The guys in armor who stop in the alleys at Kanarkand fully know what they are doing.-=Marli.Man=- wrote:
but mostly u even dont know that u spawnkilled ur enemy!!!
absolutly!!!!!CBRad929 wrote:
The guys in armor who stop in the alleys at Kanarkand fully know what they are doing.-=Marli.Man=- wrote:
but mostly u even dont know that u spawnkilled ur enemy!!!
I couldnt have said it any better myself.CBRad929 wrote:
After skimming this thread just had to add my $.02.
I think that RtCW:ET had it right with a limited spawn protection of a few seconds that was also actually out of the direct line of fire.
1) This prevented most people from ever camping the spawn. If you were in an enemy spawn point when people spawned, you were toast. This greatly detracts from people accruing very easy points and not trying to help the team out. Basically you are making it more easy to die while trying to spawn camp than it is to make points.
2) Regarding the whole "Well spawn at another point" issue. Not always a great idea. I have played on maps where the only available spawn point is being camped with armor and people trying to rack up their kill score. No one can move, including squad leaders.
3) I do want to say that I am not condoning having spawnpoints on top of a flag. As a matter of fact I do believe that the flag needs to be seperate from spawn points.
4) Two seconds is actually enough time to protect yourself and yet not give an advantage in abusign the system.
5) "Quit and find another server." - I think that really its a problem with gameplay that needs to be fixed. Why is it that almost every other FPS has some kind of Spawn protection except for BF2?
Opinion:
1) I will actually persue people that are intentionally trying to spawncamp, to try and reinforce the idea that this isnt going to be an easy kill zone.
2) I do think there is a delay inbetween when an opponent sees you spawn and when you can actually do something. My question is whether you spawn prior to you seeing the change (ie your able to move, thus why you dont have a chance to react before you die again).
Suggested fix:
1) Make the spawn points inside "bunkers" where there are at least 2 exits that are 90 degrees to the actual spawn in addition to a 2 second invulnerability. This will prevent: a) Instantly dieing where you spawn as artillery begins to drop. b) Prevents people from standing on one side of the bunker and shooting through the entire spawn (both infantry and vehicles). c) Prevent the invulnerability from being abused, as you will actually have to leave the bunker to kill.
Same goes for one whom spawns in strike @ karkand in the first base which is being over run! Oh and by the way, you have three roads that run along al spawn points which vehicles just have to take, have you ever considered the fact that the first base for the MEC is a nightmare to defend? High ground from the American Side no high points on the MEC side wich are outstanding to defend against the Americans. Why would EA make a fortress of the first base. I know that the balancing in CW:ET was in that sence way of, too many choke points but you won't hear pplz complain about choke points.CBRad929 wrote:
The guys in armor who stop in the alleys at Kanarkand fully know what they are doing.-=Marli.Man=- wrote:
but mostly u even dont know that u spawnkilled ur enemy!!!
1. Spawn camping is a lack of team work, if it happens then nobody takes the effort to eliminate the camper. Communication is not that difficult. Why change something of which both sides experience equal? And I guess that these bunkers can and will be used for spawncamping, never ever underestimate the human creativity.CBRad929 wrote:
After skimming this thread just had to add my $.02.
I think that RtCW:ET had it right with a limited spawn protection of a few seconds that was also actually out of the direct line of fire.
1) This prevented most people from ever camping the spawn. If you were in an enemy spawn point when people spawned, you were toast. This greatly detracts from people accruing very easy points and not trying to help the team out. Basically you are making it more easy to die while trying to spawn camp than it is to make points.
2) Regarding the whole "Well spawn at another point" issue. Not always a great idea. I have played on maps where the only available spawn point is being camped with armor and people trying to rack up their kill score. No one can move, including squad leaders.
3) I do want to say that I am not condoning having spawnpoints on top of a flag. As a matter of fact I do believe that the flag needs to be seperate from spawn points.
4) Two seconds is actually enough time to protect yourself and yet not give an advantage in abusign the system.
5) "Quit and find another server." - I think that really its a problem with gameplay that needs to be fixed. Why is it that almost every other FPS has some kind of Spawn protection except for BF2?
Opinion:
1) I will actually persue people that are intentionally trying to spawncamp, to try and reinforce the idea that this isnt going to be an easy kill zone.
2) I do think there is a delay inbetween when an opponent sees you spawn and when you can actually do something. My question is whether you spawn prior to you seeing the change (ie your able to move, thus why you dont have a chance to react before you die again).
Suggested fix:
1) Make the spawn points inside "bunkers" where there are at least 2 exits that are 90 degrees to the actual spawn in addition to a 2 second invulnerability. This will prevent: a) Instantly dieing where you spawn as artillery begins to drop. b) Prevents people from standing on one side of the bunker and shooting through the entire spawn (both infantry and vehicles). c) Prevent the invulnerability from being abused, as you will actually have to leave the bunker to kill.
2. Too bad, especially when you just login. Not my style though and it never hapens to me beacause we always work with a firebrigade (german WWII doctrine). Oh and don't take this personal plz, but someone has to lose.
3. I never ever spawned right at the flag, I am kind a missing your point?
4. Yeah, guess you missed my question on that one, what happens when we are fighting and a 2 sec. shield spawns between us?
5. EA stated that it would do nothing against "spawn"camping and "spawn" killing. So use it or choose not to abuse it. Or in other words, can you make it work fot your team?
On your opinion.
1. That is the spirit, that should also be the reason why this whole discussion is useless.
2. You are right about that and very wrong. I will not tell you how it works, ask phis180, he should know how it works after al his gaming experienc, and hey a am called multiple times a n00b by him, let's say I don't get spawnkilled. Pherhaps 5 times in a 1000 deaths.
I took the liberty to read the posts again and noticed this statement by phis180
Yeah common sense would do the trick.pish180 wrote:
Personally with this much conterversy over 1 topic (spawn protection), something should be implimented.
common sense??? I use common sense... spawn camping is wrong, and i dont do it intentonally.
Common sense would also tell you that it takes no skill...
Common Sense would also tell you it is not helping your team but only your stats.
Common sense would also tell you that it takes no skill...
Common Sense would also tell you it is not helping your team but only your stats.
Last edited by pish180 (2005-10-01 07:14:46)
There is no such thing as spawn killing or camping in this game. The reason being is that the spawns are an objective, therefore, if you chose to spawn at a hot spot, your choice. In UNCAPTURABLE spawn cases, yes, it is an issue, but can easily be fixed by placing an CONSTANT undestroyable UAV over the HQ of each team.
It is taken advantage of to much in urban maps. that is the problem. Also It is up to Battlefield what subspawn pt u are put at. NOT the USER.
Also the object is not to make them spawn other places by repeatedly spawn camping, it is to MAKE them spawn in another place... BY TAKING THE FLAG. Apparently spawn campers dont seem to relaize that, becasue it is their only tatic, and way to get points.
Also the object is not to make them spawn other places by repeatedly spawn camping, it is to MAKE them spawn in another place... BY TAKING THE FLAG. Apparently spawn campers dont seem to relaize that, becasue it is their only tatic, and way to get points.
Last edited by pish180 (2005-10-01 17:25:55)
What do think would happen if in small urban maps, you can only spawn in one location, forcing you to use your squad leaders more effectively, and makeing the spawn camping a minimum, because if would always be floded with hostils. You would still have CP, but they would be a non spawnable CP. Just a thought.
And then all the squad leaders die.... and then they dont live for another 2 seconds again, because some n00bs are spawn camping? Also I am usually the squad leader. I say alive for quite awhile, but still get killed by the rambo GL'er n00b. Then i try to spawn back, and there is a tank, *try again* there is a APC, *try again* artty. Yeah i know i can spawn somewhere else, but that does not help my team out if i am a mile away from the battle. It is way to much in favor of the attacker, and that is not right, needs balancing (aka, some sort of spawn protection).
This thread is still alive???
I have a solution.... if you see pish180 in a game... don't shot him, he just spawned and need a break...
Come on pish, you have over 60K points with a SPM over 2.5 and K/D ratio over 1... God I whish I have your stats...and I am not complaining
Yes we got it, it's frustrating, some people abuse some aspect of the game. And you know what, if EA find a fix for this, it will only create another problem.
I can already hear the complain after the next patch... "Why they changed this and that..."
It's a game, when it gets too frustating on a server, change server, if you are too tired... just hit the power button and go to bed
I have a solution.... if you see pish180 in a game... don't shot him, he just spawned and need a break...
Come on pish, you have over 60K points with a SPM over 2.5 and K/D ratio over 1... God I whish I have your stats...and I am not complaining
Yes we got it, it's frustrating, some people abuse some aspect of the game. And you know what, if EA find a fix for this, it will only create another problem.
I can already hear the complain after the next patch... "Why they changed this and that..."
It's a game, when it gets too frustating on a server, change server, if you are too tired... just hit the power button and go to bed
Last edited by Buzerk1 (2005-10-02 09:08:24)
yeah, that is already my solution. To be honest with ya, i really have not see to many campers lately... And yes, if ea did something to remedy this problem they would surly mess it up worst then it already is...
But i did manage to catch up with [SWAM]RobbieE this w/e
But i did manage to catch up with [SWAM]RobbieE this w/e
Last edited by pish180 (2005-10-02 12:56:52)
Hey Phis180, LOL, guess we dont have to whine against each other about spawncamping, you know my style now and I like yours. But still, I will keep supporting my team as much as I can .
ya. tru tru
My 2 cents:
1) Spawn rapers are usually pretty easy to kill. If they get me once, I can easily respawn with corresponding kit and take them out because now I know where they are and they don't know where i will spawn.
2) Spawn raping with APC or Tank leaves you very vulnerable to anti-tanks kits that will respawn where you can't see them.
3) Noobs are not the ones who spawn rape! To me a noob is somebody who doesn't know how to play the game very well and does "stupid things". Spawn raping is not that easy of a tactic in which to be effective. You need teamwork, a squad leader on whom to spawn and the ability to move around and be accurate with your shots. To those that complain about it, try to do it yourself and then see how well it works for you. Most likely you'll go back to your normal tactics.
4) Spawn raping is a valid tactic when you are in armor. Why? Because it is certain death to enter a control point in armor if you are alone because you will be attacked by anti-tank and c4 from all places. So it is perfectly reasonable to stay outside of the flag and pound the enemy until infantry arrives to take the flag.
5) BF2 is a game that favors those that are on the move and not those who sit in one place and "camp". With radar and UAV, spawn raping can be easily eliminated with teamwork.
6) Spawn somewhere else if there are two APCs and a Tank at your spawn point! Let them waste their soldiers and vehicles sitting around an empty spawn point. All the while your team is getting credit for that spawn point because they aren't capping it!
7) If they make it into your base and base-rape, shame on you for letting them!
Conclusion: "Spawn raping" is part of the game. It is a viable tactic because it reduces the other side's tickets. If you don't do it someone else will do it to you. Personally I think there are far better tactics but that's just my opinion.
1) Spawn rapers are usually pretty easy to kill. If they get me once, I can easily respawn with corresponding kit and take them out because now I know where they are and they don't know where i will spawn.
2) Spawn raping with APC or Tank leaves you very vulnerable to anti-tanks kits that will respawn where you can't see them.
3) Noobs are not the ones who spawn rape! To me a noob is somebody who doesn't know how to play the game very well and does "stupid things". Spawn raping is not that easy of a tactic in which to be effective. You need teamwork, a squad leader on whom to spawn and the ability to move around and be accurate with your shots. To those that complain about it, try to do it yourself and then see how well it works for you. Most likely you'll go back to your normal tactics.
4) Spawn raping is a valid tactic when you are in armor. Why? Because it is certain death to enter a control point in armor if you are alone because you will be attacked by anti-tank and c4 from all places. So it is perfectly reasonable to stay outside of the flag and pound the enemy until infantry arrives to take the flag.
5) BF2 is a game that favors those that are on the move and not those who sit in one place and "camp". With radar and UAV, spawn raping can be easily eliminated with teamwork.
6) Spawn somewhere else if there are two APCs and a Tank at your spawn point! Let them waste their soldiers and vehicles sitting around an empty spawn point. All the while your team is getting credit for that spawn point because they aren't capping it!
7) If they make it into your base and base-rape, shame on you for letting them!
Conclusion: "Spawn raping" is part of the game. It is a viable tactic because it reduces the other side's tickets. If you don't do it someone else will do it to you. Personally I think there are far better tactics but that's just my opinion.
Response to Robbie:[SWAM]RobbieE wrote:
1. Spawn camping is a lack of team work, if it happens then nobody takes the effort to eliminate the camper. Communication is not that difficult. Why change something of which both sides experience equal? And I guess that these bunkers can and will be used for spawncamping, never ever underestimate the human creativity.
2. Too bad, especially when you just login. Not my style though and it never hapens to me beacause we always work with a firebrigade (german WWII doctrine). Oh and don't take this personal plz, but someone has to lose.
3. I never ever spawned right at the flag, I am kind a missing your point?
4. Yeah, guess you missed my question on that one, what happens when we are fighting and a 2 sec. shield spawns between us?
5. EA stated that it would do nothing against "spawn"camping and "spawn" killing. So use it or choose not to abuse it. Or in other words, can you make it work fot your team?
On your opinion.
1. That is the spirit, that should also be the reason why this whole discussion is useless.
2. You are right about that and very wrong. I will not tell you how it works, ask phis180, he should know how it works after al his gaming experienc, and hey a am called multiple times a n00b by him, let's say I don't get spawnkilled. Pherhaps 5 times in a 1000 deaths.
(Just FYI always take my posts as constructive criticism. I hardly ever make personal attacks. )
1) I agree communication works, but usually only with a minority of people on Pubs. Most people are trying to either get awards/badges or just trying to increase their score. I have been guilty of this at times myself. I have to say again, I go back to my RtCW:ET example. Because of the protected "bunkers" for a majority of the spawns, you hardly saw ANY spawncamping. If there was spawncamping, it was infrequent and short lived, because the camper had a lot more to lose than to gain by camping.
2) I agree someone has to lose, but being on the recieving end of a hopeless situtation does not benefit the gaming community as a whole. It reinforces the idea that sitting on-top of a spawnpoint with armor is OK to do when you have no intention of capping the flag and just want to increase your k:d count.
3) Flag ontop of the spawn point was actually a response to someone's idea that having the flag there was giving the defenders an unfair advantage. I was agreeing with them.
4). My point was, you shouldnt have been in the spawn room to begin with. If you are sitting in the spawn room when I appear, you would have been killed. Currently the game favors the camper. When you spawn at that point they have a split second to aim and shoot before you can even move. If you are in armor, camping this is even more emphasized as nothing short of anti-tank or armor can hurt you. If the anti-tank has 2 seconds to line up and shoot, the armor camper will think twice about sitting in a spawn point.
5) "So use it or choose not to abuse it". Thats my point. People are abusing it.
Opinion
1) Its not a useless discussion. Its a valid point.
2) Erm, ok.
FYI
I dont use Noob and Spawn Raper as similar terms. To me Spawn Raper already knows where people spawn and where to best take advantage of that fact with the least amount of personal danger. (shooting fish in a barrel).
Bottom line its just unsportsmanlike (and take it as that and dont turn this conversation into "this is war/realistic. )
PS they call it spawn raping for a reason. Also if it wasnt such a problem, why do so many servers have "dont spawn rape or you may be kicked" in their MOTD field?
Spawn protection?? You mean like a condom?
Wow, you understand what i am saying... finally someone. Everything you have said... I 100% agree with.CBRad929 wrote:
Response to Robbie:[SWAM]RobbieE wrote:
1. Spawn camping is a lack of team work, if it happens then nobody takes the effort to eliminate the camper. Communication is not that difficult. Why change something of which both sides experience equal? And I guess that these bunkers can and will be used for spawncamping, never ever underestimate the human creativity.
2. Too bad, especially when you just login. Not my style though and it never hapens to me beacause we always work with a firebrigade (german WWII doctrine). Oh and don't take this personal plz, but someone has to lose.
3. I never ever spawned right at the flag, I am kind a missing your point?
4. Yeah, guess you missed my question on that one, what happens when we are fighting and a 2 sec. shield spawns between us?
5. EA stated that it would do nothing against "spawn"camping and "spawn" killing. So use it or choose not to abuse it. Or in other words, can you make it work fot your team?
On your opinion.
1. That is the spirit, that should also be the reason why this whole discussion is useless.
2. You are right about that and very wrong. I will not tell you how it works, ask phis180, he should know how it works after al his gaming experienc, and hey a am called multiple times a n00b by him, let's say I don't get spawnkilled. Pherhaps 5 times in a 1000 deaths.
(Just FYI always take my posts as constructive criticism. I hardly ever make personal attacks. )
1) I agree communication works, but usually only with a minority of people on Pubs. Most people are trying to either get awards/badges or just trying to increase their score. I have been guilty of this at times myself. I have to say again, I go back to my RtCW:ET example. Because of the protected "bunkers" for a majority of the spawns, you hardly saw ANY spawncamping. If there was spawncamping, it was infrequent and short lived, because the camper had a lot more to lose than to gain by camping.
2) I agree someone has to lose, but being on the recieving end of a hopeless situtation does not benefit the gaming community as a whole. It reinforces the idea that sitting on-top of a spawnpoint with armor is OK to do when you have no intention of capping the flag and just want to increase your k:d count.
3) Flag ontop of the spawn point was actually a response to someone's idea that having the flag there was giving the defenders an unfair advantage. I was agreeing with them.
4). My point was, you shouldnt have been in the spawn room to begin with. If you are sitting in the spawn room when I appear, you would have been killed. Currently the game favors the camper. When you spawn at that point they have a split second to aim and shoot before you can even move. If you are in armor, camping this is even more emphasized as nothing short of anti-tank or armor can hurt you. If the anti-tank has 2 seconds to line up and shoot, the armor camper will think twice about sitting in a spawn point.
5) "So use it or choose not to abuse it". Thats my point. People are abusing it.
Opinion
1) Its not a useless discussion. Its a valid point.
2) Erm, ok.
FYI
I dont use Noob and Spawn Raper as similar terms. To me Spawn Raper already knows where people spawn and where to best take advantage of that fact with the least amount of personal danger. (shooting fish in a barrel).
Bottom line its just unsportsmanlike (and take it as that and dont turn this conversation into "this is war/realistic. )
PS they call it spawn raping for a reason. Also if it wasnt such a problem, why do so many servers have "dont spawn rape or you may be kicked" in their MOTD field?
I agree with CDRab, and if the spawn killers solely in Karkand were easy to kill, then they wouldn't be on the top foteh leaderboards.
Simple Solution is this If you get spawn killed then chances are your going to lose that check points so dont spawn there again and move to the next closes spawn point and regroup and then attack again.
Also this is not a noob tactic if you have to capture the flag then your doing your job spawn camping and holding off enemy troops.
Also this is not a noob tactic if you have to capture the flag then your doing your job spawn camping and holding off enemy troops.
This isnt always an option. Again this goes back to the problem of "What if this is your only spawn point left AND they are not trying to cap (ie rack up points)?MattD wrote:
Simple Solution is this If you get spawn killed then chances are your going to lose that check points so dont spawn there again and move to the next closes spawn point and regroup and then attack again.
The keyword phrase is "have to capture the flag". 95% of the time, people are not trying to even help capture the flag. They are just sitting and firing in the alleys racking up points.MattD wrote:
Also this is not a noob tactic if you have to capture the flag then your doing your job spawn camping and holding off enemy troops.
Notes:
1) I was in a position last night of playing USMC in a LAV at the front lines. Instead of camping in the alleys, I actually went and circled around the area for a while and then proceeded to cap the 2nd flag. I decided to take the high road, metaphorically speaking and got 4 kills before I was blown up.
2) When spawning on the MEC first flag on Karkand, you will spawn in one of four places. You will always spawn facing "towards" the flag. Thus if you sit with Support or armor as USMC in the furthest outside alleys, you will always have the advantage as the MEC will spawn facing away from you, thus lowering the chances of you getting killed while camping there.