Darkhelmet
cereal killer
+233|6992|the middle of nowhere
Sure you can be "forbidden" to follow Him. But people still do it. And they usually get killed for it. That is faith.
If they have never heard of Him then they still can't get to Heaven. But He wants you to go to Heaven though. He still loves someone even if he is a Buddhist, or a muslim, or a jew. But they won't go to Heaven unless they get saved.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS
Can someone else respond to this please...

I just...

ARRRGHGHHHGHHHHHHHHHH!

Any educated person on this forum, i hope believe the same way I do.

By your logic, over 5 billion people should be condemned to hell.

5 BILLION PEOPLE!

Does this sound like a benevolent, forgiving god? I don't think so. That's why I, as a Christian, think you are WRONG.

Last edited by Spark (2006-04-18 20:00:10)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6908

Spark wrote:

Can someone else respond to this please...

I just...

ARRRGHGHHHGHHHHHHHHHH!

Any educated person on this forum, i hope believe the same way I do.

By your logic, over 5 billion people should be condemned to hell.

5 BILLION PEOPLE!

Does this sound like a benevolent, forgiving god? I don't think so. That's why I, as a Christian, think you are WRONG.
Maybe just maybe, there is only one God that created all of the religions for some reason. 
However, you seem to be picking on the Christians, but what about the Jews, Muslims, etc.  They all believe they are going to their Heaven (not sure where the Muslims think they are going) and that Christians are going to some type of hell. 

Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and that the only way to the Father (God/Heaven) is through a belief in Jesus.  You don't get to Heaven through any type of works as a Christian, just believe.

He is forgiving and benevolent, however he is also a jealous God that only wants us to look to Him, no one else.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

kkolodsick wrote:

Spark wrote:

Can someone else respond to this please...

I just...

ARRRGHGHHHGHHHHHHHHHH!

Any educated person on this forum, i hope believe the same way I do.

By your logic, over 5 billion people should be condemned to hell.

5 BILLION PEOPLE!

Does this sound like a benevolent, forgiving god? I don't think so. That's why I, as a Christian, think you are WRONG.
Maybe just maybe, there is only one God that created all of the religions for some reason. 
However, you seem to be picking on the Christians, but what about the Jews, Muslims, etc.  They all believe they are going to their Heaven (not sure where the Muslims think they are going) and that Christians are going to some type of hell. 

Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and that the only way to the Father (God/Heaven) is through a belief in Jesus.  You don't get to Heaven through any type of works as a Christian, just believe.

He is forgiving and benevolent, however he is also a jealous God that only wants us to look to Him, no one else.
I am picking on this guy due to his lack of reasoned thought and lack of respect for others.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7019
Heres a copy and paste from my bias site, when i link it people seem to get mad.

What actually happens to those who have not heard the gospel of Christ depends upon several factors.


It depends first of all (but not finally) on how they have responded to God's general revelation. In the case of those who have neglected or rejected such general revelation (no doubt the case with the vast majority of those who have never heard of Christ), they're lost, condemned for all eternity to a real hell. But note--they are not condemned for what they haven't heard. They are judged for what they have heard and rejected. In this sense, as R.C. Sproul rightly states, "there are no innocent people in the world."


In the case, however, of the one who has never heard of Christ, yet sincerely worships God as he knows Him, and lives consistently with moral law as he understands it, we do have some grounds (Acts 10 et al) to believe that God may be pleased to grant a further special revelation involving the Gospel of Christ Himself, which one would then, in turn, either accept or reject. Exactly how or when would God arrange for such a further revelation? Might I Peter 3:18-20 or 4:6 somehow correlate with Romans 2:16 here? The Scripture allows many such details to remain hidden, while being unequivocal about the fact that God will judge with perfect justice (Psalm 98:9
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS
I'm a bit confused.

If they accept the 'revelation', in the form of Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu etc. etc., what happens to them?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6885
why should god have a human characteristic of jealousy, that shit sounds so silly to me.  God is some dude sitting on a mighty throne in a cloud looking down on everybody feeling angry and jealousy for those that dont worship him WTF I cant go on that is just childish
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6908

Spark wrote:

I'm a bit confused.

If they accept the 'revelation', in the form of Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu etc. etc., what happens to them?
Sorry my man, no Heaven for them.  Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu etc. etc, are not God/Jesus.

Those who accept the revelation in that form would go to the "paradise" described in their religion.
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6908

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

why should god have a human characteristic of jealousy, that shit sounds so silly to me.  God is some dude sitting on a mighty throne in a cloud looking down on everybody feeling angry and jealousy for those that dont worship him WTF I cant go on that is just childish
Deuteronomy 4:24 
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Deuteronomy 6:15   
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

I didn't make this stuff up.  That's why, for Spark, believers in other "Gods" will be punished by this God.
He created everything and only asks that we look to Him and Him only.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7019

Spark wrote:

|CCCCCDark_Helmet wrote:

Yeah he would. You don't get to heaven by being good or doing good stuff.
Please leave before my desire to shoot you gets too large.

YOU HAVE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THIS, YOU IGNORANT, CONTEMPTOUS PIECE OF SHIT! GOD COULD NOT CARE LESS WHAT RELIGION YOU FOLLOW, AS LONG AS YOU DO GOOD WORKS! WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T HEARD OF CHRIST? WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FORBIDDEN TO FOLLOW CHRIST? THEY GO TO HELL TOO? WHY? LUCK? SOME GOD THAT IS.

Thankyou. Rant over.
1st, are all religions created by God?
2nd, why would all religions lead to Heaven?
3rd, define good works from God's perspective.
4th, if you are a Christian, read the Bible.
5th, who are you do judge God for His actions.
Jibbles
Rifle Expert
+56|6871|Mexifornia, USA
There's no reason to argue. People are entitled to their beliefs, whether they are wrong or right, "saved" or "not saved".
ATC
Member
+58|6986|...

Spark wrote:

Can someone else respond to this please...

I just...

ARRRGHGHHHGHHHHHHHHHH!

Any educated person on this forum, i hope believe the same way I do.

By your logic, over 5 billion people should be condemned to hell.

5 BILLION PEOPLE!

Does this sound like a benevolent, forgiving god? I don't think so. That's why I, as a Christian, think you are WRONG.
I am a Christian. And let me tell you!!!! YOU ARE SURE NOT ACTING LIKE ONE.^^^^^^^^
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7019
its 4 billion people
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6977|California
Let The Erk setle this once and for all....

We shall ALL see who is right in the end. Game, set, match. I don't care what you believe in (well, I kind of do, but that's not relevant to the point), we are all going to get to experience whatever happens when we die some day.
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6908

Erkut.hv wrote:

Let The Erk setle this once and for all....

We shall ALL see who is right in the end. Game, set, match. I don't care what you believe in (well, I kind of do, but that's not relevant to the point), we are all going to get to experience whatever happens when we die some day.
Who is The Erk?

Other than that, well said, nothing to add.
XstrangerdangerX
conversation is combat
+36|6871|Tasmania

Spark wrote:

|CCCCCDark_Helmet wrote:

Yeah he would. You don't get to heaven by being good or doing good stuff.
Please leave before my desire to shoot you gets too large.

YOU HAVE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THIS, YOU IGNORANT, CONTEMPTOUS PIECE OF SHIT! GOD COULD NOT CARE LESS WHAT RELIGION YOU FOLLOW, AS LONG AS YOU DO GOOD WORKS! WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T HEARD OF CHRIST? WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FORBIDDEN TO FOLLOW CHRIST? THEY GO TO HELL TOO? WHY? LUCK? SOME GOD THAT IS.

Thankyou. Rant over.
Unless you were Lutheran. Or a seventh day adventist. Your view of God's acceptance is puerile and according to many branches of religion, catastrophically incorrect.

Anyway people, I think your belief makes you weak.

God is a crutch, a relic from our savage past. We fear death, we fear being alone, worst of all we are frightened to our core that our lives, our actions, our very existence is meaningless.

So what did we do when we were cavemen and we started to wonder why the world was, who we are, what is our purpose? We created a creator.

Complex thoughts being beyond us we build a God into a burning bush and from there every facet of our life is tainted by this prejudiced notion of a higher being, a higher order to things. Our lives are linear, they go from start to finish, so even by medieval times the notion that things simply are was anathema to our perspective. We cannot picture a story without a beginning, and just as much we cannot picture something being made without an intelligence behind it.

You are meaningless, your existence has no purpose. 'Humanity is a successful virus clinging to the face of a speck of brown mud, suspended in infinite nothingness'. And that's not at all a bad thing.

Cast off this superstition, take some responsibility for your actions. Take some responsibility for your fucking life! Think of this; a child is born into a religious family, it is taught from birth that God exists (by whatever name) and that eternal peace waits if it just toes the line/tithes its salary/ goes to church. Now take that same child at birth and put him into a family that is not religious. Is he going to live the same life? Isn't the concept of a God and the idea of religion simply something inculcated into our children, and never giving them any other option that to believe? I know of no concept more pervasive, more absolute in its requirements of your faith than that of religion. Take away that training, take away that influence and you have an individual who through rational thought can make decisions. Too many people arguing for the existence of God are coming from a standpoint that can honestly and without malice be described as brainwashing. You may think you have excercised your free will, but your very decisions have in a way been pre-determined by your upbringing and you cannot surely deny that?

So give me your watchmaker arguments, enlighten me with your philosophies. Tell me how you believe the absence of a God means there is no right or wrong, preach to me your absolutes.  I have never yet seen an argument over God end in a satisfactory resolution. You are arguing from a standpoint of faith, I from reason.

Shed your chains, live your life without fear of this threatening parental figure. Take a deep breath and caste aside the wager that maybe there is a God and therefore you should play it safe. Innovate, fuck (guys girls who cares), live!

Last edited by XstrangerdangerX (2006-04-19 08:48:45)

Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6936|San Francisco
Alrighty, another settling point to hopefully round this thread back to the OP...

Anyone is allowed to believe in anything they want, as LONG as it is not forced onto others or used as a mass organizational rally point to serve another form of agenda...for instance, the christian coalition and catholic groups paying off and lobbying for a ban on all abortion, since they feel it is wrong.  Or the concept of the christian coalition itself working as a political machine to back the right wing of our government.

Believe, but enact the freedom of religion and the freedoms FROM religion at the same time...at least in the U.S.  Getting politics out of the way, the rest of it is just encouraged philosophic discussion to hopefully get people to think more.
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6977|California

kkolodsick wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

Let The Erk setle this once and for all....

We shall ALL see who is right in the end. Game, set, match. I don't care what you believe in (well, I kind of do, but that's not relevant to the point), we are all going to get to experience whatever happens when we die some day.
Who is The Erk?

Other than that, well said, nothing to add.
Erkut.hv wrote......

"the Erk" "Erkut"

-so sayeth the Erk
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7019

Marconius wrote:

Alrighty, another settling point to hopefully round this thread back to the OP...

Anyone is allowed to believe in anything they want, as LONG as it is not forced onto others or used as a mass organizational rally point to serve another form of agenda...for instance, the christian coalition and catholic groups paying off and lobbying for a ban on all abortion, since they feel it is wrong.  Or the concept of the christian coalition itself working as a political machine to back the right wing of our government.

Believe, but enact the freedom of religion and the freedoms FROM religion at the same time...at least in the U.S.  Getting politics out of the way, the rest of it is just encouraged philosophic discussion to hopefully get people to think more.
What about the parades/protests for illegal mexicans?

What about protests against the war?

Will you hold these and others like these to the same standards as you hold Christians?  Or is it still going to be the intolerance you've shown before?  "I will only tolerate a Christian if..."
herrr_smity
Member
+156|6870|space command ur anus
wow 24 pages and still going.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7019

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

Unless you were Lutheran. Or a seventh day adventist. Your view of God's acceptance is puerile and according to many branches of religion, catastrophically incorrect.
Agreed.

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

Anyway people, I think your belief makes you weak.

God is a crutch, a relic from our savage past. We fear death, we fear being alone, worst of all we are frightened to our core that our lives, our actions, our very existence is meaningless.
Belief?  What about non-belief?  Does that make you weak too?  How is it compared to other philosophies?  The same savage past that had cannibalism, prostitution, wars, murders, rapes, homosexual behavior, etc?  What's different today?

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

So what did we do when we were cavemen and we started to wonder why the world was, who we are, what is our purpose? We created a creator.

Complex thoughts being beyond us we build a God into a burning bush and from there every facet of our life is tainted by this prejudiced notion of a higher being, a higher order to things. Our lives are linear, they go from start to finish, so even by medieval times the notion that things simply are was anathema to our perspective. We cannot picture a story without a beginning, and just as much we cannot picture something being made without an intelligence behind it.

You are meaningless, your existence has no purpose. 'Humanity is a successful virus clinging to the face of a speck of brown mud, suspended in infinite nothingness'. And that's not at all a bad thing.
No purpose whatsoever and that's not a bad thing.  Please elaborate.

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

Cast off this superstition, take some responsibility for your actions. Take some responsibility for your fucking life! Think of this; a child is born into a religious family, it is taught from birth that God exists (by whatever name) and that eternal peace waits if it just toes the line/tithes its salary/ goes to church. Now take that same child at birth and put him into a family that is not religious. Is he going to live the same life? Isn't the concept of a God and the idea of religion simply something inculcated into our children, and never giving them any other option that to believe? I know of no concept more pervasive, more absolute in its requirements of your faith than that of religion. Take away that training, take away that influence and you have an individual who through rational thought can make decisions. Too many people arguing for the existence of God are coming from a standpoint that can honestly and without malice be described as brainwashing. You may think you have excercised your free will, but your very decisions have in a way been pre-determined by your upbringing and you cannot surely deny that?
Did you know Darwin was not a trained scientist?  Yet people cling to his 'observations' or lack there of.  At what point does a lie become truth?  Read Marconius' sig.

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

So give me your watchmaker arguments, enlighten me with your philosophies. Tell me how you believe the absence of a God means there is no right or wrong, preach to me your absolutes.  I have never yet seen an argument over God end in a satisfactory resolution. You are arguing from a standpoint of faith, I from reason.

Shed your chains, live your life without fear of this threatening parental figure. Take a deep breath and caste aside the wager that maybe there is a God and therefore you should play it safe. Innovate, fuck (guys girls who cares), live!
Can a non-purposed life be held accountable for his/her actions? 

What about the chains of sin?
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6936|San Francisco
Wrong thread, tank_whore.  Stay on topic.  Note what I said about the major christian groups advancing a political agenda constantly (even if other christians say otherwise, the fact still remains that they are a pretty big political constituency).  This tends to break down the separation of church and State, or blur the line between the two.  My political point was religious agendas, and you are just bringing up irrelevant topics.

So who else here has ever doubted their faith?
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6908

Marconius wrote:

Wrong thread, tank_whore.  Stay on topic.  Note what I said about the major christian groups advancing a political agenda constantly (even if other christians say otherwise, the fact still remains that they are a pretty big political constituency).  This tends to break down the separation of church and State, or blur the line between the two.  My political point was religious agendas, and you are just bringing up irrelevant topics.

So who else here has ever doubted their faith?
People always bring up the separation of church and state and it bugs me a bit.  Its freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.  Meaning the government will require any one religion for the country.  I hazard a guess that there are more than one group of Muslims/Jews etc that lobby.  Why is that anything different than a Christian group trying to advance their cause/beliefs.

People seem to love to bash Christians and give a free pass to other religious groups that are doing the same thing, why is that?
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7019

Marconius wrote:

Wrong thread, tank_whore.  Stay on topic.  Note what I said about the major christian groups advancing a political agenda constantly (even if other christians say otherwise, the fact still remains that they are a pretty big political constituency).  This tends to break down the separation of church and State, or blur the line between the two.  My political point was religious agendas, and you are just bringing up irrelevant topics.

So who else here has ever doubted their faith?
You said, "Anyone is allowed to believe in anything they want, as LONG as it is not forced onto others or used as a mass organizational rally point to serve another form of agenda".

Again, you make blanket statments towards Christians yet fail to berate other groups that your blanket statement covers.  But I posed the question, "Will you hold these and others like these to the same standards as you hold Christians?"  And again you fail to answer it because I called you on your intolerance.
ridetohell
Member
+10|6836

afewje wrote:

Havent u ever doubted your faith? with science proving more and more things like the big bang theory and finding more and more evidence its hard not to quesiton your faith. What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity. So iunno i would like to know what you guys think. It would be a shame for all the people in the world to have a crummy life then noting forever. makes you think...
Hay i was just wondering whats the point of ur post???

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