I2elik
Member
+12|6748|Perth, Western Australia
Before I state my question, I will say right here, that this is not an Anti-American thread, more of a question about certain well..over exploitation of your Constitution.

One day, I got bored, so I went around on wikipedia and was watching Law and Order on TV, so suddenly it's about a family that is Neo Nazi, and they deny the holocaust. So I search 'Holocaust Denial', it comes up with one article, a darn long one at that. Talking about various statements that Neo-Nazis in a few western countries, specifically the US, the US Neo-Nazis argue that this is their right to freedom of speech to say that the media is run by Jews, the footage of near skeletons in the camps was faked, and was in fact, a POW camp liberated during the war, and was excessively overexaggerated and so on and so forth. I didn't start this to talk just about Neo-Nazis either, what about the KKK? They seem to say they're expressing free speech by despising African Americans, Asians and other racial "inequalities" compared to whites.

I was pretty confused by this, so I searched for a version of the constitution talking about Freedom of Speech.
Sorry if this is turning into a history lesson or something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
Here's a link for a definition of Freedom of Speech

The First Amendment addresses the rights of freedom of speech and the press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right of petition. It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting the establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion. Americans refer to these rights collectively as "The Five Freedoms".

In my opinion, this is exploitation:
This picture's a bit old, but it shows what people see as "Free Speech"
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Martyrmaul/180px-KKK_holocaust_a_zionist_hoax.jpg

A more modern one: The band "Prussian Blue" which alot of you Americans might be familiar with.
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Martyrmaul/180px-American_band_Prussian_Blue.jpg

Of course, being an Australian, I'm not really familiar with American laws, but you'd think things like these would be banned? There's a limit to freedom of speech..
dubbs
Member
+105|6627|Lexington, KY
There is a limit to the freedom of speech, but it is a huge debate over where it ends.  I do not know if you are fimilar with the debate over the GTA games in the USA, but that is one of the most recent debates over free speech.  Some of the things that I know that are "censored" are thinks like the KKK can not rally at certain events.  For example, most American cities hold a parade on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, the KKK usally try to march on this day but are denied each year.  (They are denied because it would create a riot.)  Another thing, certain words can not be spoken on public (free) TV or radio.

Edit:  Personally, I do think some things, like the ones you posted along with some other ones, should be banned.  Below is the actual First Admentment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

If you go be what it says, it does not say we can say what ever we want, but Congress can not make laws that will deny us the ability to say what we want.  An example of this during past American wars, I think before the Vietnam War, the press was censored and could not say anything bad about our leaders.  This has since changed, because of the First Amendment.

Edit Again:  Also, just because some people say thinks like the Holocust never happened does not mean that we all believe that.  The minority, and sometimes crazy people, stand out a lot more then the norm, or at least they get noticed more.

Last edited by dubbs (2006-03-08 01:03:01)

I2elik
Member
+12|6748|Perth, Western Australia
Heh, forgot about the "Hot Coffee" incident, about that, who the fuck cares if a horny 13 year old looks at a pixelated digital tit? Not me sir.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6690|San Francisco
You can't legislate morality.  We are allowed to think and say what we want, no matter how offensive.  It's not exploitation, it's just that their views happen to be quite ass-backwards to the current social view, hence it becomes a moral issue.  You don't have to agree with them, and if you don't like what they are saying, you have the freedom to not listen.
It becomes fully illegal when this leads to physical violence, such as lynch mobs, L.A. riots, or the persecution of homosexuals, etc.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6670|Canberra, AUS
I disagree. I think derogatory and misleading speech, as well as serious sedition, should be disallowed.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
ddknight31
Member
+12|6647
If you start disallowing any speech then why not all of it. Some may misuse the freedom of speech but the majority of us use it well and with morals. Do not punish the majority for the ignorance and misgivings of the minority. And the girls with the Hitler happyfaces is more sad then aggravating, sad because they know that the image will get a negative response from people.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6670|Canberra, AUS
However, the majority of us will not openly use racism in public. Unfourtunately, some do.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
dubbs
Member
+105|6627|Lexington, KY

ddknight31 wrote:

If you start disallowing any speech then why not all of it. Some may misuse the freedom of speech but the majority of us use it well and with morals. Do not punish the majority for the ignorance and misgivings of the minority. And the girls with the Hitler happyfaces is more sad then aggravating, sad because they know that the image will get a negative response from people.
Two comments on this.  The girls were taught that Hitler's ideas are a good thing.  I saw a 20/20, or something like that, on them.  They have been raised to think that this is what the rest of the world believes.  Their parents even helped them create songs about the Holocust and how "great" it was for them. 

Anther thing, the minority allows control the majority.  This is very true to the present.  In high school, I had to have a dress code, due to the Columbine Shootings.  The school system said that it was to stop children from poor families getting picked on.  I was one of those poor children and I did not get picked on that much because of the way I dressed.  This also did not stop the teens from picking on their peers, they then picked on them because of the way they looked, or acted.  The minority of people who are getting Goverment Aid, and do not help themselves, cause the majority of people to pay more taxes, and break the system for when the majority needs it, like if they are unemployed.  So current history, within the last 100 or so years, shows us that the minority will always rule the majority if the world does not change.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6712
Freedom of speach really isnt freedom of speach, u cant go running around and yell fire 7 times really loud and call that freedom of speach. Freedom of speach means ppl have the right to debate, but not being rascist while that...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6754|MA, USA

I2elik wrote:

The First Amendment addresses the rights of freedom of speech and the press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right of petition. It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting the establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion. Americans refer to these rights collectively as "The Five Freedoms".

In my opinion, this is exploitation:
This picture's a bit old, but it shows what people see as "Free Speech"
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/M … t_hoax.jpg

A more modern one: The band "Prussian Blue" which alot of you Americans might be familiar with.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/M … n_Blue.jpg

Of course, being an Australian, I'm not really familiar with American laws, but you'd think things like these would be banned? There's a limit to freedom of speech..
Ok, you don't like what those people are saying, but if they are not causing actual harm, it is free speech and must be allowed.  The only speech which can be curbed is Slander and Libel, and the standards for those is that they cause ACTUAL, demonstrable harm to someone (perhaps diminishing their ability to earn a living by destroying their reputation).

Speech cannot be banned because people don't like it...if you say, "All speech is free except for 'bad' speech,"  You have, in essence, just said that no speech is free.  SOMEONE will label just about anything one can say as 'bad.'

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