wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778

Marconius wrote:

I believe in science...things that can be actively tested and measured and proven.  I've no need for faith in something that cannot be proven to or to not exist.  I also don't need to follow strict rules and dogma...I choose to live my life as I and common sense sees fit, and I believe that there is no afterlife.  The concept of heaven was created to enforce the dogmatic rules of the religions, to give justification to the control and oppression by religious leaders.  It is used for hope as well, but the main gist of it is with moral obligation/justification.

I believe that when you die, that's it.  No thought, no experience, no feeling, the end.  That's why you live your life to the fullest and make the most of it, rather than live it with expectations of something better down the road.
I believe science has its place too.  But many things go unexplained in science.  If out of nothing, nothing comes, where did earth come from?  If energy neither created nor destroyed explain how this world came about.  And remember that science is about theories.  Read the quote below.

"In the end, the goal of science is to determine what is most probably true. There is no certainty.

If experiments can be reproduced, we help solidify an assumption and say it is provable. Provability is just making an assumption or hypothesis crisper and clearer. It doesn't so much create a truth out of the void, but knocks of chunks of doubt and contradiction. This view is used outside the classically determined realm of science as well.

For instance, it's not that people believe in God or an afterlife because they are ignoring what science has proven. They believe because, for them, it is what is most probably true. Why does the evidence that makes conclusions clear need to be provable?

If I experience an indescribably intimate feeling every time I'm with the girl of my dreams, why is my conclusion that I love her any less valid than a scientific query? When something is inherently clear, concluding it is probably true just naturally follows."

Do you love anybody, Marconius?  Please measure love.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778

Marconius wrote:

God is the explanation that people use when they can't explain something, and is constantly used when they have no care to further try to explain something.  God is the death of free thought.
That is the explanation of why the people that don't believe in God attempt to justify their stance.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6701

afewje wrote:

i have mixed feelings about this situation but i did find this very intresting article and read it. what they say is very compelling http://www.everystudent.com/wires/Godreal.html see for ur self and if it changes ur view on this
"Everystudent.com exploring questions about life and god"

You'll forgive my skepticism, but I prefer to get my information from less biased sources. For a more scientific look at the Intelligent design debate, I would recommend going to your local library and getting a few books. However I realize this isn't going to happen, so I looked up some web articles:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB … 20MainPage
-talks about the origins of life in general terms.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB … %20Science
-Same as the above

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html
-slightly biased against intelligent design, but provides some decent scientific evidence.

It should be noted that the discovery institute is well respected in scientific circles.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Actually, you entire life is based on faith.  You have faith that the chair you're sitting on will hold you.  You have faith that the dollar in your pocket will mean something when you try to use it.  And yes the list can go on and on.
My faith in gravity is very well placed, as it has never failed me. Our communal faith in currency is a little more dubious, as one can see by looking at any major currency crash (such as Germany after World War 1). Faith in God, however, is faith based on essentially nothing. There is absolutely no proof that God or any other supernatural entity exists, though my local clergy keep insisting there is.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Where has it been proven that the earth was never completely covered in water.   There are sea shells in the mountains of india.  The explanation given in my oceanography book is that the mountain rose out of the sea at one point.  Yet to this day that has never occured again.  Figure the odds on that one and get back to me.
The time it takes for a mountain to rise out of the sea, barring any Godly interference, is measured in geologic time. Meaning, it could take millions of years for it to happen, and thus it doesnt really mean alot that it hasnt happened in human history. The fossil remains in the mountain could have been left there when the evolutionary predecessors to humans were still invertebrates. I would also note that there is not enough water in liquid, ice and vapor form combined to flood the entire earth as it exists today. (Thats if you bar water arriving on earth from off planet, then leaving again once the flood abated. Of course, God could do it if he felt like it (and if he exists) but I doubt it).
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778

Skruples wrote:

afewje wrote:

i have mixed feelings about this situation but i did find this very intresting article and read it. what they say is very compelling http://www.everystudent.com/wires/Godreal.html see for ur self and if it changes ur view on this
"Everystudent.com exploring questions about life and god"

You'll forgive my skepticism, but I prefer to get my information from less biased sources. For a more scientific look at the Intelligent design debate, I would recommend going to your local library and getting a few books. However I realize this isn't going to happen, so I looked up some web articles:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB … 20MainPage
-talks about the origins of life in general terms.

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB … %20Science
-Same as the above

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html
-slightly biased against intelligent design, but provides some decent scientific evidence.

It should be noted that the discovery institute is well respected in scientific circles.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Actually, you entire life is based on faith.  You have faith that the chair you're sitting on will hold you.  You have faith that the dollar in your pocket will mean something when you try to use it.  And yes the list can go on and on.
My faith in gravity is very well placed, as it has never failed me. Our communal faith in currency is a little more dubious, as one can see by looking at any major currency crash (such as Germany after World War 1). Faith in God, however, is faith based on essentially nothing. There is absolutely no proof that God or any other supernatural entity exists, though my local clergy keep insisting there is.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Where has it been proven that the earth was never completely covered in water.   There are sea shells in the mountains of india.  The explanation given in my oceanography book is that the mountain rose out of the sea at one point.  Yet to this day that has never occured again.  Figure the odds on that one and get back to me.
The time it takes for a mountain to rise out of the sea, barring any Godly interference, is measured in geologic time. Meaning, it could take millions of years for it to happen, and thus it doesnt really mean alot that it hasnt happened in human history. The fossil remains in the mountain could have been left there when the evolutionary predecessors to humans were still invertebrates. I would also note that there is not enough water in liquid, ice and vapor form combined to flood the entire earth as it exists today. (Thats if you bar water arriving on earth from off planet, then leaving again once the flood abated. Of course, God could do it if he felt like it (and if he exists) but I doubt it).
Actually there is:
"There is enough water in the oceans so that, if all the surface features of the earth were evened out, water would cover the earth to a depth of 2.7 km (1.7 miles). This is not enough to cover mountains the height of Everest, but it shows that the pre-Flood mountains could have been several kilometers high and still be covered."
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6701

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

I believe science has its place too.  But many things go unexplained in science.  If out of nothing, nothing comes, where did earth come from?  If energy neither created nor destroyed explain how this world came about.  And remember that science is about theories.
I believe you are referring to the laws of thermodynamics, specifically the first law: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.

When the Big Bang is looked at from this perspective, it appears that it violates the laws of thermodynamics. After all, at first there was nothing, and then there was a whole lot of something, and it apparently came from nowhere. The explanations to counter this argument are incredibely complex, and filled with high level physics, so I will not go into it here. Suffice it to say, I still believe the incredibely complex theories more than I believe "God did it".

If you want to learn more about it, I suggest (again) going to your local library and picking up a book dedicated to the subject. Stephen Hawking has done some very interesting work, but if I try and read it for longer than 5 minutes at a time I pass out.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

If I experience an indescribably intimate feeling every time I'm with the girl of my dreams, why is my conclusion that I love her any less valid than a scientific query? When something is inherently clear, concluding it is probably true just naturally follows."

Do you love anybody, Marconius?  Please measure love.
While I am not Marconius, I thought I'd answer this anyway. While love is certainly not easily explained, if looked at from an evolutionary perspective one can see why something like 'love' might have come about naturally. Many animal species are dependant on their parents for survival for a period after birth. If parents didnt care for their young, the species would go extinct in the space of a few generations at most. Therefore, its not suprising that some kind of attachment to ones own offspring occurs. Similarly, some animal species (most notably humans, though the social structure of modern human society makes this somewhat obsolete) are dependant on their mate for survival in the same way newborns are. Many bird parents will split tasks, for example the mother will sit on the eggs to ensure the best chances of survival, while the male hunts/forages for food for them both; if the male just impregnated the female and left, it is likely that both the female and offspring would both die. Thus, it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that some sort of neurochemical 'bond' would take place.

However, I would also point out that just because a scientific explenation for love (however tentative) exists, it does not make it any less fantastic.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Actually there is:
"There is enough water in the oceans so that, if all the surface features of the earth were evened out, water would cover the earth to a depth of 2.7 km (1.7 miles). This is not enough to cover mountains the height of Everest, but it shows that the pre-Flood mountains could have been several kilometers high and still be covered."
If you reread my original quote, you will see

Skruples wrote:

I would also note that there is not enough water in liquid, ice and vapor form combined to flood the entire earth as it exists today.
However, even if we disregarding that, there are several problems with your quote, mainly that the surfaces of the Earth are not evened out. The oceans cover most of the Earth's surface, and on average are much deeper than the land surfaces are high. (In other words, averaging the surface of the Earth doesnt mean a damn thing). Furthermore, the Noah story (which I believe you are referring to with this talk of global flooding) takes place in the recent past (geologically speaking) when the Earth's surfaces were definitely
not evened out, and so my original point stands: There is not enough water on Earth to flood every land mass.

A source for your quote would also be good.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6715|US
I am a practicing Christian (protestant with no denominational affiliation).  I really do not see much science that disproves God's existance.  Some of the more interesting science I have come across seems to suggest "inteligent design."
 
The Big Bang: small pieces of matter and antimatter collide to produce the current universe (after several billion years).  Where did the matter and antimatter come from?  How is it that the universe seems to have become MORE organized?  This goes against entropy, does it not?  If matter and energy are conserved, where was it before the Big Bang?  I guess you could argue a multiverse collision, but, then, where did those other dimensions come from?  Science still has a great deal to prove.  I hope it does, in my opinion it will point more toward an "inteligence" than away from one.

Evolution has certain points that I agree with, but considder the probability of the current world occuring.  How did we evolve into more complex beings? (entropy again).  Evolution, however, is not a God disproving theory anyway...just interesting.

While I do not claim to be a scientific expert, I think I understand most of these concepts well enough...correct me if I am wrong on any of these points.

God seems to be a qualitative being.  It is hard to measure something infinite.  I take it on faith and from experiences to which I can find no finite, scientific explanation.
eusgen
Nugget
+402|6793|Jupiter
Think about science, it says that matter can not be CREATED or destroyed, so where does everything come from?.. HOW in the f*ck is there a universe? Something has to come from somewhere, i mean, when you think about science, there shouldnt be anything, a blank space of nothing... NO!, not even a black space, just nothing!... how is there an earth? God must have created all of this, but the big question is... Where did god come from?.. Something has to come from SOMEWHERE, this concept will spin your thoughts to its full extent and make you go to the edge of crazy.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6701

RAIMIUS wrote:

The Big Bang: small pieces of matter and antimatter collide to produce the current universe (after several billion years).  Where did the matter and antimatter come from?  How is it that the universe seems to have become MORE organized?  This goes against entropy, does it not?  If matter and energy are conserved, where was it before the Big Bang?  I guess you could argue a multiverse collision, but, then, where did those other dimensions come from?  Science still has a great deal to prove.  I hope it does, in my opinion it will point more toward an "inteligence" than away from one.
While the laws of thermodynamics are pretty concrete as far as humanity is concerned, it does not apply the same way to the universe as a whole. Zero Point Energy (not the same as the zero point gun from half life 2) contradicts the first law of thermodynamics, inasmuch as energy is created out of nothing. (fun fact: Zero point energy is theorized to be directly related to inertia.) The arguments regarding the Big Bang and the first law have to do with the curvature of space-time, however I dont fully understand that material and couldn't explain it if I did. I would suggest getting a book from Stephen Hawking if you are interested.

RAIMIUS wrote:

Evolution has certain points that I agree with, but considder the probability of the current world occuring.  How did we evolve into more complex beings? (entropy again).  Evolution, however, is not a God disproving theory anyway...just interesting.
I'm not sure what you mean by the probability of the current world occuring, but I believe you are referring to the Intelligent Design argument that life on Earth would not exist if any number of variables were different. While this is true, it has no bearing on our current universe. The fact is that the universe happened, and life grew into the system that was already in place, and thus it is meaningless to look at both the universe and life in retrospect.

This site, which I linked earlier in this thread, explains this in more detail. This particular passage pertains directly to what I was talking about:
Every shuffle of a deck of cards leads to a 52-card sequence that has low a priori probability, but has unit probability once the cards are all on the table. Similarly, the "fine-tuning" of the constants of physics, said to be so unlikely, could very well have been random; we just happen to be in the universe that turned up in that particular deal of the cards.
Simplified: if you shuffle a deck of cards and deal, the chances of that particular sequence of cards occuring is very low. But after you shuffle, the chances of that sequence are 100%, because it has already happened. Similarly, the chances of the universe having the specific set of variables that make life possible is low (as opposed to any number of other possible universes), but the fact is it does exist, and so the chances of it happening are 100% as far as we (life in general) are concerned.

The second law of thermodynamics states, basically, that the energy in a system must remain even or decrease with time. (or that entropy must increase with time, which is essentially the same thing). Intelligent Design advocates have used this to try and disprove evolution, however their arguments are, again, flawed. The analogy I have seen used is that a building will not magically erect itself if all the materials required for its construction are thrown together. Similarly, a living cell will not assemble if all the chemicals are put in one place. This is true to a point, however life is not random, nor did it come about randomly according to most scientific theory. Life only exists because it is self perpetuating, and so the very first organism (in its most simplistic form) only led to life because it somehow created a copy of itself that was capable of creating copies of itself (a 'child' capable of having children, if you will).

As for the increasing complexity of life that has, over millions of years, led to organisms such as humans, that is also not a violation of the second law of thermodynamics. There are many examples of systems in nature that become systematically more complex of their own accord. Using a very simple analogy, the structure of ice is always the same (I am generalizing here, because there are, in fact, different structures of ice. Literature fans will be glad to know there is, in fact, an 'ice 9'). However the point is the same, if you take water and decrease the energy in the system (by freezing it) the ice will always organize itself with no outside guidance.

Life in general has many of the same characteristics, however life has the added bonus of having had evolution edit out most of the mistakes. The organs that seem so complicated today, such as the eyeball, are the result of a few million generations of slightly less complicated eyes saving their owners lives' long enough for them to reproduce. The eyes that didn't work well enough were eliminated with the organism they were a part of, and never made it to this point in time.

I would also point out that most religions place humans at the pinnacle of God's achievement (that existence was created for the purpose of supporting humans). However, the universe has been around for about 15 billion years, whereas humans have only existed for a puny fraction of that time. There is also a whole lot of universe and only one Earth with humans on it, raising the question of why He is screwing around with all this extraneous matter. There are also a large number of species that arent necessary for the existence or survival of humans, most notably those that existed in the past and went extinct. Their existence in any real form is more indicative of a random, unordered universe than it is of an all powerful omnipotent entity with humans in mind.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6675|Canberra, AUS

Flavius Aetius wrote:

i don't consider going to church a crummy life. What has science proven against my religion? I know I can say stuff from the bible to counter-act every claim you have, but their is no proof on my side so you will call it a victory for yourself. Science has shown us a lot, but nothing I would say proves religion wrong.
So my question to you is, why exist?
Weak anthropic principle. Research that.

O_o at skruples. Thermodynamics aint my strong point.

---

Worlds and planets are more common than you think. With the most conservative data, the number of solar systems with planets is more than you can fathom (though the average distance between them is also more than you can fathom - 200 light years)

---

The laws of physics did not exist before Planck time (10^-43 seconds). This would explain the entropy thing.

---

Has anyone ever considered that God set off the Big Bang?

---

Delve deeper and deeper into this and you find string theory, in which case you want to get out of that hole very fast. 'Strings' are things that are smaller than the smallest thing imaginable (which is pretty damn small), and that 'live' in multiple dimensions (about 30, last estimate?).

---

This is one of the wilder theories. Its mine

Anyone ever heard of quantum foam? I know very little about it but I do know... it forms in the singularities of black holes. I believe that it is just strings that have been twisted beyond all dimensions. This could literally CHANGE the properties and laws that they abide by, occasionally causing some to 'break off' to another dimension.

Sorry if you got none of that.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6772|PNW

afewje wrote:

Havent u ever doubted your faith? with science proving more and more things like the big bang theory and finding more and more evidence its hard not to quesiton your faith. What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity. So iunno i would like to know what you guys think. It would be a shame for all the people in the world to have a crummy life then noting forever. makes you think...
Here's a thought for you? What if God created existence already "old" just to confuse the shit out of our scientists? Twist that around your brain for a bit.

But no, really...the only thing that science proves is that every discovery reveals yet more irritating mysteries (to put it simply). And occasionally, discoveries and theories have been proven wrong in the past. What makes the present so different and unique from our past?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-03-22 23:22:01)

TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6673|Colorado

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

That while our bodies are flesh, we are beings, in a large part, also comprised of energy.  Energy cannot be destroyed, only change forms.  When we die, our energy simply changes form and moves on to another state of being.
This is a great way of thinking, it gives me hope that some other people might have some sort of a clue of how things really are, perhaps the old souls aren't far behind to show us the way to ascension.
I think we once knew but forgot when the polarity changed on the earth , we are finally starting to regain the knowledge we lost. One thing is for certain, things are coming to a head quickly.
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6654

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Actually there is:
"There is enough water in the oceans so that, if all the surface features of the earth were evened out, water would cover the earth to a depth of 2.7 km (1.7 miles). This is not enough to cover mountains the height of Everest, but it shows that the pre-Flood mountains could have been several kilometers high and still be covered."
For once, wannabe_tank_whore is right, they just found Noah's Ark on mount Arafat:

http://www.psychoticempire.com/Noahs_Ark_Found.html
BVC
Member
+325|6696
I'm an athiest/evolutionist who believes theres nothing wrong with going to church, however misguided it may be   That said, I do realise I could be proven wrong or change my mind at some point in the future, I did change my beliefs to be this way...

Agent_Dung_Bomb and Trollmeat: I once had a similar thought while under the influence of some very strong acid; that our physical forms and interactions are but a tiny, inconsequential point of expression and that we're all at this very point in time, big blobs of self-aware energy.  Strange shit.

Last edited by Pubic (2006-03-23 04:19:03)

wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778

Skruples wrote:

While I am not Marconius, I thought I'd answer this anyway. While love is certainly not easily explained, if looked at from an evolutionary perspective one can see why something like 'love' might have come about naturally. Many animal species are dependant on their parents for survival for a period after birth. If parents didnt care for their young, the species would go extinct in the space of a few generations at most. Therefore, its not suprising that some kind of attachment to ones own offspring occurs. Similarly, some animal species (most notably humans, though the social structure of modern human society makes this somewhat obsolete) are dependant on their mate for survival in the same way newborns are. Many bird parents will split tasks, for example the mother will sit on the eggs to ensure the best chances of survival, while the male hunts/forages for food for them both; if the male just impregnated the female and left, it is likely that both the female and offspring would both die. Thus, it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that some sort of neurochemical 'bond' would take place.

However, I would also point out that just because a scientific explenation for love (however tentative) exists, it does not make it any less fantastic.
So, we can be compared to animals?  How is providing for offspring and loving someone you became friends with the same?  Marconius said anything that's measured he believes in.  So, measure love.  Why do I love my girlfriend more than I love my boss?
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

I believe science has its place too.  But many things go unexplained in science.  If out of nothing, nothing comes, where did earth come from?  If energy neither created nor destroyed explain how this world came about.  And remember that science is about theories.

Skruples wrote:

I believe you are referring to the laws of thermodynamics, specifically the first law: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed.

When the Big Bang is looked at from this perspective, it appears that it violates the laws of thermodynamics. After all, at first there was nothing, and then there was a whole lot of something, and it apparently came from nowhere. The explanations to counter this argument are incredibely complex, and filled with high level physics, so I will not go into it here. Suffice it to say, I still believe the incredibely complex theories more than I believe "God did it".

If you want to learn more about it, I suggest (again) going to your local library and picking up a book dedicated to the subject. Stephen Hawking has done some very interesting work, but if I try and read it for longer than 5 minutes at a time I pass out.
So, you admit to live by faith too?

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Actually there is:
"There is enough water in the oceans so that, if all the surface features of the earth were evened out, water would cover the earth to a depth of 2.7 km (1.7 miles). This is not enough to cover mountains the height of Everest, but it shows that the pre-Flood mountains could have been several kilometers high and still be covered."

Skruples wrote:

If you reread my original quote, you will see

Skruples wrote:

I would also note that there is not enough water in liquid, ice and vapor form combined to flood the entire earth as it exists today.
However, even if we disregarding that, there are several problems with your quote, mainly that the surfaces of the Earth are not evened out. The oceans cover most of the Earth's surface, and on average are much deeper than the land surfaces are high. (In other words, averaging the surface of the Earth doesnt mean a damn thing). Furthermore, the Noah story (which I believe you are referring to with this talk of global flooding) takes place in the recent past (geologically speaking) when the Earth's surfaces were definitely
not evened out, and so my original point stands: There is not enough water on Earth to flood every land mass.

A source for your quote would also be good.
You previously wrote that the mountain rose over millions of years but now you say "mainly that the surfaces of the Earth are not evened out."  True today, but what about your millions of years ago?  "The oceans cover most of the Earth's surface, and on average are much deeper than the land surfaces are high."  Would that not make it possible for all of earth to be covered in water?  Answer this, how much water comparable to that on the Earth's surface is below ground?

As would one from you.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio … /flood.asp
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6736|California
Well, guess what kiddies? We're all gonna find out, in the end, exactly who was right. I would debate religon with you all, but it will change nothing. I have my faith, you have/ don't have yours, and there it is.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778

Skruples wrote:

Simplified: if you shuffle a deck of cards and deal, the chances of that particular sequence of cards occuring is very low. But after you shuffle, the chances of that sequence are 100%, because it has already happened. Similarly, the chances of the universe having the specific set of variables that make life possible is low (as opposed to any number of other possible universes), but the fact is it does exist, and so the chances of it happening are 100% as far as we (life in general) are concerned.
It's very easy to say "we are here because the deck was lined up the way it was."  Now explain how the deck got lined up to begin with. 

Skruples wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics states, basically, that the energy in a system must remain even or decrease with time. (or that entropy must increase with time, which is essentially the same thing). Intelligent Design advocates have used this to try and disprove evolution, however their arguments are, again, flawed. The analogy I have seen used is that a building will not magically erect itself if all the materials required for its construction are thrown together. Similarly, a living cell will not assemble if all the chemicals are put in one place. This is true to a point, however life is not random, nor did it come about randomly according to most scientific theory. Life only exists because it is self perpetuating, and so the very first organism (in its most simplistic form) only led to life because it somehow created a copy of itself that was capable of creating copies of itself (a 'child' capable of having children, if you will).
But never in the history of science has a copy added to itself.  A copy is just that a copy.  So a single cell cannot become multiple cells after that copy.

Skruples wrote:

As for the increasing complexity of life that has, over millions of years, led to organisms such as humans, that is also not a violation of the second law of thermodynamics. There are many examples of systems in nature that become systematically more complex of their own accord. Using a very simple analogy, the structure of ice is always the same (I am generalizing here, because there are, in fact, different structures of ice. Literature fans will be glad to know there is, in fact, an 'ice 9'). However the point is the same, if you take water and decrease the energy in the system (by freezing it) the ice will always organize itself with no outside guidance.
No "outside guidance"?  You're freezing it.  What happens to liquids when submitted to their freezing points?

Skruples wrote:

Life in general has many of the same characteristics, however life has the added bonus of having had evolution edit out most of the mistakes. The organs that seem so complicated today, such as the eyeball, are the result of a few million generations of slightly less complicated eyes saving their owners lives' long enough for them to reproduce. The eyes that didn't work well enough were eliminated with the organism they were a part of, and never made it to this point in time.
This has never been observed yet you state it as fact.  Funny how science is mostly theories of what is most likely true but can't be proven.

Skruples wrote:

I would also point out that most religions place humans at the pinnacle of God's achievement (that existence was created for the purpose of supporting humans). However, the universe has been around for about 15 billion years, whereas humans have only existed for a puny fraction of that time. There is also a whole lot of universe and only one Earth with humans on it, raising the question of why He is screwing around with all this extraneous matter. There are also a large number of species that arent necessary for the existence or survival of humans, most notably those that existed in the past and went extinct. Their existence in any real form is more indicative of a random, unordered universe than it is of an all powerful omnipotent entity with humans in mind.
(emphasis mine)

You said earlier, "This is true to a point, however life is not random, nor did it come about randomly according to most scientific theory."  Things that make you go Hmmmm....
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6736|Salt Lake City

Spark wrote:

Flavius Aetius wrote:

i don't consider going to church a crummy life. What has science proven against my religion? I know I can say stuff from the bible to counter-act every claim you have, but their is no proof on my side so you will call it a victory for yourself. Science has shown us a lot, but nothing I would say proves religion wrong.
So my question to you is, why exist?
Weak anthropic principle. Research that.

O_o at skruples. Thermodynamics aint my strong point.

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Worlds and planets are more common than you think. With the most conservative data, the number of solar systems with planets is more than you can fathom (though the average distance between them is also more than you can fathom - 200 light years)

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The laws of physics did not exist before Planck time (10^-43 seconds). This would explain the entropy thing.

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Has anyone ever considered that God set off the Big Bang?

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Delve deeper and deeper into this and you find string theory, in which case you want to get out of that hole very fast. 'Strings' are things that are smaller than the smallest thing imaginable (which is pretty damn small), and that 'live' in multiple dimensions (about 30, last estimate?).

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This is one of the wilder theories. Its mine

Anyone ever heard of quantum foam? I know very little about it but I do know... it forms in the singularities of black holes. I believe that it is just strings that have been twisted beyond all dimensions. This could literally CHANGE the properties and laws that they abide by, occasionally causing some to 'break off' to another dimension.

Sorry if you got none of that.
While I certainly do not have the mathematical knowledge or scientific skills to fully understand string theory, it is this theory on which I base my belief that when we die, our energy simply changes form and joins the universal energy...strings.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6842|Cologne, Germany

Flavius Aetius wrote:

so what is the meaning of life? why are we here?
As far as I am concerned, there is no greater meaning in life, at least not from a metaphysical point of view. Your life has the meaning that you wish to attribute to it.

Religion is about faith. Either you believe or you don't. For those who believe, religion can be a source of hope or comfort in difficult times. Those who don't believe in a greater being ( which you may call god, allah, or whatever the world religions have to offer ), believe in themselves or have some other form of motivation that drives them.
Rosse_modest
Member
+76|6776|Antwerp, Flanders

herrr_smity wrote:

now THIS might come as a shock to you all but life has no meaning what so ever
I agree with this assessment. It is often said the purpose of life is to procreate, while procreation is nothing more than one of the criteria to define life. Life is nothing but the result of numerous chemical and physical interactions in this universe. Any "purpose" people might think life to have is illusory in nature. Life has no meaning or purpose. It just is.

Last edited by Rosse_modest (2006-03-23 07:21:59)

Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6736|California
So why don't we all do the Earth a big favor and kill ourselves? All we do is destroy the planet and kil off other species. We are the cancer of the planet. Start with yourself, and I will follow..... promise.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6736|Salt Lake City

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

It's very easy to say "we are here because the deck was lined up the way it was."  Now explain how the deck got lined up to begin with.
This goes back to the same old argument.  Just because we have a hard time fathoming the possibilities, and full understanding of the universe is not ours, we must assign some supernatural being as the source.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

But never in the history of science has a copy added to itself.  A copy is just that a copy.  So a single cell cannot become multiple cells after that copy.
During the early formation of this planet the conditions were extremely volotile.  Massive heat, molten states, constant bombardment of asteroids and other space debris, radiation, etc.  Why do humans have cells that mutate into cancerous cells?  Science has in fact proven that there are outside influences, that if a person is exposed to them, will cause such mutations.  Why do we have birth defects?  Because something went wrong and caused the offspring to fail to form properly.  If the environment required changes to survive, changes could have occurred.  Single cell organisms are not like digital computer data.  Flaws and external influences can causes changes to occur after generations of offspring.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

This has never been observed yet you state it as fact.  Funny how science is mostly theories of what is most likely true but can't be proven.
His use of eyes was only an example, but I'm not sure where you found that no evidence of this has never been found.  Cave dwelling animals that live in constant darkness have lost pigment and while having what appear to be eyes, are in fact just useless remnants...they can't see.  They evolved to survive in that environment.  If they were designed by God to live in such a place, why would they even have the remnants of eyes?
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778
RO 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    RO 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

    RO 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

    RO 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    RO 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6778

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

It's very easy to say "we are here because the deck was lined up the way it was."  Now explain how the deck got lined up to begin with.
This goes back to the same old argument.  Just because we have a hard time fathoming the possibilities, and full understanding of the universe is not ours, we must assign some supernatural being as the source.
I was thinking the same thing about his arguement.  "Things were in place back then that are not in place now."  Makes for easy rationalizing or 'faith' as you put it.

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

But never in the history of science has a copy added to itself.  A copy is just that a copy.  So a single cell cannot become multiple cells after that copy.
During the early formation of this planet the conditions were extremely volotile.  Massive heat, molten states, constant bombardment of asteroids and other space debris, radiation, etc.
Were you there?  Where's the evidence to support this?  Again, you believe this on faith.  Faith that the person that thought this up was a lot smarter than you. 

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Why do humans have cells that mutate into cancerous cells?  Science has in fact proven that there are outside influences, that if a person is exposed to them, will cause such mutations.  Why do we have birth defects?  Because something went wrong and caused the offspring to fail to form properly.  If the environment required changes to survive, changes could have occurred.  Single cell organisms are not like digital computer data.  Flaws and external influences can causes changes to occur after generations of offspring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation
Read up.  You will be surprised.  By definition, all are errors.

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

This has never been observed yet you state it as fact.  Funny how science is mostly theories of what is most likely true but can't be proven.
His use of eyes was only an example, but I'm not sure where you found that no evidence of this has never been found.  Cave dwelling animals that live in constant darkness have lost pigment and while having what appear to be eyes, are in fact just useless remnants...they can't see.  They evolved to survive in that environment.  If they were designed by God to live in such a place, why would they even have the remnants of eyes?
This doesn't explain what he was covering which is macroevolution.  An African lives near the equator where the sun is the hottest.  Africans are black in skin color.  When I cut my grass my skin darkens.  Hmmm...  In England it is overcast a lot.  The people in England are white.   Hmmm...   Now look up microevolution vs. macroevolution and you should see the difference.

Last edited by wannabe_tank_whore (2006-03-23 07:45:22)

Squig2510
Member
+0|6692

(EUS)Gen.BadSnipaDay wrote:

Think about science, it says that matter can not be CREATED or destroyed, so where does everything come from?.. HOW in the f*ck is there a universe? Something has to come from somewhere, i mean, when you think about science, there shouldnt be anything, a blank space of nothing... NO!, not even a black space, just nothing!... how is there an earth? God must have created all of this, but the big question is... Where did god come from?.. Something has to come from SOMEWHERE, this concept will spin your thoughts to its full extent and make you go to the edge of crazy.
At some point, we'll know and it will be told. Religion can't proof God exists, science can't proof He doesn't. Religiouse people tend to ask questions which cannot be answered which would be proof of God. Mankind learned a lot in history, and many of those questions have been answered, but new questions arose. My guess is, neither of the religiouse or not-religiouse people will even convince one-another. And even if science does explain how this all came to be, religion will finally know how God did it. I see religion as a way to explain things which are not explained yet. In my point of view, religion gives hope. I want to believe, but I cannot ignore science, so I can never really believe in a God. Its hard to ignore science and truly believe in something supernatural like God. I don't mind people doing that, it makes them more happier. I'm wondering what happens if you die. you won't be anything. Your molecules will most likely become part of something else. It's hard to understand that, when you die, it's over. It would be much nicer to believe in heaven, at least then you wouldn't have to worry about death and all. If there is heaven, I would love to go there when I die. Sadly, I don't really believe in it, because I can't, because of science. Just let me believe whatever I want, I don't require anyone to think the same way I do, nor do I expect this from others.

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