DrDestruction
Utilityman
+1|7016

FeloniousMonk wrote:

DrDestruction wrote:

Im not saying I agree with young people, but I can see where they are coming from.

1.  Swords can be used by anyone with any access to building materials at all, while guns are generally owned only by those that can afford them directly or afford the means to procure them.  This probably goes along with many views of how the world should be "absolutely equal with nothing different" of many young people.

2.  Combat with a sword involves getting up close and fighting someone else (almost always).  A gun, on the other hand, can be fired from a long ways away and more often than not, hits a target without them knowing.  The same reason why literal backstabbing, and, often, sniping, is frowned upon.

I don't agree with these, however.
Ever made a sword? Yeah, not that easy. Depending on the style, a good sword with decent balance and strong enough to withstand repeated use is likely going to cost more than a handgun. For example, one of the most popular types of sword is the katana (nerds love them) yet if you spend less than four figures on one you bought yourself a piece of shit. Even then, I've handled some katanas worth upwards of two grand and the balance was still terrible.

I agree on the second point, however what people tend to forget is that to properly use a sword requires far, far more training than it does to use a gun. A gun is also far more effective in a self defense situation. If a person is shot without knowing it then the shooter is likely a criminal; when used in self defense the target is probably going to know he's about to be shot because he's probably doing something that warrants it.


Also, sniping is only frowned upon by people who don't understand what it is. No offense to you but it's a terrible injustice to associate genuine snipers with sick, twisted killers who take long range shots on their victims. Snipers, sharpshooters trained for military or law enforcement purposes, are life savers. One shot, one kill often means that a battle won't take place or that a hostage is rescued from the grips of a madman.
I think you misunderstood my post.

Im simply saying I can see THEIR reasoning - I do NOT agree with it.  Personally, I agree with you.  I don't see the sword fascination at all, and guns are often downright awesome looking.

First, swords were some of the first "modern" weapons made.  They were used in ancient countries, made by blacksmiths and distributed as gifts, as returns for favors, as bargaining chips, hell, often as peace offerings.  THIS was the point Im trying to make about swords - they are a very primitive yet effective weapon, and require no modern techniques to make.  Im not saying it will be easy, but its a hell of alot easier for a poor culture to make a sword than a handgun.

Second, Im speaking from a wartime view, so common criminals wouldn't apply here.  I was talking from an honor standpoint, it is often deemed "dishonorable" to shoot someone while they are facing away from you.  That's it - that was the entire point of the next two paragraphs (sorry I didnt make myself clear).  Again, I dont agree with this - in times of war, you should do what is necessary to achieve victory, even if it means a few "cheap" kills.

As for snipers, I don't associate them at all.  The young people who enjoy the swords, however, do.  To them, being a sniper is no more honorable than running up and stabbing someone in the back.  Again, I do NOT agree with this - you and I seem to have the same views.

I think you are just mixing up my opinion with the "young sword geeks'" opinions.  My fault, I didn't state my position clear enough.
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6974

{SiR}_XsnipeR01 wrote:

I find that statement just tad bit...................misguided. First when I say swords I don't mean those POS swords you find in malls that are made of 440 stainless steel, im talking about swords that have been hand-forged from T10 high-carbon steel, made from scratch and have had the loving care put into them.  I have swords from all over the world Spain, Japan, China just to name a few. My swords range from Apocalypse Rider Sword by Marto to the famous Japanese Tsunami Katana. Now I buy for quality not crap. I also have Battle axes.

Like I said

I LOVE WEAPONS AND I LOVE SHOOTING THATS MY PASSION

I do agree with you that most young people think that way, but here is what I have to say about that.

There is no HONOR in killing another human and you if think (not you personally monk) that killing someone with a 3 feet of steel or a bullet (for all that matters) is honorable then you have never had to take another persons life. Killing is killing and that memory will haunt you all of your life. Trust me when I say that to watch another person die because of your actions is something that is very hard to live with.  I do not want anyone to kill another human, ever, but if it comes to that I would like to be armed.


You hit the nail right on the head here amen to that.

I take pride in my weapon collection, I take care of all my weapons and do not misuse them.

As for age im not young but im also not old. lol
Misguided how? Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to imply that your swords are (lol) Franklin Mint or from the Highlander catalogue. :p I also didn't mean to imply that I was referring to you; in fact I was just on another forum that contains a number of science fiction/fantasy fans and in one particular thread one mentioned that very thing. He hates guns (except of course the fictional ones in his favorite shows) but thinks that people should walk around with swords to defend themselves.


Heh. Kids.


The latter part of your post is very true, by the way.

Last edited by FeloniousMonk (2005-12-04 02:04:49)

FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6974

DrDestruction wrote:

I think you misunderstood my post.

Im simply saying I can see THEIR reasoning - I do NOT agree with it.  Personally, I agree with you.  I don't see the sword fascination at all, and guns are often downright awesome looking.

First, swords were some of the first "modern" weapons made.  They were used in ancient countries, made by blacksmiths and distributed as gifts, as returns for favors, as bargaining chips, hell, often as peace offerings.  THIS was the point Im trying to make about swords - they are a very primitive yet effective weapon, and require no modern techniques to make.  Im not saying it will be easy, but its a hell of alot easier for a poor culture to make a sword than a handgun.

Second, Im speaking from a wartime view, so common criminals wouldn't apply here.  I was talking from an honor standpoint, it is often deemed "dishonorable" to shoot someone while they are facing away from you.  That's it - that was the entire point of the next two paragraphs (sorry I didnt make myself clear).  Again, I dont agree with this - in times of war, you should do what is necessary to achieve victory, even if it means a few "cheap" kills.

As for snipers, I don't associate them at all.  The young people who enjoy the swords, however, do.  To them, being a sniper is no more honorable than running up and stabbing someone in the back.  Again, I do NOT agree with this - you and I seem to have the same views.

I think you are just mixing up my opinion with the "young sword geeks'" opinions.  My fault, I didn't state my position clear enough.
I'm sorry, I should be more clear. I did see your note that you didn't agree with those views, I was just pointing out my own reasons for disagreeing with them. :p
{SiR}_XsnipeR01
Member
+0|6958

{SiR}_XsnipeR01 wrote:

FeloniousMonk wrote:

One very funny thing I've noticed often among young people is that they think swords are incredibly cool while guns are grotesque in design. For some reason people believe it's more honorable to jam three feet of steel into someone as opposed to less than half a cubic inch of lead.
First when I say swords I don't mean those POS swords you find in malls that are made of 440 stainless steel, im talking about swords that have been hand-forged from T10 high-carbon steel, made from scratch and have had the loving care put into them.  I have swords from all over the world Spain, Japan, China just to name a few. My swords range from Apocalypse Rider Sword by Marto to the famous Japanese Tsunami Katana. Now I buy for quality not crap. I also have Battle axes.

Like I said

I LOVE WEAPONS AND I LOVE SHOOTING THATS MY PASSION

I do agree with you that most young people think that way, but here is what I have to say about that.

There is no HONOR in killing another human and you if think (not you personally monk) that killing someone with a 3 feet of steel or a bullet (for all that matters) is honorable then you have never had to take another persons life. Killing is killing and that memory will haunt you all of your life. Trust me when I say that to watch another person die because of your actions is something that is very hard to live with.  I do not want anyone to kill another human, ever, but if it comes to that I would like to be armed.

FeloniousMonk wrote:

Ever made a sword? Yeah, not that easy. Depending on the style, a good sword with decent balance and strong enough to withstand repeated use is likely going to cost more than a handgun. For example, one of the most popular types of sword is the katana (nerds love them) yet if you spend less than four figures on one you bought yourself a piece of shit. Even then, I've handled some katanas worth upwards of two grand and the balance was still terrible.

I agree on the second point, however what people tend to forget is that to properly use a sword requires far, far more training than it does to use a gun. A gun is also far more effective in a self defense situation. If a person is shot without knowing it then the shooter is likely a criminal; when used in self defense the target is probably going to know he's about to be shot because he's probably doing something that warrants it.
You hit the nail right on the head here amen to that. I would dare to say when the Katana blade is in the right hands it can be as deadly as a firearm.

FeloniousMonk wrote:

Also, sniping is only frowned upon by people who don't understand what it is. No offense to you but it's a terrible injustice to associate genuine snipers with sick, twisted killers who take long range shots on their victims. Snipers, sharpshooters trained for military or law enforcement purposes, are life savers. One shot, one kill often means that a battle won't take place or that a hostage is rescued from the grips of a madman.
I wish everyone would see it that way but most think that a sniper is a killer/assassin.
!!!!!!!RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!ONE SHOT ONE KILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I take pride in my weapon collection, I take care of all my weapons and do not misuse them.

As for age im not young but im also not old. lol
I have changed a few words thus I hope it come accross alot better

FeloniousMonk wrote:

I also didn't mean to imply that I was referring to you; in fact I was just on another forum that contains a number of science fiction/fantasy fans and in one particular thread one mentioned that very thing. He hates guns (except of course the fictional ones in his favorite shows) but thinks that people should walk around with swords to defend themselves.


Heh. Kids.


The latter part of your post is very true, by the way.
As for this kid lol omg lol wow hes going to get beat up alot lol

And thank you

Last edited by {SiR}_XsnipeR01 (2005-12-04 02:18:27)

FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6974
You hit the nail right on the head here amen to that. I would dare to say when the Katana blade is in the right hands it can be as deadly as a firearm.
Agreed; hell, in the right hands a sen biao or even a staff can be a very deadly weapon. Then there are weapons like the kwan dao that just look like it can get up and kill you all by its' lonesome. :eek:
{SiR}_XsnipeR01
Member
+0|6958
I agree with you in the highest I have seen alot of valid points in all the posts and I would dare to say this post has been the most fun that I have had on fourms in a long while. Lets keep it going.
DrDestruction
Utilityman
+1|7016
Im rather fond of double hook swords myself.

http://www.usawushu.com/shop/weapons/bi … eHooks.jpg
{SiR}_XsnipeR01
Member
+0|6958
Very nice very very nice but I tend to lean in the direction of the basterd sword like the

Apocalypse Rider Sword by Marto

http://www.iloveswords.com/FAN_ApocRider.html

(Ohh it is a fantasy sword but its also battle ready I liked the look can't blame me right lol)

That are use not to slice but to brutally smash your Enemy to death.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7075
Please understand that even with the millions of gun owners and gun rights groups fighting for thier " given Constitutional Rights " They have still seen thier rights eroded. If the gun rights are lost. You will lose your swords in a week or less. Libral scums just dont want you having fun. Hunting, Horse riding, fishing, camping, sky diving etc are all thing they will "protect you from "
RhadamanthysSCC
Member
+2|6962|Perth, Western Australia

freebirdpat wrote:

RhadamanthysSCC wrote:

Isn't diplomacy answer than bullets in these so-called enlightened times?

Or am I just being naive?
Please explain how we would have ousted Saddam, or the Taliban in Afghanistan without Military action?
If the Gulf War didn't happen in '91, Saddam would still today have the 4th largest army in the world.
Hmm, the winking smiley doesn't convey irony as well as I'd hoped. I know full well that my statement is naive in the extreme and that in this day and age, in the real world, that military action is indeed, sometimes, the only answer.

I would note however that my original point was more along the lines that a resistance movement often causes more harm than it does good and that that point stands in the case of both the first and second Gulf Wars. What happened to those who opposed Saddam with arms during the first war? They hurt some Iraqis, didn't get the support they were pledged from the Coalition and got horribly persecuted by Saddam's regime after the war. Who exactly benefited from that?

FeloniousMonk wrote:

But they would've had the abliy to fight for their lives instead of being shipped to concentration camps by the truckload. I would much rather die defending my life and freedom than being tossed into a gas chamber. If the Jews in Germany and Poland had the means to defend themselves then at the very least they would've stood up to those evil maniacs if not turned the tide of the war itself. Imagine six million Jews with guns; you don't think that would've made a difference?
So every Jew in Poland was going to take up arms? Even the elderly, the women and the children? And they were all going to do what to the Stukas, panzers and artillery shells exactly? Look at the Warsaw Ghetto uprisings in 1944, what happened then? A few thousand dead Germans and an awful lot of dead Jewish resistance fighters. Did it change the course of the war? Not considerably, not according to anything I've read on the subject.

I understand that you believe you would rather fight than die, but I suspect that many more people don't feel that way and would rather live in the hope of being free again one day rather than throw their lives away in what to them would be an empty gesture.

Call it American egotism if you will but I'll die free before I hand over my liberty to anyone.
And if I told you that if you endured the oppressors for a time you'd regain you're freedom at the end of it? Would you still be so willing to die for your freedom then?

The point is that they would have a choice instead of simply being slaughtered like cattle.
Force of arms isn't the only choice in that situation. You can run, you can hide, acts of non-violent civil disobedience can be made, you can appeal to the humanity of others and hope they save you, you can renounce your faith/people/etc. and turn on your own, you can die with dignity knowing you go to meet God and your killer will burn in hell eternally, you can do many other things, just because they wouldn't be your choice doesn't mean they aren't options.

horseman77 wrote:

Hell we have yet to come up with any Holocausts or ethnic cleansing
Can I mention the phrase 'Native American' here? That particular section of US history strikes me as ethnic cleansing as much as some of Australia's past treatment of it's own indigenous population...

Last edited by RhadamanthysSCC (2005-12-06 04:41:50)

FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6974

RhadamanthysSCC wrote:

So every Jew in Poland was going to take up arms? Even the elderly, the women and the children? And they were all going to do what to the Stukas, panzers and artillery shells exactly? Look at the Warsaw Ghetto uprisings in 1944, what happened then? A few thousand dead Germans and an awful lot of dead Jewish resistance fighters. Did it change the course of the war? Not considerably, not according to anything I've read on the subject.
But they would've had a fighting chance. Even if every single one had died shooting at Germans it would've been a better fate than being tossed into a mass grave to be riddled with bullets, stuffed into a gas chamber, or used for medical experiments. At least they would have had the choice to defend themselves. At least they would've been able to die protecting their families as opposed to simply being dragged off to slaughter. Maybe it wouldn't have much of a difference in the course of the war but at least they would've died free.
I understand that you believe you would rather fight than die, but I suspect that many more people don't feel that way and would rather live in the hope of being free again one day rather than throw their lives away in what to them would be an empty gesture.
I feel very sorry for anyone that believes that. All I can have for that attitude is pity and hope that they never have to make that decision.


And if I told you that if you endured the oppressors for a time you'd regain you're freedom at the end of it? Would you still be so willing to die for your freedom then?
Yes because you nor anyone else would be able guarantee that the oppression would end. Maybe I'm alone in this but to me a day of freedom is worth sacrificing a lifetime of slavery. I would, of course, prefer to wait for the right moment to increase my chances and to help as many others as I could but I would never give up my intention of freeing myself instead of just hoping that the oppressors will simply get tired of being powerful.


Force of arms isn't the only choice in that situation. You can run, you can hide, acts of non-violent civil disobedience can be made, you can appeal to the humanity of others and hope they save you, you can renounce your faith/people/etc. and turn on your own, you can die with dignity knowing you go to meet God and your killer will burn in hell eternally, you can do many other things, just because they wouldn't be your choice doesn't mean they aren't options.
It's not the only choice but it is most certainly the most effective and efficient. Some people can't run, they don't have the means or they don't have anywhere to hide. Acts of non-violent disobedience is certainly a great idea but in the end the British government didn't just leave India because Ghandi wouldn't fight; pressure from the rest of the world helped push it along. Ghandi himself recognized that disarming the citizens of India was the worst atrocity of the British government in his country.

You can appeal to the humanity of others all you want but that still leaves the choice in their hands. I'd rather decide my own fate. Renouncing your faith or turning on your own people is not honorable in any way; giving up your principles and your countrymen to spare your own life is traitorous in the harshest sense of the word. If others want to die with dignity believing their god will punish their oppressors, that's fine. But I don't believe in a higher power and thus I would prefer to exact my own punishment on those who would chose to have me killed or enslaved.

You're right, people can do many things but my choice would be to fight for my freedom. That's an inherent right that comes with being a sentient human being and I will defend that right by any means necessary. I've stated before, nothing in this world is more important to me than liberty. Before you claim that as selfish I do not mean just my own; the freedom and liberty of others is equally as important and thus I would never infringe on anyone else's right to life as it would contradict my own beliefs. In that same sense, someone who willingly infringes on my right to life or someone else's has, in my eyes, given up their own right to it.


horseman77 wrote:

Can I mention the phrase 'Native American' here? That particular section of US history strikes me as ethnic cleansing as much as some of Australia's past treatment of it's own indigenous population...
Indeed. Horrible atrocities have been commited by virtually every nation on the planet; there isn't a single one that is truly innocent.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7075
He got me on the Native Americans thing but anyone who reads this knows

I allways admit The American Indians and Arabs got fcuked over big time
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6974
We should give all the land back to the natives just to see the look on their faces.

0_O

It'd be gold, I tell ya.
Burning_Monkey
Moving Target
+108|7076
Actually guys, with in 21 feet, a knife is much more deadly than a pistol.  More officers are afraid of being stabbed than shot at that range.  And modern body armor is not stab resistant at all.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7075

Burning_Monkey wrote:

Actually guys, with in 21 feet, a knife is much more deadly than a pistol.  More officers are afraid of being stabbed than shot at that range.  And modern body armor is not stab resistant at all.
At 21 one Feet? I'll take the pistol... Ty anyway.
RhadamanthysSCC
Member
+2|6962|Perth, Western Australia
@ FeloniousMonk: I can understand and respect your point of view, hell I even admire it, I'm just saying that it's at the fairly extreme end of the scale in my world. Would I fight and die for my freedom? I like to think I would if push came to shove, but to be honest I'd prefer to fight and live for my freedom

As for Ghandi and the end of the British Raj, well, isn't that an excellent example that force of arms isn't always 'the most effective and efficient' choice? I'll grant you that most of the time the most effective and efficient way to end an argument is force, but sometimes, just sometimes, words work too
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7075

RhadamanthysSCC wrote:

@ FeloniousMonk: I can understand and respect your point of view, hell I even admire it, I'm just saying that it's at the fairly extreme end of the scale in my world. Would I fight and die for my freedom? I like to think I would if push came to shove, but to be honest I'd prefer to fight and live for my freedom

As for Ghandi and the end of the British Raj, well, isn't that an excellent example that force of arms isn't always 'the most effective and efficient' choice? I'll grant you that most of the time the most effective and efficient way to end an argument is force, but sometimes, just sometimes, words work too
Gahndi was dealing with Great Britian, a civilized Free Country, Not Nazi Germany, Pol Pot, Stalin, Custer, Slobovich, ETC.. Find another Example
RhadamanthysSCC
Member
+2|6962|Perth, Western Australia
Why exactly do I need another example? Ghandi and the Raj is proof that violence doesn't have to be that answer which makes my point valid, violence isn't always the best solution. As for your contention that Ghandi dealt with Great Britain does that make any real difference? GB has been, and still is in some places, considered a tyrannical overlord since Elizabethan times with a history of racial/ethnic atrocities as bad as many of those you've mentioned above.

But if you want examples, I've got 'em...

Many African countries peacefully gained independence from their Colonial masters, Botswana for example, was originally a British Colony called Bechuanaland and became Botswana in 1960, peacefully. Granted they were also a British dependent so I guess I'll have to give you some non-British examples.

Senegal, also in Africa, gained it's independence in 1960 as well. From France and the French government of the time was known for it's hardline on colonial matters, look at their actions in Viet Nam throughout the 1950s for proof of that.

Who else? Singapore, they seceded from the Malaysian Federation, again not a regime known for kindness or being a 'civilised free country' at the time.

You could argue that the break up of Czechoslovakia after the fall of the Soviet Union was broadly peaceful or in fact that the reunification of East and West Germany was also peaceful. In fact you can argue that the breakup of the entire Soviet bloc into seperate countries/federations was a peaceful movement too and the Soviets weren't exactly famed as warm and cuddly either.

So there you go, seperatist movements that have been successful without recourse to violence as their principal means of persuasion. Happy?
|EZ|CRUSHER
Member
+0|6961|Longview, TX
Borrowing a quote used above:

Unfortunately, as Lenin once said:
"One man with a gun can control 100 without one"

This is -PRECISELY- why it is imperative to uphold our rights. Time and time again, in every country around the world it has been necessary for the population, as a whole, to take matters into their own hands in some degree or fashion. It's exactly the way America came to be. It is human nature. Without your weapons what would you defend yourself with should the need ever arise? What would you defend your families with?

The concept of Gun Control is flawed at its fundamental base. It will only work if all guns are gone, everywhere. Otherwise, you're wasting your time and leaving yourself vulnerable. Perhaps not a danger as immediate as some of the current threats but it is there none the less. This type of thinking is exactly why the United States has to almost constantly use the lives of its own to take power from some force that is slaughtering the unarmed. (The genocide in Samolia(sp?) for instance)

People need to stand up for themselves, and stop thinking everything will be alright all the time. They need to stop thinking they will be taken care of all the time. Nothing is for certain.

I am an avid hunter, when was three my dad was carrying me on his shoulders while rabbit hunting. I have been around guns all my life. I can handle any firearm and feel completely confident while doing it. I have a friend that was in the Army for a while. I knew more about the weapons that -he- was trained with than he did. I believe the key to preventing gun violence is education. Teach your children how to check to see if a weapon is loaded, that should be the first thing done when its picked up. Show it to them, let them handle it and they will not be curious.

As for the current gun laws, well, all they do is prohibit the law-biding. Most gun violence is committed by those that obtained their guns illegally. A law can't prohibit under-the-table sales, it just can't. It already is illegal for a felon to own a weapon of any kind. All firearms are registered when they are purchased and for pistols an extensive background check is already preformed. Now I don't think that things like gernades, RPG's, and the like should be availible. Fully auto - I'm iffy on.

I believe it's even been proven that states that allow for concealed carry lisences have a lower crime rate. Criminals are actually afraid that the random person they mug will have a gun.  I can go on and on but I'm going to stop and allow for some replies.
RKF77
Member
+1|6989

bluehavoc8686 wrote:

MurrayP wrote:

Bowling for columbine greatly formed my views on gun control....  although i'm not done watching all of it yet, very intresting movie.
I saw it a few years ago. Without flaming the shit out of Michael Moore (though I'd love to and have many times in the past), let me just advise you to look up the research yourself since Moore's views, you must remember, are terribly biased. Most of the statistics and interviews in his movie are edited and tampered with so that they represent what he is trying to proove. All I'm saying is: be careful before forming strong opinions one way or the other.
I have no idea if anyone posted it after this page, and I am not going to look through four more pages to see...but this is an excellent read about that blatant piece of anti-gun propaganda.

Moore has MAD editing skills.

Last edited by RKF77 (2005-12-06 21:04:49)

FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6974

RhadamanthysSCC wrote:

@ FeloniousMonk: I can understand and respect your point of view, hell I even admire it, I'm just saying that it's at the fairly extreme end of the scale in my world. Would I fight and die for my freedom? I like to think I would if push came to shove, but to be honest I'd prefer to fight and live for my freedom

As for Ghandi and the end of the British Raj, well, isn't that an excellent example that force of arms isn't always 'the most effective and efficient' choice? I'll grant you that most of the time the most effective and efficient way to end an argument is force, but sometimes, just sometimes, words work too
Very true, though he and his teachings were the exemption to the rule. Besides, it wasn't just his nonviolent protesting that pushed the British out. Eventually an armed nation, probably the US had it taken long enough, would've forced the British to vacate.

The point is that Ghandi recognized that disarming the people of India was what led to the oppression in the first place. It's better to have the tools and prevent it from ever happening than to have to find a way to fight it. There is an extremely small chance of America falling under the rule of a tyrannical government because of our right to bear arms. That's what prevents it from ever happening in the first place and will keep us from one day having to fight back. It's a deterrent, just as a criminal is deterred from assaulting or breaking in when he lives in a state like Texas, Florida, or Vermont where people are far more likely to be armed.
RhadamanthysSCC
Member
+2|6962|Perth, Western Australia
Very true, though he and his teachings were the exemption to the rule. Besides, it wasn't just his nonviolent protesting that pushed the British out. Eventually an armed nation, probably the US had it taken long enough, would've forced the British to vacate.
Please note that nobody forced the British out of India at the barrel of a gun, so it would seem to me that non-violent means (both Ghandi-ism and international diplomatic pressure) won the day there, not force of arms and that it didn't take the US army to force the Brits out.

I must also say I can't see the US forcing the British out of India at gunpoint at any rate, Indian emancipation occurred during the early years of the Cold War, a time when the US-UK alliance was both strong and necessary and I can't see the US risking the global spread of communism for India's sake, far more likely was Soviet interference to force the hands of the British, but that's another topic altogether...

The point is that Ghandi recognized that disarming the people of India was what led to the oppression in the first place.
No, the Indian people were repressed long before their arms were taken away, look at the Peshawar uprising or any of the other uprisings in the 18th century when the Indians bore arms. When the Brits stripped Indians of their arms the oppression became easier and arguably, more virulent, but it is not what led to the oppression itself. The oppression was enabled  when the East India Company/British Government decided it wanted to run the country for its own profit and British military might proved greater than that of the Indian states/peoples thus allowing the EIC to virtually own the country, that initial oppression has nothing to do with the British taking away Indian arms. Again, disarming the Indians may have made oppressing them easier but it didn't allow the oppression in the first place.
TheDrNailsGuy
Member
+5|6955
I"m 23, have a CONCEALED HANDGUN LISCENSE, not only do i own a gun, i carry one.  I'm only 23.  My father is a police officer who has let me handle his guns since I was 5 years old.(not shoot, handle).

My point? People who shouldn't be owning or carrying guns will wether or not there is a law against it, or laws that make it harder.  The only people who will follow those "gun control" laws are law biding people like myself.  Would the world be a safer place without guns? Perhaps, but we live in a world that has a technology and we will never rid the world of it.  You will never "control" it either, you will only "control" the laws.  The laws will only influence the people who obey them, and those that don't will have guns at their disposal. 

The LAPD did not carry machine guns. Two men robbing a bank did.  We all know the rest of the story. Kalifornia has some of the strictest gun control laws in america and that didn't stop two guys from shooting 18 people.
Burning_Monkey
Moving Target
+108|7076

Horseman 77 wrote:

Burning_Monkey wrote:

Actually guys, with in 21 feet, a knife is much more deadly than a pistol.  More officers are afraid of being stabbed than shot at that range.  And modern body armor is not stab resistant at all.
At 21 one Feet? I'll take the pistol... Ty anyway.
If we both start out with the weapons in pockets or holsters, you will be the one dead.  A knife weilding attacker can cover the 21 feet and stab you to death before the pistol clears holster every time.  And I mean every time.  It's an example they run at Gunsite (or at least that's the name of the school) and no one has survived the test.  Not even the instructors.

Didn't you ever wonder why police make you turn around, face away, and put your hands behind your head in a high tension situation?  The 21 foot rule is one of the reasons why.  The extra time it takes you to drop your hands, grab the knife, and close the distance is just enough for the officer to drop your ass with 2 to the center of mass.
{SiR}_XsnipeR01
Member
+0|6958

Burning_Monkey wrote:

If we both start out with the weapons in pockets or holsters, you will be the one dead.  A knife weilding attacker can cover the 21 feet and stab you to death before the pistol clears holster every time.  And I mean every time.  It's an example they run at Gunsite (or at least that's the name of the school) and no one has survived the test.  Not even the instructors.

Didn't you ever wonder why police make you turn around, face away, and put your hands behind your head in a high tension situation?  The 21 foot rule is one of the reasons why.  The extra time it takes you to drop your hands, grab the knife, and close the distance is just enough for the officer to drop your ass with 2 to the center of mass.
OK now if I get this right if we both start with the weapons in the pockets/holsters you would kill me every time?  Ok heres the deal, first you have to take in to affect two basic rules in One on One CQB (Close Quarters Battle) or CQC (Close Quarters Combat)

1) You always keep you eyes on the enemy
2) Choose the plan off attack/defense

Now to get to what you have written, I will tell you this. I some forms of military training (I will leave out the names) you are trained for these kinds of situations. So no, he would dead or on his way out, if the right person was behind the gun. I know for a fact that if someone was going to stab me and was 21 feet away it would take him at a dead run 3.5-4 secs ( my wife timed the run )to reach me.  Now some of you say, “that is a short time wow 4 secs no way that’s too fast".  Now I will show how... 

I takes my hand .5 secs to get to my gun (sweet shoulder rig) at the same time I am turning my left shoulder towards him. I pull the my gun it takes 1.3 secs to be out and at the ready, while this is happening my right leg is slide back to support my weight,  Point ,aim, shoot .8 secs. Now all this is happening at the same time and trust me when I say this if you are shot with 40 cal bullets you will be thrown down like redheaded stepchild. Now let us add this up.

  .5
1.3
  .8
-----

2.6 secs to 3.5-4 secs    Bad guy DEAD I am alive

.5 secs can determine if you live or die.

Now for your sake ill thrown in that I am no regular "civilian".
I come from a long line of military personal
My Grandfather a Marine
My Father a Master Gunnery Sergeant in the Marines was one of the first marines to be sent to Vietnam before the war started.  Look it up and then you will understand what im telling you.
My three uncles also served in the Marines/Air force before and during the Vietnam War.
Me, Sergeant U.S.Army and by a few hints you may be able to tell what I did in the Army.

Now this test was done with controlled subjects, now i'm not saying that everyone (including me) be able to do this every time but 9 out of 10 times the outcome was the same. Then you will most likely say what if the man is tall, ok six feet per sec per step that is 3.5 secs. Now also throw in that the fact if a man is running at you, you will move back thus giving you some more time. Therefore, I will say that I will disagree with your statement.

Last edited by {SiR}_XsnipeR01 (2005-12-07 06:31:00)

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