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Poll

Should the US stop helping countries that don't like them?

Should the US stop funding to those countries? 66% 66% - 71 33% 33% - 35
Are you American? 61% 61% - 65 38% 38% - 41
Total: 106
2006-03-22 22:52:26
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
We are all getting above ourselves here.

Before we say OMG!!!1!!!1 The Koran and Bible preach violence (or the other way round), we have to remember that we are talking about a culture that is millenia old. They do not see the things as we do.

As recently as a hundred years ago, war was seen as an excellent way to end conflict.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-03-22 22:58:47
Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|6864|Cherry Pie

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Marconius wrote:

The holy wars in the OT
The Wars in Joshua's story - destruction of Jericho, Israelites against the Canaanites

It is worth pointing out that the actual term "Holy War" does not appear in the translations of the OT, but that is just a matter of semantics.  "Yahweh's battles" appears, as do several events of violence carried out in the name of Yahweh
"Yahweh's battles" does not exist either.  And since "holy war" does not appear in the OT I guess I can continue posting. 

The point I was making is the Bible does not command Christians to go and make war against other people but the koran does just that.  The wars in the OT are during that specific time against an enemy of the Jewish people.  To call the wars in the OT holy wars in the context of the koran would be absurd.

Quran:
"O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand," (Quran 8:65).

"O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)," (Quran 9:123).

"...the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist... 61Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering. 62(Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah, (Quran 33:60-62).
You should change your name from "Wannabe_tank_whore" to "Post_quoting_whore"...  And no one really cares about your little "grammar" corrections before.  Many of the people posting on this forum are using English as a second language.  Besides, its a forum, not a history report.  Calm down and go drink a mocha latte at Starbucks there skipper.
2006-03-22 23:00:46
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
What on earth is he doing that is untoward (about quoting)?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-03-22 23:34:57
2ndLt.Tucker
If you can read this, your already dead
+33|6922|Stillwater, Ok
Ok vote me in as the next President ill fix all the bitching....All our money goes to us...well still trade and export but no more hand out to countries that are suffering and ungrateful towards us.  We wont play world police anymore. Well attack those who threaten us and then leave them in chaos.  Let the "UN" actually do their own policing...oh yeah well pull the funding from the UN to save our taxpayers a couple billion a year.  We fund 90% of the UN anyway so then it will crumble.  Well keep developing our technology leaving everyone behind in the dust to where those who do want to fight us won't stand a chance in hell.  Even if we become an Isolationist nation again I think the world would bitch how we dont share our luxuries with everyone else.  World disaster happens so what deal with it yourselves. No matter what we do we always are critisized.  Its like a damn passenger telling you how to drive a standard when they have no clue how to put it in 1st gear.  I'm sick all the bad mouthing...any other americans feel this way cause I am normally a very calm person and open to compromises but hell even those get critisized by the world.
2006-03-23 02:17:49
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6893

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

Ok vote me in as the next President ill fix all the bitching....All our money goes to us...well still trade and export but no more hand out to countries that are suffering and ungrateful towards us.  We wont play world police anymore. Well attack those who threaten us and then leave them in chaos.  Let the "UN" actually do their own policing...oh yeah well pull the funding from the UN to save our taxpayers a couple billion a year.  We fund 90% of the UN anyway so then it will crumble.  Well keep developing our technology leaving everyone behind in the dust to where those who do want to fight us won't stand a chance in hell.  Even if we become an Isolationist nation again I think the world would bitch how we dont share our luxuries with everyone else.  World disaster happens so what deal with it yourselves. No matter what we do we always are critisized.  Its like a damn passenger telling you how to drive a standard when they have no clue how to put it in 1st gear.  I'm sick all the bad mouthing...any other americans feel this way cause I am normally a very calm person and open to compromises but hell even those get critisized by the world.
It's actually about 24%.  And you'll have a hard time sharing your luxuries if you do start a policy of economic nationalism:  Without your overseas wage-slave labour and sweatshops no more cheap cars, computers, clothes or shoes.  See that sticker on the back of the PC you are typing with... 'Made In China'.  Note that I'm not pretending that my PC wasn't made by cheap labour, I just admit that it's not very fair that different people round the globe are rewarded differently for the same work and want to make a change.

Here's the UN finance makeup: http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tab … sess05.htm

And here's an analogy to US government compromise:  Offering a reacharound while raping someone in the arse.
2006-03-23 06:32:57
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6998|MA, USA

Spark wrote:

We are all getting above ourselves here.

Before we say OMG!!!1!!!1 The Koran and Bible preach violence (or the other way round), we have to remember that we are talking about a culture that is millenia old. They do not see the things as we do.

As recently as a hundred years ago, war was seen as an excellent way to end conflict.
I don't accept 'culture' as an excuse to initiate acts of violence, and I don't accept 'religion' as a justification for the same.

I'm still waiting to see a definitive quote from the Koran or the Bible in which the text explicitly encourages violence to further the religion.

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

And here's an analogy to US government compromise:  Offering a reacharound while raping someone in the arse.
Not necessarily disagreeing, but wondering what specifically you are referring to here.
2006-03-23 09:59:37
Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|6864|Cherry Pie

Spark wrote:

What on earth is he doing that is untoward (about quoting)?
He was trying to be an English teacher on a BF2 forum!  And quoting like 5 people at once in a post...  You better watch out, he might correct your bad English!
2006-03-23 14:28:54
Renegade2k9
Member
+0|6906|Brooklyn, New York, USA

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

Ok vote me in as the next President ill fix all the bitching....All our money goes to us...well still trade and export but no more hand out to countries that are suffering and ungrateful towards us.  We wont play world police anymore. Well attack those who threaten us and then leave them in chaos.  Let the "UN" actually do their own policing...oh yeah well pull the funding from the UN to save our taxpayers a couple billion a year.  We fund 90% of the UN anyway so then it will crumble.  Well keep developing our technology leaving everyone behind in the dust to where those who do want to fight us won't stand a chance in hell.  Even if we become an Isolationist nation again I think the world would bitch how we dont share our luxuries with everyone else.  World disaster happens so what deal with it yourselves. No matter what we do we always are critisized.  Its like a damn passenger telling you how to drive a standard when they have no clue how to put it in 1st gear.  I'm sick all the bad mouthing...any other americans feel this way cause I am normally a very calm person and open to compromises but hell even those get critisized by the world.
You got my vote, screw these whiny bitches. I wish these people would come here and say these things to my face so I could re-arrange their faces.
2006-03-23 15:47:01
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6893

Renegade2k9 wrote:

You got my vote, screw these whiny bitches. I wish these people would come here and say these things to my face so I could re-arrange their faces.
Shall I give you may paypal details so you can send me the money for the flight?  I'd tell you what I think to your face any day of the week.  You probably would resort to violence given that you lack any cohesive argument.  Everyone knows that underneath the tough exterior a bully presents is a whimpering child who never learned to make friends.
2006-03-23 17:43:14
Renegade2k9
Member
+0|6906|Brooklyn, New York, USA
LOL, again another person that acts like they know me. Don't bother me though, I know what I am don't need some asshole with too much time to tell me. It's pointless to argue with someone that thinks they are right, you are one of those people. I should stick to my regular forums where people aren't out to discredit me and don't get pissed off because I don't agree with people that think we are evil and stupid. Don't tell me otherwise I seen enough on this website to believe what I said. It's all prejudice, simple as that.

Last edited by Renegade2k9 (2006-03-23 18:11:08)

2006-03-24 06:00:29
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6893

Renegade2k9 wrote:

LOL, again another person that acts like they know me. Don't bother me though, I know what I am don't need some asshole with too much time to tell me. It's pointless to argue with someone that thinks they are right, you are one of those people. I should stick to my regular forums where people aren't out to discredit me and don't get pissed off because I don't agree with people that think we are evil and stupid. Don't tell me otherwise I seen enough on this website to believe what I said. It's all prejudice, simple as that.
Don't threaten me with violence for expressing my views and expect me to take it lying down.  You stick to your regular forums then, and leave mature debate for mature people.

BTW, care to list any regular forums I've missed and I'll gladly express my views and counter any false claims you make there as well, if I find the time and the discussion dries up here:

psp411
section8gaming
xfire
bashanything
thegreenbutton

Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-03-24 06:00:43)

2006-03-24 10:12:43
Renegade2k9
Member
+0|6906|Brooklyn, New York, USA
Well sadly in the end violence is the only way things work. You are just going to keep bitching and pushing your believes on me. So this debate becomes endless. Your just talk and no action, that doesn't work in the real world. I will talk where I want and say what I want just like you will. You are not mature, you said enough to say otherwise. If you don't like what I say don't respond too bad if you don't like it little you can do little to stop me. You know I can't touch you, the only way I would if you came here and you try to push your believes on me. Sounds like I scared you though lol. Don't worry though I am probably not coming back to write a response your too stubborn to speak with anyway.
2006-03-26 17:04:36
TheBigXerox
Member
+5|6855|United States of America

Spark wrote:

Can someone name ONE developed country that is NOT in debt?

Please?

Anybody?
Canada is the only G8 nation in history to not have a global debt. Good for them in my opinion!
2006-03-26 17:37:48
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6894|United States of America
UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

All Christians believe Non-Christians are going to hell.  The Bible has twice as many violent passages as the Qu'ran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c … quran.html

And before you say that all the encouragement and incitement to violence is in the Old Testament and the New Testament is nothing but peace and love, maybe you could explain this:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

So basically whatever racist, non-sensicial gibberish you are wishing on the Muslim population of the world you are also wishing on the Christian population, by definition.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
I'm not Christian, but was currious and went to the New Testament site, and even the paraphrased crap on there said nothing about Christians should go and kill or harm people....... Just a bunch of nonsense about how Jesus or God is gonna kick your ass for doing this or that.

Could this be the fundemental difference in the religions. 

Quran tells its followers to carry out punishments in Gods name and the Bible just tells everyone how God will punish them for not being good.

Seems to be the case if you look at the people who belong to each religion.  I have been annoyed by Christians trying to save me from the wrath of God, but they never cut off my head so they could get a piece of ass in heaven.
2006-03-26 21:19:06
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
It is my belief that the first people to be thrown in to hell in judgement day are those who put together the Bible and the Koran.

Because I think something's been a bit twisted here.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-03-27 05:56:55
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7017

Spark wrote:

It is my belief that the first people to be thrown in to hell in judgement day are those who put together the Bible and the Koran.

Because I think something's been a bit twisted here.
I thought you didn't believe in God?  How can there be a Hell if He doesn't exist?
2006-03-27 07:48:05
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6893

Major_Spittle wrote:

I'm not Christian, but was currious and went to the New Testament site, and even the paraphrased crap on there said nothing about Christians should go and kill or harm people....... Just a bunch of nonsense about how Jesus or God is gonna kick your ass for doing this or that.

Could this be the fundemental difference in the religions. 

Quran tells its followers to carry out punishments in Gods name and the Bible just tells everyone how God will punish them for not being good.

Seems to be the case if you look at the people who belong to each religion.  I have been annoyed by Christians trying to save me from the wrath of God, but they never cut off my head so they could get a piece of ass in heaven.
No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition (these days).  But since Christianity (like any religion) is open to interpretation you still get people doing violence in it's name, even today... just look at the abortion clinic terrorists.  http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

In my opinion there is no fundamental difference between any of the major religions, but in nations which are less technologically advanced or less economically developed there is often a much harsher interpretation of the laws, as fear is just an effective control system as the Police State system we seem to be heading towards in the West.  You can't say that Islam is fundamentally evil, only that fundamentalists do evil in the name of Islam.  You can offer encouragement and motivation for change, but cannot blame a entire religion for violence.  Don't forget that excessive and horrific violence is also done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people, would you blame this on abuse of power to maintain control or Judaism itself?

EDIT:

P.S., I think hell would be being stuck in heaven with no-one but Christians to talk to.... but that's just my interpretation

Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-03-27 07:49:47)

2006-03-27 08:01:17
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7017

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

I'm not Christian, but was currious and went to the New Testament site, and even the paraphrased crap on there said nothing about Christians should go and kill or harm people....... Just a bunch of nonsense about how Jesus or God is gonna kick your ass for doing this or that.

Could this be the fundemental difference in the religions. 

Quran tells its followers to carry out punishments in Gods name and the Bible just tells everyone how God will punish them for not being good.

Seems to be the case if you look at the people who belong to each religion.  I have been annoyed by Christians trying to save me from the wrath of God, but they never cut off my head so they could get a piece of ass in heaven.
No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition (these days).  But since Christianity (like any religion) is open to interpretation you still get people doing violence in it's name, even today... just look at the abortion clinic terrorists.  http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

In my opinion there is no fundamental difference between any of the major religions, but in nations which are less technologically advanced or less economically developed there is often a much harsher interpretation of the laws, as fear is just an effective control system as the Police State system we seem to be heading towards in the West.  You can't say that Islam is fundamentally evil, only that fundamentalists do evil in the name of Islam.  You can offer encouragement and motivation for change, but cannot blame a entire religion for violence.  Don't forget that excessive and horrific violence is also done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people, would you blame this on abuse of power to maintain control or Judaism itself?

EDIT:

P.S., I think hell would be being stuck in heaven with no-one but Christians to talk to.... but that's just my interpretation
You say the Inquisition was Christian yet fail to point out that it was to silence those who speak out against the pope who is catholic. Strange.

You are from England yet you use we and the West together.  Stange. 

You claim "excessive and horrific violence" "done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people" yet offer no proof.  Stange.  Here is the "excessive and horrific violence" "done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … =pallywood


How can we expect to listen to you when all you type are lies and half truths?
2006-03-27 08:15:26
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6893

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

You say the Inquisition was Christian yet fail to point out that it was to silence those who speak out against the pope who is catholic. Strange.
Sorry, did I miss something?  Catholics are Christian.  Most of the Christians I know say that are Catholic.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

You are from England yet you use we and the West together.  Stange.
You really are that ignorant, that you don't what the Western World consists of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_west

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

You claim "excessive and horrific violence" "done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people" yet offer no proof.  Stange.  Here is the "excessive and horrific violence" "done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … =pallywood


How can we expect to listen to you when all you type are lies and half truths?
I don't even need to bother posting links for this.  You can find whatever propaganda you feel like so you can justify American support, but I can't be bothered to point you towards the numerous sources to the contrary, so I'll rephrase the question:  IF the State of Israel was responsible for excessive and bloody violence would that mean that you would try to blame the entire religion of Judaism, or just those responsible for the violence?

And I don't expect someone like you to listen to anyone, let alone me.
2006-03-27 08:22:34
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7017

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

You say the Inquisition was Christian yet fail to point out that it was to silence those who speak out against the pope who is catholic. Strange.
Sorry, did I miss something?  Catholics are Christian.  Most of the Christians I know say that are Catholic.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

You are from England yet you use we and the West together.  Stange.
You really are that ignorant, that you don't what the Western World consists of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_west

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

You claim "excessive and horrific violence" "done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people" yet offer no proof.  Stange.  Here is the "excessive and horrific violence" "done by the State of Israel against the Palestinian people" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … =pallywood


How can we expect to listen to you when all you type are lies and half truths?
I don't even need to bother posting links for this.  You can find whatever propaganda you feel like so you can justify American support, but I can't be bothered to point you towards the numerous sources to the contrary, so I'll rephrase the question:  IF the State of Israel was responsible for excessive and bloody violence would that mean that you would try to blame the entire religion of Judaism, or just those responsible for the violence?

And I don't expect someone like you to listen to anyone, let alone me.
Ask your catholic friends who the holy father is. 

Define your context, "The term Western world or "the West" can have multiple meanings depending on its context."

Watch the video if you're so right.
2006-03-27 08:41:40
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6893

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Ask your catholic friends who the holy father is.
Shall I ask them if they read the New Testament as well?

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Define your context, "The term Western world or "the West" can have multiple meanings depending on its context."
STFU.  It was obvious what context I was talking in when I said we were heading towards a Police State in the West, you were just trying to pick holes in every word I say and that was the best you could come up with.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Watch the video if you're so right.
Just have.  And I've researched the researcher:

http://israeloncampuscoalition.org/speakers/rlandes.htm
"Dr. Richard Landes:
A proud progressive and lover of Israel, Professor Landes explains how leftists, if they are to take their values seriously, must take stock of how much the crisis in the Middle East is driven by ideologies in the Arab and Muslim world that threaten the essence of liberalism. Landes emphasizes that empathy, even sympathy, does not mean projecting our values and intentions onto others; it means listening carefully to what they say; and it most certainly does not mean accepting, or explaining away what we hear. The liberal who cannot acknowledge and confront the virulent anti-Semitism that is rampant in the Arab world today, says Landes, does neither the Arab world nor Americans any good."

It would be obvious to anyone that by saying Muslim and Arab ideologies are to blame for the crisis and Judaism has nothing to account for, that he is just as biased in the opposite direction.  So obviously his website designed to discredit all reports by Palestinians of violence by Israeli's is completely unbiased and fair towards both views.  Oh, and just to save the confusion that sarcasm seems to cause on this site:  I am actually saying he is trying to put all the blame on the Palestinians for problems which both sides must accept responsibility for.  And you've still ignored my question!
2006-03-27 08:43:53
Rygar
Canucklehead
+69|6886|Nova Scotia

TheBigXerox wrote:

Spark wrote:

Can someone name ONE developed country that is NOT in debt?

Please?

Anybody?
Canada is the only G8 nation in history to not have a global debt. Good for them in my opinion!
Canada does have a global debt (around 483 billion I think).
Currently (and for the last few years) we have a surplus revenue as opposed to a negative, which is what you might be thinking of.
2006-03-27 09:05:49
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6998|MA, USA
This discussion appears to have digressed a bit.
2006-03-27 10:28:54
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|7017

UnOriginalNuttah wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Ask your catholic friends who the holy father is.
Shall I ask them if they read the New Testament as well?

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Define your context, "The term Western world or "the West" can have multiple meanings depending on its context."
STFU.  It was obvious what context I was talking in when I said we were heading towards a Police State in the West, you were just trying to pick holes in every word I say and that was the best you could come up with.

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Watch the video if you're so right.
Just have.  And I've researched the researcher:

http://israeloncampuscoalition.org/speakers/rlandes.htm
"Dr. Richard Landes:
A proud progressive and lover of Israel, Professor Landes explains how leftists, if they are to take their values seriously, must take stock of how much the crisis in the Middle East is driven by ideologies in the Arab and Muslim world that threaten the essence of liberalism. Landes emphasizes that empathy, even sympathy, does not mean projecting our values and intentions onto others; it means listening carefully to what they say; and it most certainly does not mean accepting, or explaining away what we hear. The liberal who cannot acknowledge and confront the virulent anti-Semitism that is rampant in the Arab world today, says Landes, does neither the Arab world nor Americans any good."

It would be obvious to anyone that by saying Muslim and Arab ideologies are to blame for the crisis and Judaism has nothing to account for, that he is just as biased in the opposite direction.  So obviously his website designed to discredit all reports by Palestinians of violence by Israeli's is completely unbiased and fair towards both views.  Oh, and just to save the confusion that sarcasm seems to cause on this site:  I am actually saying he is trying to put all the blame on the Palestinians for problems which both sides must accept responsibility for.  And you've still ignored my question!
Ask them if they read the Bible period.

To answer your question, I'll ask you one.  Why do you ask rhetorical questions?  You've already blamed them both in your question.  Or can you not see that when a crowded mall or diner is the target of palestinians that the israelis have a right to defend themselves.  I guess in your genius intellect you left that out.
2006-03-27 22:54:48
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

Spark wrote:

It is my belief that the first people to be thrown in to hell in judgement day are those who put together the Bible and the Koran.

Because I think something's been a bit twisted here.
I thought you didn't believe in God?  How can there be a Hell if He doesn't exist?
Quiet, thy perfectionist!
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman

 

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