BVC
Member
+325|6694
TL;DR: A nuclear war between India and Pakistan, each using 50 warheads, would significantly reduce global crop yields, depending on the crop/location.

With that in mind, can it be argued that nuclear detonations - even tests - can be regarded as acts of war upon the entire world, due to the detrimental effect on the world's food supply?

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-war-relate … ields.html

War-related climate change would substantially reduce crop yields

Researchers at the University of Wisconsin–Madison and Rutgers University have found that the climate effects of a hypothetical nuclear war between India and Pakistan would greatly reduce yields of staple crops, even in distant countries.

The work, by Mutlu Ozdogan and Chris Kucharik of the Center for Sustainability and the Global Environment in the Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies at UW–Madison and Alan Robock of Rutgers' Center for Environmental Prediction, will appear in an upcoming issue of the journal Climatic Change.

Robock used global climate models to calculate the climate impacts of a conflict between India and Pakistan, each using 50 nuclear weapons.
"This is essentially a climate change experiment, but instead of running a climate change model under a global CO2 scenario, you run it under a soot scenario, where the soot comes from fires from cities and industrial areas burning as a result of the war," explains Ozdogan, a UW–Madison professor of forest and wildlife ecology.

The soot and smoke can travel around the world in the atmosphere and block some of the sunlight that would normally reach the Earth. That leads to cooler temperatures, altered weather and precipitation patterns, and shorter growing seasons.

"We were surprised that there was such a large climate change – climate change unprecedented in recorded human history – even from a war with 50 small nuclear weapons per side, much, much less than one percent of the current nuclear arsenal," says Robock. He adds that the changes also lasted a full decade, much longer than he expected. "The question is, what impact does that have on things that matter to humans, and the most important is our food supply."

The researchers used the climate changes predicted for the Midwest to calculate potential effects on corn and soy production in Iowa, Illinois, Indiana and Missouri. Using climate-based agricultural output models, they compared yields under modern weather patterns and under the war scenario.

They found that the climate effects of nuclear war led to decreases in corn yields of 10 to 40 percent and soy yields of 2 to 20 percent, with the reductions gradually declining over the course of the decade following the war.

"Those changes – in any year – are much larger than the natural variation we might see" due to weather fluctuations alone, Ozdogan says. And unlike gradual environmental changes associated with greenhouse gas accumulation, the rapid onset of a war would not permit farmers or the global economy any time to adapt.

A companion study by Robock and Lili Xia of Rutgers University, also published in Climatic Change, calculated that the same scenario would dramatically reduce rice production in China: an average decrease of 21 percent during each of the first four years after the war and 10 percent less for the next six years.

Such losses add up to a huge impact on regional food supplies that could escalate into wider food shortages and trade breakdowns with dire economic and political consequences, Robock says.

The take-home message, Ozdogan says, is that localized events can have disproportionately large global impacts.
"Hopefully this will never happen," he says, "but if it happens, if the prospect is there, these are some of the results that people could expect."
Mutantbear
Semi Constructive Criticism
+1,431|5963|London, England

50 warheads holy jesus
_______________________________________________________________________________________________ https://i.imgur.com/Xj4f2.png
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5584

water is also wet
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5998|...
If Pakistan and India completely vaporize eachother (which is what happens if they decide to use 50 nukes), I would be surprised if we didn't get a nuclear winter.

Last edited by Shocking (2012-07-03 03:12:05)

inane little opines
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
With that in mind, can it be argued that nuclear detonations - even tests - can be regarded as acts of war upon the entire world, due to the detrimental effect on the world's food supply?
If so then setting your heating to 22C instead of 20, would be an act of war, as the extra coal burned causes acid rain which reduces crop yields.

We shouldn't be doing atmospheric tests, and aren't IIRC.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

Shocking wrote:

If Pakistan and India completely vaporize eachother (which is what happens if they decide to use 50 nukes), I would be surprised if we didn't get a nuclear winter.
Then again there'd be a lot more food to go around as Indians eat a hell of a lot.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6151|what

Mutantbear wrote:

50 warheads holy jesus
50 megatons each.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
tazz.
oz.
+1,338|6173|Sydney | ♥

AussieReaper wrote:

Mutantbear wrote:

50 warheads holy jesus
50 megatons each.
https://i.imgur.com/uPb1z.png
everything i write is a ramble and should not be taken seriously.... seriously.
PrivateVendetta
I DEMAND XMAS THEME
+704|6190|Roma

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shocking wrote:

If Pakistan and India completely vaporize eachother (which is what happens if they decide to use 50 nukes), I would be surprised if we didn't get a nuclear winter.
Then again there'd be a lot more food to go around as Indians eat a hell of a lot.
This. Indians and Pakistani's are like the major population increases and will be for a while
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/29388/stopped%20scrolling%21.png
rdx-fx
...
+955|6590
So,
India & Pakistan are gone,
the production of HFCS gets much more expensive,
US corn subsidies become unsustainably stupid (forcing us to use sugar and wheat, instead of corn shit),
the two uncontrolled middle eastern nuclear powers are depleted of nukes,
countries with more population than sustainable crop area see their economies crippled (China, India, Middle East),
and we reduce "global warming" a few degrees?

I'm failing to see a downside...



Note: Yes, I'm purposely (sarcastically) playing the part of the myopic self-centered American.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-07-03 07:32:27)

eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5258|foggy bottom
so i guess the thousands of nuclear tests that have been conducted over the years were the kinds of nukes that didnt cause global ecological disasters
Tu Stultus Es
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6715

eleven bravo wrote:

so i guess the thousands of nuclear tests that have been conducted over the years were the kinds of nukes that didnt cause global ecological disasters
i heard one more nuke would burn up the atmosphere. but i guess its the lateral location would cause crop crises in neighboring countries but idk im no nuclear scientist, we gotta ask warman and shifty about this.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
rdx-fx
...
+955|6590

Cybargs wrote:

i heard one more nuke would burn up the atmosphere.
Well, I heard that a single nuclear detonation has the potential to set the entire atmosphere on fire!

Robert Oppenheimer, wasn't it?

Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6666

Hmmm.  I think I need to find the group that funded this research.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6713|US
Hm...soot caused by nuclear war being the big issue.  I wonder how they modeled it.  I doubt our records of Hiroshima and Nagasaki soot are that great.  Other than that, the only thing I can think of were the tests conducted in the 1950s, and even those were mostly to find out structural stability against nuclear blasts.  How in the world did they create a global climate model for an event that not only has not happened to scale, but has probably never been extensively recorded on any scale?

Then, you have to factor in the composition of what would be burned, which means you need to know a lot of info about the cities, warhead yield, delivery system specifics, local and global weather patterns, etc.  How did those researchers learn the programmed detonation altitude and yield of deployable Indian and Pakistani nuclear weapons?
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6666

Like I said, I'd like to meet these funders.  I have some research ideas too.
rdx-fx
...
+955|6590

RAIMIUS wrote:

How did those researchers learn the programmed detonation altitude and yield of deployable Indian and Pakistani nuclear weapons?
Probably went with "detonating on the launch stand, turning into a low yield high contamination dirty bomb", considering the advanced state of maintenance and extensive missile knowledge in each country.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6673|Canberra, AUS
I lol'd I must admit
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
BVC
Member
+325|6694
I did consider historical nuclear tests when making the OP, however those didn't all take place at the same time or in the same region, and a large portion (I don't know exactly) were conducted underground.

The article refers to 100 nukes (50 per side not 50 total) going off at (presumably) roughly the same time in the same area, and presumably a mixture of air and ground bursts - unless each side is willing to allow the other to bury nukes in their own territory ahead of time   You have to remember that food loss would be caused not only by reduced sunlight, but also exposure to radioactive dust.

Concerning the effect of the removal of a significant portion of the world's population, I believe India is self-sufficent in that area, removal of the Indian population might actually increase food demand relative to supply if you took into account the global supply reduction.

Last edited by BVC (2012-07-03 23:41:04)

Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|6731|Cambridge, England
Its about smog from fires.

No need to be a nuclear scientist to read the post.

If your nuclear tests consist of blowing up cities then yes they should be considered an act of war.
A2TG2
Hazbeen
+67|4523|at your six
There have been 2000+ nuclear detonations on the planet, so stfu.

The 7 tested countries included in the figure are (ranked from test dates): U.S. (1032), Soviet Union (715 as of 1990), U.K.(45), France (210), China (45), India (4), Pakistan (2).

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_atom … z20MjZf69e
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6630|949

thanks for the insight
BVC
Member
+325|6694
Nice post ATG, pity it doesn't actually answer the question I posed.
A2TG2
Hazbeen
+67|4523|at your six

BVC wrote:

Nice post ATG, pity it doesn't actually answer the question I posed.
The answer is NO.

There has been no greater keeper of the peace than nukes.
If Pakistan actually had them we likely wouldn't be droning them.
If Iran had them we would not be preparing to bomb the snot out of them.
The world survived over two thousand tests and two military detonations.


Weapons of mass destruction equal peace and hence, all nations should have them.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5584

A2TG2 wrote:

If Pakistan actually had them we likely wouldn't be droning them.
Pakistan has been nuclear for awhile

Last edited by Macbeth (2012-07-11 20:45:03)

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