming NOW - when redshift says that they formed 10 billion years ago?

How do explain the fact that the Big Bang theory was FIRST PROPOSED BY THE CHURCH? Why are you trying to debunk it? (talking to creationists in general here) Why does it seem to work?

How do you explain superdisasters? I hear no mention of the many asteroids hitting earth in the bible - several million of them - that would disrupt WORLD CLIMATE. I hear no mention of the tens of asteroids - some bigger than the 'dinosaur-killer' that have peppered the earth's surface. I hear nothing about super-eruptions, but they've been happening for millions of years! I hear nothing of hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis and such. Wouldn't have God warned the people of the Earth about these dangers? All they knew about was earthquakes. And surprise! the Middle-East is known for being an earthquake prone zone.

How did the dodo survive the flood, heh? No-one had heard of it until they found it on a remote island. And surprise! evolution can explain how they got there but why they can't get out. How would a flightless bird escape a flood that covered the whole globe?

AND HOW CAN FORTY DAYS OF RAIN CONSTITUTE A GLOBAL FLOOD? The atmosphere holds an AMAZINGLY SMALL amount of the the worlds water (like, under a percent). So you're saying that rain can somehow multiply exponentially the amount of water in the ocean?

If it wasn't global, then why are you purporting all this 'evidence' that says it was?

Why are you so SELECIVE when choosing evidence - you seem to focus on carbon dating, but that's not how some very old rocks are dated. How do you explain a rock dated to 4.3 billion years in Western Australia? The flood? Don't work - zircons can survive - untounched -  ALL geologic processes - except subduction (which constitutes plate tectonics. And Australia never has HAD subduction). Remember what I said about radioactive decay? Maybe not, so I will post the answer direct from a well-regarded physics site:

"Because the radioactive half-life of a given radioisotope is not affected by temperature, physical or chemical state, or any other influence of the environment outside the nucleus save direct particle interactions with the nucleus, then radioactive samples continue to decay at a predictable rate. If determinations or reasonable estimates of the original composition of a radioactive sample can be made, then the amounts of the radioisotopes present can provide a measurement of the time elapsed." -- Hyperphysics

So I'm afraid until you can do these two things:

1. Show me how else bacteria can develop resistance to antibiotics and develop new capabilities in a FEW YEARS. - without evolution.

2. Show me how a global flood is scientifically possible - and if not, how uranium/lead zircons can be dated wrongly - given the info I just posted.

3. Show me another, scientifically PLAUSIBLE theory that takes in ALL THE EVIDENCE and fits in with it - something creationists have never done. They are incredibly inconsistent - not giving exact evidence, not giving exact dates or info, giving very sketchy data etc.

Until you comprehensively answer these three questions, you have LOST.

EDITS: After dinner stuff... from the zircons onwards. ~Spark

Well for number three at the bottom it is something called faith.  Not the scientific evidence you so crave that keeps creationists going. 

You're also taking some events too literal.  For the Ancient world a flood that went over a vaste amount of the Middle East would be enough to called a flood of the entire world.  It is also from prehistoric times, meaning that it was a dated event (they've found evidence in the Middle East of a giant flood) from before written history.   That strikes down your anti flood theory.

As for getting all the animals on the arc it could have been all of the regional animals or livestock of the area so that they had enough food for the duration of the flood.  Not to mention that birds would flock to the only possible landing area.

You also take the 7 days as a literal 7 days.  Flip of a switch yada yada.  Why can't the Big Bang and those millions or billions of years be the creation of heaven and earth?  Is it that improbable that they changed the time to something more of a story line that is easier to remember and still holds the same meaning.  You have to remember that these stories were oral from before written history.

Day 1: Creation of Heaven and Earth: Big Bang, stars form, minerals and water collect together and start to form gravity well objects bringing in more material.  Get grabbed by stars and fall into a semi decent orbit.  The smaller bits form asteriods and planets are peppered and reshaped, "by the hands of God," with these objects.

You notice how he created the sky afterwards, that would be the gasses attracted to and then retained by the planet's gravity.  Animals formed first, then man.

And what makes it that even if God knew that humans were going to do something that he should stop us from destroying the wild life or anything like that.  The Christian God created and gave free will so it is up to the human beings as what to do. 

And evolution and creation are not totally seperated from one another.  It would be ridiculas to say that when something was created it had to remain as it was.  Come on, you're basically saying that it HAS to be either creation or evolution.   Why can't creation and evolution be one in the same, over time stories are going to change, but underneath it all it is the real story.

This would explain the cows and sheeps differeing, they could be created side by side or where ever God felt like.  He created animals and bacteria because he felt like it, many things may not have a direct purpose to us but they were created anyway.  Come on you are too focused on trying to disprove a theory that you can't see that the two theories could be, and in my eyes, are the same.

Firstly, I'm not too pleased at this thread being revived

Secondly: I was responding to a person who thought it WAS literal, and WAS trying to prove creationism ot the world.

Thirdly: Even a metaphorical interpretation of creationism turns up some strange results - There is no universal ancestor as required by evolution. Now, I know the logical response to this is that all the intermediary forms were created at the same time: but this is a very long-winded and convoluted answer to this phenomena - it's like saying someone carefully prepared a body so it looked like he shot someone (when there was absolutely no reason to) instead of just shooting him. It just doesn't make sense.

I appreciate the answer though.

is it possible that parts of a car in a room can come together in right way and create a car? if someone says this is ok, then he should just wait for the meal coming in front of him prepared by itself.

Last edited by Ottomania (2007-02-17 00:26:38)

52 pages, that's a lot.

What of free will? I am free to believe in God or not, in my country. If I did believe in God, then he would exist to me. But I don't.

Jeez, 52 pages, No one could possibly be bothered reading my post, I'm just drinking Sparkling Ale, watching Eurovision, waiting for my girlfriend.

Ottomania wrote:

is it possible that parts of a car in a room can come together in right way and create a car? if someone says this is ok, then he should just wait for the meal coming in front of him prepared by itself.

If you didn't mind waiting a billion odd years for a meal that weighed less than a nanogram then I guess you could do that, yes.

Ottomania wrote:

is it possible that parts of a car in a room can come together in right way and create a car? if someone says this is ok, then he should just wait for the meal coming in front of him prepared by itself.

if that's your idea of a simplified version of the evolution theory I'm not surprised you're sceptical, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution ...read

Im going to have to say that I am Catholic. I dont think that going to church or believing is a waste. Shure its hard sometimes but its not called faith for nothing. As for Evolution vs the 7 days, maybe God was just tying to simplify evolution for a simpler poeple. There is no denying the fossil record, but even palentologists I know will admit that there is a great deal we just dont know about early life of earth. And if i die and there is no heaven, God or anything, I wont care because my awareness will have ceased to exist.

Thats just a young Catholic boys view on it.

Hey the thread is still here just thought I might add my cup of tea.

A)I never said anything about dinosaurs. Dinosaurs in the sense that you are talking arent around because after the catastophic event that wiped them out oxygen levels were lower. The animals that were small and survived(not to say that some of the larger animals didnt survive) would have had to have lived in a world where there was little or no sunlight, food or much else. So life just didnt feel like progressing.

B)Cave paintings? Is that how little you know of past people? Do you think they kept blogs of thier expiriences in cave paintings?

This thread is proof that there is God and there isn't God.  I guess we'll all find out some day, right?

/discussion

holy revive batman!

Zukabazuka wrote:

NICE, This topic is about 2 YEARS old. Good work mister. One thing for sure, if dinasours where in our current time, why aren't there any cave paintings about it? or stories of monster 10x bigger than humans?

Who the hell pissed you off today?

I bet you would be the same ass that tells him to search when he makes his own thread on it.

[Puts another bullet into the carcass of the 'dead' thread]

No. Not again.




EDIT: You for real...?

NAthANSmitt wrote:

B)Cave paintings? Is that how little you know of past people? Do you think they kept blogs of thier expiriences in cave paintings?

Many cave paintings revolved around hunting, depicting the hunters themselves and the animals being hunted. It would then be a natural conclusion to connect a lack of cave paintings about (significantly) larger animals with the actual lack of dinosaurs (or whatever term you want) in our current time...