BF2S Forums for you catholics,jews w/e if u believe in god read this

first off, i'd like to state that i am a very devoted/devout christian and would like to say a few things concerning the existence of God. i dont' think that God's existence is something to be even be questioned. What proof do i have that God exists? I'm living on it. The earth that was created and everything living on it is so complex that man can not even comphrehend it. first off, take the biology of a human being. our bodies are made up of billions of cells, each of them working together to form one being. we have a number of different systems in our body also, respiratory, circulatory, and the digestive system. each of them so complex it has taken man since the beginning of time to come this far in medicine, which is pretty impressive, but there is still so much we don't know about the human body. What does the spleen do? how do we cure cancer? how do we cure the common cold?
     to those of you who believe in the big bang, what proof do you have? how often do things get randomly created in our world? the proof i have of creation some of you may not seem valid. but my proof is the bible. God tells us in the bible that He created the world. who can really argue it? those of you who say the big bang has been proven....how? The bible is refuteable. there are accounts of stout atheists who have spent years trying to disprove the bible, only to be converted to Christianity based on the fact they could not disprove it. read the book "The Case for Christ" this is one of them. to say that there is no God and that the world randomly appeared is as foolish as saying that every building in New York just appeared out of nowhere one day............................................   everything created has a creator

JaMDuDe wrote:

Its more like like trying to win the lottery and the chances are 1/1,000,000,000,000 and they are only handing out 100 billion tickets. The bible says He is a fair judge, he doesnt give people sin its ALL their choice. Just because we cant understand some things doesnt means hes not there and hes an unfair judge. Silent noise thats not the reason to believe, its just one of the many. I just dont think BILLIONS of people would worship air.

Nope, sorry but you said God created us. We didn't choose anything. All we are are creations from a higher being. He created us. He created the ways we think, he creates the way we act, he creates the way we question thing. The way he created us is the result for our sins. God created EVERYTHING. Our ability to choose to be evil is an ability HE GAVE US. Our ability to go against him is one HE GAVE US. Our ability to sin is one that HE GAVE US. He cannot be a just being if he punishes for abilities he hands out to us and ones that he KNOWS will make us become sinners (because he knows the past, present and future).

And for the people worshipping air, I find it highly likely. I believe it is very possible for billions to worship nothing. If you can't find a reason to live, make one up. People will do anything to try and find hope, even if it means making something up to do it. People lie, cheat and live fake lives all the time in the search for happiness, I don't see how this is any different. Its just seen as ok by society's eyes this way.

I wrote a book one time. If I say I'm god does that mean that its real and that people should worship it? Does it mean that it is the truth no matter what? Just because someone says something doesn't mean its true. Along with jamdude's christian website. Just because some people say it doesn't mean its true. I could reference a website saying three words: "There's no god", and just because i reference it doesn't mean it can backup my argument.

And again, what if the bible were written as fiction and a group just read too much into it. If a future society decided that superman was real and that they wanted to worship him, does that make it reasonable that he does exist?

Last edited by SilentNoise105 (2006-04-21 15:47:59)

wombatman4 wrote:

first off, i'd like to state that i am a very devoted/devout christian and would like to say a few things concerning the existence of God. i dont' think that God's existence is something to be even be questioned. What proof do i have that God exists? I'm living on it. The earth that was created and everything living on it is so complex that man can not even comphrehend it. first off, take the biology of a human being. our bodies are made up of billions of cells, each of them working together to form one being. we have a number of different systems in our body also, respiratory, circulatory, and the digestive system. each of them so complex it has taken man since the beginning of time to come this far in medicine, which is pretty impressive, but there is still so much we don't know about the human body. What does the spleen do? how do we cure cancer? how do we cure the common cold?
     to those of you who believe in the big bang, what proof do you have? how often do things get randomly created in our world? the proof i have of creation some of you may not seem valid. but my proof is the bible. God tells us in the bible that He created the world. who can really argue it? those of you who say the big bang has been proven....how? The bible is refuteable. there are accounts of stout atheists who have spent years trying to disprove the bible, only to be converted to Christianity based on the fact they could not disprove it. read the book "The Case for Christ" this is one of them. to say that there is no God and that the world randomly appeared is as foolish as saying that every building in New York just appeared out of nowhere one day............................................   everything created has a creator

Another person who doesn't like to hear anyone else's point of view. There have been christians too who have become athiests as there is no real proof in god. Its quite possible that things could have happened naturally. Think about this:

I don't know why you say its so bizarre that we just happened to fit into being in existence. If any other combination of things would have happened, a different lifeform would have shown up (or maybe none at all), but the combination for humans and earth showed up so here we are. Just because you have a low chance of winning the lottery doesn't mean that no one ever wins the lottery ever.

A CD has 20 tracks. You play the cd and shuffle the tracks. This gives you a unique order of tracks. The odds of having this unique order is 0.0000000000000000411032% (the odds of getting any order of 20 tracks, played only once). So this is your chance of getting it at random. Now this number is very, very small and yet it happened. Now guess what the odds of this happening are if a "higher power" picks them in that same order. Well the chance of that happening with someone choosing is also 0.0000000000000000411032%. This is because even though the person chose the certain order, the person had that many other possibilities to choose from. So if you don't believe it could randomly happen that we just existed out of nothing, well then your pretty much saying we don't exist. The odds of ANY OTHER POSSIBILITY are the same as us appearing and being created from the big bang.

And finally you said everything created has a creator, so who created god? If things can't just pop up out of nowhere, what is the explanation behind god's birth? what about god's creator? and the one before that? You can't use the theory that god has been here since the dawn of time because even then he would've had to have been made by something. You say things that are so complex and amazing cannot just pop up out of nowhere, and yet by doing that you disprove your own theory! If god is all powerful, how was he created? by a more powerful being? no, because that would disprove god, so did he just pop up out of nowhere? no because if humans can't do that, dieties sure can't. so please enlighten me here.

Last edited by SilentNoise105 (2006-04-21 15:57:39)

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

Of a prophecy thats cryptic and can be interpeted in many different ways. I dont find them telling the exact city He will be born, His mom a virgin, from the house of David that cryptic. He will perform miracles, talk in parables, jews will reject him, his hands and feet will be pierced... doesnt seem too cryptic. They even told of the EXACT day of His public revealment.

It took me a little while, but lets try Deuteronomy 18:18-22

18:18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.   
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.   
18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.   
18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?   
18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I dont think thats a prophecy, its more like some rules. But nice try at finding a single cryptic prophecy that can have many meanings. Is that how your going to prove the ones about Jesus had so many meanings they had to come true sometime?

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-21 16:21:00)

kkolodsick wrote:

Why is it so hard to believe, or at least entertain the though that there is a maker of the earth? 

Creation is real my friends sorry to burst your bubble.

You mean we should just drop everything and take your word from it?

I hope (probably wrongly) that this is not a typical creationist response:

'Creation happened because I said so. I say so because the bible says so.'

Like a lot of rational, reasoning people are going to believe that.

Come on Spark, you know that's now what I meant.

Everyone keeps talking about science vs. observation but at that time it was the cutting edge scientists so who is to say that cutting edge scientists are correct today? 
I have still seen no concrete evidence of evolution.  Please enlighten me.  Is this survival of the fittest or evolution that you guys speak of?

If you actually looked... you'd find a lot.

http://www.illustramedia.com/movies/TPP … w_256k.mov  I think nasa scientists and physicists know more than Carl Sagain.

JaMDuDe wrote:

http://www.illustramedia.com/movies/TPP_preview_256k.mov  I think nasa scientists and physicists know more than Carl Sagain.

I think you don't even know who Carl SAGAN (sorry bout the typo) is... Research?

I've already stated I know how unlikely life is. Once again, however, you are forgetting how BIG space is.

Drake equation? New estimates show that the number of civilizations in our galaxy that can/would be willing to communicate with us at 0.0000008.

Now. How many civilizations are we able to communicate with at the moment, considering we've only been looking for 50 years and th nearest civilization should be about 200 years away?

Also, that movie is making a lot of assumptions.

What if there are life forms that depend on, say, a planet that doesn't shake them to bits? What if they were thankful for their seas of liquid nitrogen and their clouds of swirling ammonia? What if they've EVOLVED to live on a planet without a magnetic field? What if they EVOLVED to live on a planet with no moon? Mars, as far as I can tell, doesn't wobble violently, but I wouldn't call its moons 'large'.

It must be confessed that the Scriptures do not explicitly teach the existence of these distinctions. The Bible does, however, allow for this possibility.

The condition of salvation for adults is personal faith. Infants are incapable of fulfilling this condition. For this reason, many have suggested that there is an age of accountability. By this, it is understood that at a certain time in a person's life he/she becomes aware of personal responsibility for wrong actions. This is not simply a recognition of cause and effects, but of personal accountability and responsibility. This "age of accountability" would probably be different for every individual. In deed, some who are mentally handicapped may never become aware of their own struggle against unrighteousness.

Ill make some questions for you to answer. Spark i dont want you to answer these with quotes from your science-fiction books. Or just say "if we turn the clock back billions of years it would be so simple it could pop out of thin air"

How do u explain the scientists and physicists from nasa who said the chances of earth appearing in OUR galaxy are one/one-trillion stars with only 100 billion stars?

How about the prophecies in the bible with amazing detail? They didnt just have so many meanings they had
to happen some time. Like the birth town of Jesus, He would be born from a virgin, and the EXACT date of His public revealment.(they werent written after his birth)

If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?

Why do we each have individual personalities? What made us evolve so that we would all be different?

How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and society to this day?

Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?

How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses to a living Jesus following His crucifixion?

How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to author one unified message?

What was the first cause? Why did the universe just explode for no reason at all?

If all organisms come from parent organisms, how did the first one get on earth? Scientists have tried and cant make life appear spontaneously.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-21 20:30:21)

wombatman4 wrote:

first off, i'd like to state that i am a very devoted/devout christian and would like to say a few things concerning the existence of God. i dont' think that God's existence is something to be even be questioned. What proof do i have that God exists? I'm living on it. The earth that was created and everything living on it is so complex that man can not even comphrehend it. first off, take the biology of a human being. our bodies are made up of billions of cells, each of them working together to form one being. we have a number of different systems in our body also, respiratory, circulatory, and the digestive system. each of them so complex it has taken man since the beginning of time to come this far in medicine, which is pretty impressive, but there is still so much we don't know about the human body. What does the spleen do? how do we cure cancer? how do we cure the common cold?
     to those of you who believe in the big bang, what proof do you have? how often do things get randomly created in our world? the proof i have of creation some of you may not seem valid. but my proof is the bible. God tells us in the bible that He created the world. who can really argue it? those of you who say the big bang has been proven....how? The bible is refuteable. there are accounts of stout atheists who have spent years trying to disprove the bible, only to be converted to Christianity based on the fact they could not disprove it. read the book "The Case for Christ" this is one of them. to say that there is no God and that the world randomly appeared is as foolish as saying that every building in New York just appeared out of nowhere one day............................................   everything created has a creator

then who created the creator?

JaMDuDe wrote:

It must be confessed that the Scriptures do not explicitly teach the existence of these distinctions. The Bible does, however, allow for this possibility.

The condition of salvation for adults is personal faith. Infants are incapable of fulfilling this condition. For this reason, many have suggested that there is an age of accountability. By this, it is understood that at a certain time in a person's life he/she becomes aware of personal responsibility for wrong actions. This is not simply a recognition of cause and effects, but of personal accountability and responsibility. This "age of accountability" would probably be different for every individual. In deed, some who are mentally handicapped may never become aware of their own struggle against unrighteousness.

Nice copy paste! You didn't even acknowledge it. In the academic world, this is known as plagiarism, and once again you have expertly evaded my challenge to provide the evidence in the bible that supports this claim. For those of you who would like to see the original document, its here, brought to you by the same folks that supply all of JaMDuDe's earthly knowledge.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Ill make some questions for you to answer. Spark i dont want you to answer these with quotes from your science-fiction books. Or just say "if we turn the clock back billions of years it would be so simple it could pop out of thin air"

We've been asking you to stop answering our questions with quotes from the Bible (with the exception of my request, which actually pertains to the bible itself. It's funny that you'll quote the bible for anything ranging from physics to biology, but when asked about the bible itself you just copy and paste responses from websites). At least our sources are based on some kind of science.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "if we turn the clock back billions of years it would be so simple it could pop out of thin air", but I'm assuming you're talking about the big bang. I assure you there was nothing 'simple' about it.

JaMDuDe wrote:

How do u explain the scientists and physicists from nasa who said the chances of earth appearing in OUR galaxy are one/one-trillion stars with only 100 billion stars?

I've gone over this already, and frankly I'm beginning to wonder if you even read what I have to say. Do you understand probabilities? Our galaxy is nothing special, theres nothing unique about it. There are 100 billion others very much like it, and the chances of life starting in any of those is exactly the same according to that video. Face it, even if we assume everything in the video is correct, which it probably isn't, the odds still favor life starting somewhere.

JaMDuDe wrote:

How about the prophecies in the bible with amazing detail? They didnt just have so many meanings they had
to happen some time. Like the birth town of Jesus, He would be born from a virgin, and the EXACT date of His public revealment.(they werent written after his birth)

Source? Evidence? Don't you think its possible someone simply read the date of public revealment and told him about it? You make it sound like the Bible is laying this stuff out in amazing detail, when all I've seen so far is a bunch of vague propehecies that wouldn't be hard to fulfill if the people in question knew about them. Besides which, how do we know that there weren't other parts of the Bible (perhaps parts that contained prophecies that did not come true) that were discarded centuries ago.

JaMDuDe wrote:

If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'living honorably', but if you're referring to humans working together/helping one another etc etc... humans are hardly the only animals that do this. Dogs hunt in packs, dolphins travel in pods, fish school together for mutual protection. Social behaviors are a basic adaptation for thousands of species.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Why do we each have individual personalities? What made us evolve so that we would all be different?

A brain? The ability to learn and adapt? From the moment we are born our environment changes who we are. If you want to talk about the evolution behind being different, if we were all identical it would have only taken one catastrophic event to wipe every one of us out.

JaMDuDe wrote:

How do you explain the fact that a single, relatively uneducated and virtually untraveled man, dead at age 33, radically changed lives and society to this day?

So it was just one man? I thought it was the Bible that changed society to this day. Mohammed changed lives too, does that validate Islam?

JaMDuDe wrote:

Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?

Why? Because people believe it and pass that belief onto others. Christianity is a meme however you choose to look at it. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say 'centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message'. Christianity has been pretty popular almost since its inception. If you want to talk about worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message', you might want to talk to the Jews. I hear they've had problems in the past.

JaMDuDe wrote:

How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses to a living Jesus following His crucifixion?

You can find thousands upon thousands of otherwise educated and intelligent people that would swear they've seen magic. And thats modern day. Of course its not really magic, it's just the power of suggestion combined with the human will to believe. You illustrate the belief part quite well.

JaMDuDe wrote:

How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to author one unified message?

I don't know where you learned your geography, but I think you just proved my point about the state of your education. Where was the Bible written? Were some parts written in South America? Some in Australia? I don't think so. In fact, unless I am gravely mistaken, it was all written in the general area of the Middle East.

JaMDuDe wrote:

What was the first cause? Why did the universe just explode for no reason at all?

Obviously there was a reason, or it wouldn't have happened. You can choose to believe its God if you want, at least at that point you will have accepted that the Genesis myth is not in fact true. If you want a more scientific explanation, go down to your local library and get some books on physics. Stephen Hawking has done some good work.

JaMDuDe wrote:

If all organisms come from parent organisms, how did the first one get on earth? Scientists have tried and cant make life appear spontaneously.

And they've been trying for what? 20-30 years? Give it time. You and Wannabe_tank_whore are both fond of pointing to scientists inability to recreate events, but seem to have no problem with religions inability to recreate their events. God hasn't exactly been very active lately, unless he's just erasing our memories after he acts.

You're very good at asking random question. How about answering some for a change?

So let me ask this.  If God has simply always been, and according to Genesis the estimates of our existence here is only 7-10K years, why did God wait so long to create us?  Did he just get bored one day?

And if he did create everything, what was there before he created it?  Just nothing?

If God created everything, why make the universe, even the parts of it thta we can see with current technology, so big and then only put life on one small planet revolving around a medium size yellow star?

Lastly, here is a brain teaser.  If you go by Genesis the earth was created in 7 days, and God created EVERYTHING including the universe all at one time about 7-10K years ago.  Now here's the teaser.  Even if a star started emitting light, radiation, and the other things that stars emit the minute it was created, how is it that we are seeing stars so far away?  Some of the stars we have seen are so far away that it would take millions of years for it to reach us, even at the speed of light.  That basically means that in order for us to even see them, they would to have been in existence for millions of years at minimum.  An example of this is the star V12, located in in the galaxy NGC 4203, and is about 10.4 million light years away.  In order for us to see it, any light emitting from that star would be at least 10.4 million years old, and since Genesis says that God created everything at one time, including the stars, Geneis' account of the time creation is off a bit.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2006-04-22 08:36:55)