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2006-04-17 17:38:11
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:

Spark wrote:

DRW-Shadow wrote:


You are correct it is only a theory. However it is backed up with far more logic and fact based evidence than what any religion can provide.

The problem with religion is it doesn't have to be proven. It just needs to be believed in. The problem with the "Big Bang Theory" is that much like the universe it is expanding with every new bit of information we get.  So either you believe in something you can never prove or you can believe in something that has based facts but is always changing. Regardless in the end does it really matter?
Did you know that the Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest?

Shows you why a lot of RELIGIOUS people still believe it anyway.
True but could god have created the big bang?
Uh. YES.

That's why I said it.

That's why I believe it (Old earth creationist/evolutionist here)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 17:42:09
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6936|San Francisco
This is where the argument just gets circular.  Scientific facts come up and can cause some peoples' faith to falter or come into doubt, and then people will just try to attribute a god into the step before the scientific evidence.  It holds the same water as me saying that The Flying Spaghetti Monster, in all of his Noodly Glory just snapped his appendages one day and created the Big Bang, or is actually out there right now pushing all of the galaxies apart to make it look like there was a Big Bang.

The point is you can argue about how it happened all you want, but it will still come down to the scientific process uncovering the truth while creationists and the like are still trying to adapt the findings to their own beliefs.
2006-04-17 18:34:09
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

Marconius wrote:

This is where the argument just gets circular.  Scientific facts come up and can cause some peoples' faith to falter or come into doubt, and then people will just try to attribute a god into the step before the scientific evidence.  It holds the same water as me saying that The Flying Spaghetti Monster, in all of his Noodly Glory just snapped his appendages one day and created the Big Bang, or is actually out there right now pushing all of the galaxies apart to make it look like there was a Big Bang.

The point is you can argue about how it happened all you want, but it will still come down to the scientific process uncovering the truth while creationists and the like are still trying to adapt the findings to their own beliefs.
Hmmm...

I think you've misunderstood me.

God *might've* set the wheels in motion then left.

That's it.

We have no scientific explanation FOR the Big Bang itself.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 19:04:17
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6936|San Francisco
Ok, I agree with you there.  No proof as of yet, but I myself enjoy the pre-Chaos theories.
2006-04-17 19:21:59
TngoWsky
Member
+5|6827|MS
Question: If you "non-believers" believe so much that there is not a God, then why do you try so hard to prove that there is no God? Is it because you want to believe in God and you are just waiting on proof that He does exist? Well, if so, then you'll get your proof when you die.
2006-04-17 19:40:23
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

TngoWsky wrote:

Question: If you "non-believers" believe so much that there is not a God, then why do you try so hard to prove that there is no God? Is it because you want to believe in God and you are just waiting on proof that He does exist? Well, if so, then you'll get your proof when you die.
Oh.

So you've died. Can you tell us all about it then? No? Then why do you make such a incredibly bold assertion?

Can you point out the people here who do not think God exists. And can you show me WHY they aren't entitled to believe that without being subjected to ruthless questioning. We don't ask 'Why do you believe in God? What proof do you have?' (or at least, I don't)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 19:46:15
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6936|San Francisco
my answer:  simple Descartesian logic.  Faith in something unprovable either way just seems to be a lax of thought and reason...to actively pursue truth means there is no wasted thought.

Another way to look at it is that it's not wrong to believe in a god or not.  It's just when people latch onto an organized idea that god wants you to live your life in a predetermined way, as interpreted by clandestine organizations and 'religious leaders,' that it really seems to become dangerous.  Actively trying to prove that god doesn't exist forces a balance between those that actively pursue getting people into their own interpretations of 'god.'  Providing a spectrum like that allows people to pick and choose and think for themselves, does it not?  The goal is to make people think; philosophize about it, rather than just accept it all outright and let others make decisions for them.
2006-04-17 21:25:01
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6956|US
Interesting, although I would not call faith "wasted thought."  I agree with your second point.
2006-04-17 21:30:28
Brasso
member
+1,549|6872

why do people always have to bring religion up???
"people in ny have a general idea of how to drive. one of the pedals goes forward the other one prevents you from dying"
2006-04-17 22:29:56
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

haffeysucks wrote:

why do people always have to bring religion up???
Why do you have to look at it? What's your problem? Why don't you just go away and leave us to talk about it?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-18 10:24:54
DRW-Shadow
Member
+-2|6834

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:

Spark wrote:

DRW-Shadow wrote:


You are correct it is only a theory. However it is backed up with far more logic and fact based evidence than what any religion can provide.

The problem with religion is it doesn't have to be proven. It just needs to be believed in. The problem with the "Big Bang Theory" is that much like the universe it is expanding with every new bit of information we get.  So either you believe in something you can never prove or you can believe in something that has based facts but is always changing. Regardless in the end does it really matter?
Did you know that the Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest?

Shows you why a lot of RELIGIOUS people still believe it anyway.
True but could god have created the big bang?
Spark, I did know that it was first proposed by a priest......we can't all be perfect. j/k
But I'm not sure how that shows why "a lot of RELIGIOUS people believe it anyway".

LibSlayer, to argue that it could not be created by "god" would be illogical IMHO. I believe that anything is possible although something’s highly improbable never impossible. No my argument would be to prove that the god that is depicted through the bible is the one that exists and is the one that created us and the Earth. To be honest it's the word of man that made me a non believer.
2006-04-18 15:11:42
SilentNoise105
Member
+5|6838

haffeysucks wrote:

why do people always have to bring religion up???
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT RELIGION! Why would you come into this topic and ask that? Its apparent that you can read, I mean you read our posts, and yet you couldn't come to the conclusion that this thread was about religious ideas? Come on.

TngoWsky wrote:

Question: If you "non-believers" believe so much that there is not a God, then why do you try so hard to prove that there is no God? Is it because you want to believe in God and you are just waiting on proof that He does exist? Well, if so, then you'll get your proof when you die.
Why do you try so hard to prove god exists? Is it because you actually know he doesn't but in order to give your meaningless life some real meaning you have to throw in some higher purpose where there is none?

The reason I'm arguing here is because of the people who pity people because they disagree with their religoius beliefs. I'm an athiest, and I've taken a lot of crap and senseless "sympathy" from people because of it. Like your statement there, your probably like a lot of people who just blindly follow the leader and believe in god. You probably think that your right and that everyone else is ignorant because they don't agree with what you think. If your not like that fine, but its that type of people I hate. I can understand why someone would believe in god. Faith is a very important thing. Sometimes its the only thing keeping people going, but when you go out of your way to say stupid stuff like "Oh I feel sorry for you because you don't believe. I'll pray for you." and "God exists if you all can't see that your ignorant." it bothers me. Like I said, I personally don't believe in god, but I do understand why people need faith and hope, I just don't like it when they act like it makes others inferior.
2006-04-18 15:16:46
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6885

TngoWsky wrote:

Question: If you "non-believers" believe so much that there is not a God, then why do you try so hard to prove that there is no God? Is it because you want to believe in God and you are just waiting on proof that He does exist? Well, if so, then you'll get your proof when you die.
I choose to fill my life with tangible, meaningful things that allow to me to succeed.  I dont waste my time wondering whether god exists or where Im going after I do.  Life is WAY too short and way too fragile for me to spend it trying to firgure out what happens next.  I am more concerned with the now and not with the why.  Im here already, no point in worrying about something that does not exist to me here right now.  I dont believe god exist, and I dont care either.
2006-04-18 15:21:29
Daysniper
Member
+42|6877

TngoWsky wrote:

Question: If you "non-believers" believe so much that there is not a God, then why do you try so hard to prove that there is no God? Is it because you want to believe in God and you are just waiting on proof that He does exist? Well, if so, then you'll get your proof when you die.
and if we don't?...
2006-04-18 16:50:18
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7013|PNW

Daysniper wrote:

TngoWsky wrote:

Question: If you "non-believers" believe so much that there is not a God, then why do you try so hard to prove that there is no God? Is it because you want to believe in God and you are just waiting on proof that He does exist? Well, if so, then you'll get your proof when you die.
and if we don't?...
If you don't? Then what does any of it matter anyway? Believe what you want.

Although I'm Christian, I don't believe in the whole "everyone who doesn't go to a church is damned" principle that seems to dominate many fellow Christian minds. If God wanted absolute dominion in our lives, we would all be under Heaven's direct governorship.
2006-04-18 17:10:23
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6885
https://myspace-859.vo.llnwd.net/00312/95/85/312315859_m.jpg
2006-04-18 17:37:12
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

DRW-Shadow wrote:

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:

Spark wrote:


Did you know that the Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest?

Shows you why a lot of RELIGIOUS people still believe it anyway.
True but could god have created the big bang?
Spark, I did know that it was first proposed by a priest......we can't all be perfect. j/k
But I'm not sure how that shows why "a lot of RELIGIOUS people believe it anyway".

LibSlayer, to argue that it could not be created by "god" would be illogical IMHO. I believe that anything is possible although something’s highly improbable never impossible. No my argument would be to prove that the god that is depicted through the bible is the one that exists and is the one that created us and the Earth. To be honest it's the word of man that made me a non believer.
It was proposed by Georges Lemaître in 1935, as an attempt to blend scripture and science.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-18 18:41:17
TngoWsky
Member
+5|6827|MS
I never said that God does exist. I'm not trying to force religion on any of you. As I stated in another post on this same topic, religion is based on Faith. Either you believe or you don't. We can share what we know and you have to decide for yourself if that is what you want to believe. I don't go thru each day wondering if there is a God or not. I just believe that He does. Why? Because that is what I was taught from the Bible and that is what I chose to believe. I don't dispise anyone for not believing in God. To each his own. Yeah I'm supposed to preach the Gospel to everyone, but I'm not that devoted. If someone wants to hear about and ask me, I will point them in a better direction than talking to me. I know I'm a sinner and have accepted that. I have also accepted that Jesus died on the cross for my sins , but I don't use that for any advantage. Whether there really is a God.....I dunno. I just believe that there is. So, whats wrong with believing in something good after death? And to the statement I made above, "you will find out when you die". What I meant by that was exactly that. If there is a God, then you will know. If not, then it will not matter any way. Right? So why the fussing about whether there is or isn't? It's all about faith. Either you believe or you don't. We can't force yo to believe. It's just like trying to make a horse eat meat. If he wants it, then he will eat it. Bad analogy but it makes its point. Good luck with your discussion.

Last edited by TngoWsky (2006-04-18 18:43:10)

2006-04-18 19:12:19
SilentNoise105
Member
+5|6838
Okay, sorry TngoWsky that I took your statement out of proportion. Things like what you have said have meant otherwise on some occassions, which is why I put down what I did. Also thank you for being one of the few who can actually put some understanding into this. I don't expect anyone to change how they feel religously, but I wish we all could try and empathize a little more with eachother.
2006-04-18 19:16:33
Darkhelmet
cereal killer
+233|6992|the middle of nowhere

Marconius wrote:

I believe in science...things that can be actively tested and measured and proven.  I've no need for faith in something that cannot be proven to or to not exist.
That's the point. You have to have FAITH.
2006-04-18 19:20:45
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

|CCCCCDark_Helmet wrote:

Marconius wrote:

I believe in science...things that can be actively tested and measured and proven.  I've no need for faith in something that cannot be proven to or to not exist.
That's the point. You have to have FAITH.
Faith in WHAT, though?

If I don't think God exists, is that an automatic go-to-hell card?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-18 19:24:30
Darkhelmet
cereal killer
+233|6992|the middle of nowhere
Uhhhhh. Yeah that's pretty much it.
2006-04-18 19:31:35
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

|CCCCCDark_Helmet wrote:

Uhhhhh. Yeah that's pretty much it.
That, I'm afraid, shows

1. Pure ignorance.

2. Pure contempt for other religions

3. Pure lack of any thought.

So a man who is a Buddhist, for example, goes straight to hell, despit the fact he devotes his life to others and gives every drop and more to those in more need?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-18 19:37:56
Darkhelmet
cereal killer
+233|6992|the middle of nowhere
Yeah he would. You don't get to heaven by being good or doing good stuff.
2006-04-18 19:46:27
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6916|Canberra, AUS

|CCCCCDark_Helmet wrote:

Yeah he would. You don't get to heaven by being good or doing good stuff.
Please leave before my desire to shoot you gets too large.

YOU HAVE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THIS, YOU IGNORANT, CONTEMPTOUS PIECE OF SHIT! GOD COULD NOT CARE LESS WHAT RELIGION YOU FOLLOW, AS LONG AS YOU DO GOOD WORKS! WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T HEARD OF CHRIST? WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE FORBIDDEN TO FOLLOW CHRIST? THEY GO TO HELL TOO? WHY? LUCK? SOME GOD THAT IS.

Thankyou. Rant over.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman

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