topal63 wrote:
lowing wrote:
Marconius wrote:
And with this said, it can be concluded that it is absolutely futile to keep talking to JamDude, expecting an intelligent debate from his represented side. This has definitely been a wild and crazy thread, and religious discussion always is as such, and it only gets better when you have proper educated people on both sides of the argument going at it.
My question is this.................Who is REALLY educated or have facts about what happens to us or our soul ( if we have one ) when we die?..........the answer...............nobody, not even the pope or marconius or jamdude. there is no inteligance that goes along with discussing things that nobody has experianced and lived to talk about or share. We will alllllll find out soon enough.
You are as wrong. . . as the others:
You can discuss it. . .
You can define what you can know/do know. . .
You can discuss spirituality with an atheist (either spirit is; or spirit is not; either way both groups are in the SAME ACTUAL spiritual vessel of NOT KNOWING in any CERTAIN SENSE as to what is the meta-physcial?). . .
Meta-physics is the extension of the physical (what we do know can know) into a system of what might be; that beyond the mask of reality (but it BETTER point back to the REAL in some sense. This is why most people of reason object to the meta-physical systems of super-nature found in religion; it is disconnected from the real; utterly too unreal & often impossible; or literal when it shouldn't be; its extensions from the physical to the meta-physical are utterly broken - as a figure of speech). . .
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What is soul? Is easily rendered to that [something] which is unaffected by reality. As everything you actually might associate to soul should be associated to BRAIN: personality, memory, happiness, personal bonds, thinking, wondering, logic, fear, all emotions, all thought, all systems of belief, etc; they are all contained in the vessel of the BRAIN (and its systems, functions); not the suspect notion of soul (if we are talking about soul; when the concept/idea is utterly unexamined in any sense).
You emote from the BRAIN then call it SOUL. Damage the BRAIN and every mind-brain-aspect previsously listed can be totally destroyed. Whittle away at a mind (the BRAIN) and you are removing a person one piece at a time until nothing is left. THIS IS A FACT. My grandmother died last Wednesday night, after a 2 week fight with pneumonia, she had advanced Alzheimer's - she did not even know where she was, me, nor any of her own children. I saw her lose her faith in god - not because she lost faith - it was taken away in it's entirety by the disease Alzheimer's, bit by bit; until she no longer had her comfort [her faith], she did not even know that she ever was a Christain; then she did not know she ever was a grandmother; the she did not know she ever was a mother - then she died.
If there is a soul it is utterly disconnected from the REAL aspects of everything we associate with/to spirituality: faith (requires learning it - thus requires a brain - thus requires faculity to keep it), the emotions of compassion, altruism and any worlview crisis associated to it (requires a brain, and a continued & good biological working order of it); etc (all thought, all emotion). Without even getting logically techincal about it - it is easy to see that nothing REAL can be associated to soul; nothing not even our spirtual sense, unique personalities, emotions and/or systems (these require brain). If there is such a thing as soul it is unnaffected by reality; as it relates to who I am in every sense of the real ME - the one hear and now - the emergent/becomming that is the personality - I AM. I think therefore I AM - I emote therefore I AM - I am brain.
And that only means the meta-physical system & belief (philosophy, theology) surrounding the concept of soul - as it it streams from super-nature spirtual systems - seems to be utterly discordant within it's own relgio-philosophical meta-system.
And this holds true for any nonsensical meta-physical-system or belief associated to you as energy (the quantum particles that make up - the you - the me). You are NOT the energy that you are made out of - you are the pattern sustained/replaced within the vessel of energy (I am guessing at the # here, but I think it's about every 3 years - nearly every [or all] molecule[s]/atom[s]/energy-particle[s] in your body has [have] been replaced). You are not the atoms that make you up - you are the pattern that is sustained/repaired/or that persists within (while the energy is moving in and out). When the body dies the energy is not converted - it is simply changed in biological form to inert potential for other life to use - and the emergent pattern (the you) dissappears. This is why it is difficult to construct a meaningful meta-physical extension of reality based upon old 4-corner world thinking & ideas.