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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Many schools have multiple levels of classes based on aptitude. The issue with having multiple levels of math classes is that there is literally a shortage of math teachers. Filling one position is hard enough. And then funding...etc.

Wealthier schools will of course be better able to provide multi level courses and supports. The irony of the situation is that it is the poorest districts that need to up their support staff, tutors, etc.

Aside from the funding issues I have yet to hear a good solution to the problem of high achieving educators not wanting to teach in the ghetto. Not really fair to send some white girl straight out of school into an unsafe and unsupportive system. I have a white girl cousin who did that and instead of planning to stay in the classroom, she enrolled in an Ivy League principal program. I am so happy for her.
Rich districts and poor districts shouldn't even exist as a distinction in public schools for a country this wealthy. Nor healthcare, addressing malnutrition and hunger, homelessness, inequality in infrastructure, etc. It really is a self-own.

I don't want to ever hear about some cafeteria scooping some poor kid's lunch in the trash because of 45 cents in unpaid debt, but I won't get my hopes up.

Making bad area schools a safe place for teachers isn't something that can be addressed just at the school level. Much wider social issues at play.

e:
The Response: "well I had it bad so by golly they can have it bad too."
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+489|2767

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Many schools have multiple levels of classes based on aptitude. The issue with having multiple levels of math classes is that there is literally a shortage of math teachers. Filling one position is hard enough. And then funding...etc.

Wealthier schools will of course be better able to provide multi level courses and supports. The irony of the situation is that it is the poorest districts that need to up their support staff, tutors, etc.

Aside from the funding issues I have yet to hear a good solution to the problem of high achieving educators not wanting to teach in the ghetto. Not really fair to send some white girl straight out of school into an unsafe and unsupportive system. I have a white girl cousin who did that and instead of planning to stay in the classroom, she enrolled in an Ivy League principal program. I am so happy for her.
Rich districts and poor districts shouldn't even exist as a distinction in public schools for a country this wealthy. Nor healthcare, addressing malnutrition and hunger, homelessness, inequality in infrastructure, etc. It really is a self-own.

I don't want to ever hear about some cafeteria scooping some poor kid's lunch in the trash because of 45 cents in unpaid debt, but I won't get my hopes up.

Making bad area schools a safe place for teachers isn't something that can be addressed just at the school level. Much wider social issues at play.

e:
The Response: "well I had it bad so by golly they can have it bad too."
If you mix poor and rich kids in the same district, the rich parents will yank their kids from the public school, put them in private, and then defund the public schools. Exactly what happened with white parents in the south when schools were desegregated.

I am not 100% clear how it works but the U.S. government is giving districts the ability to provide free lunch and breakfast services for students if they sign up for the USDA program.
The U.S Department of Agriculture is once again serving up the option of free meals in schools nationwide.

With the pandemic putting many Americans in a pinch, the USDA extended the National School Lunch Program Seamless Summer Option (SSO), which is typically only available during the summer months. Many school districts also offered free breakfast and lunches during the last school year.

By continuing the program, students will have options for free meals throughout the 2021-2022 school year in districts that choose to participate.
Some places are proudly declining the money because government welfare blah blah
A Wisconsin school board is under fire for scrapping a free meal program — suggesting that it could make kids “spoiled.”

The Waukesha School District opted out of a federally funded program that provided free lunch to all kids regardless of income in June, arguing that it could leave families “addicted” to free food, according to the Washington Post.

School board member Karin Rajnicek asserted that universal free meals ran the risk of making families “become spoiled,” according to the Post.
Her name is literally Karen. Somebody needs to break her jaw so she can spend some time on a liquid only diet.
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,718|5784|Oxferd Ohire
Got a $4 raise and need to figure out a better title
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

Rich parents are probably already sending their kids to private school, mac. We shouldn't have giant funding disparities between PUBLIC school districts. It really is a part of a big, snowballing problem.
uziq
Member
+405|2500

RTHKI wrote:

Got a $4 raise and need to figure out a better title
I M P E R A T O R
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

Re: mac's deleted post

- teacher shortage, sweeten the deal for teachers, make it easier for people to go to afford college to get certified as one.
- "ideal world," schools should be funded for what they need to have the amount of classrooms they need, courses they need, supplies they need, and staff they need. country is rich enough to do this, instead (and ignoring stereotypical urban hellscapes for the moment) you got your upscale public schools and your podunk public schools.
- other things that need to be addressed: hunger, poverty, homelessness, accessibility to higher education. people with needs met probably less likely to grow up with a developmentally-impaired brain. this will address some of your disruptive people issues over time.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+489|2767
I think schools are getting off loaded with a lot of America's other problems. It really shouldn't be school's responsibility to feed kids 2 out of 3 meals a day. It shouldn't be the government's job at all either. But here we are.

It is scary how much we don't know about the causes of developmental disorders. Can you imagine if we someday found out toothpaste causes autism? Anyhow we do know enough to know that hungry kids have poor outcomes. You could pitch childhood nutrition as a public investment but pig people and all.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

That would suck because a tooth infection can spread to the brain and cause all manner of problems.

I'd consider the "free" (yes, yes, someone pays for it) lunches and breakfasts a good investment from taxpayers. Also partly contest "it isn't the government's job." Not ideally, no, but we can't have 300 million + Americans running around the woods surviving like we did as cavemen. Modern society should compensate. Totally for various welfare programs. Something blue collar conservatives who've struggled their way to stability should be able to sympathize with, but no. Everyone else needs to be doomed to unfairness and misery, tit-for-tat.

Ever read comments from people who are all like "my parents beat me and I turned out great!" as a capstone to particularly unhinged string of commentary?
uziq
Member
+405|2500

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I think schools are getting off loaded with a lot of America's other problems. It really shouldn't be school's responsibility to feed kids 2 out of 3 meals a day. It shouldn't be the government's job at all either. But here we are.

It is scary how much we don't know about the causes of developmental disorders. Can you imagine if we someday found out toothpaste causes autism? Anyhow we do know enough to know that hungry kids have poor outcomes. You could pitch childhood nutrition as a public investment but pig people and all.
schools are 'in loco parentis' for the majority of young children's development, though. children spend basically as much (waking) time in the school environment – to say nothing of boarding schools – than they do in the home. they are thus obviously going to be sites of their emotional and personal development as well as their educational development; schools are important sites of socialization and are about more than just administering a dry body of knowledge from maths/sciences/humanities.

schools in europe manage just fine to feed children at least one square meal a day. it's really a minor tax expense in the grand scheme of things. france, finland, the netherlands, etc, all do a really top-rate job of it for something like a 1/3rd of the price that american schools spend (waste) on food. (this reminds me of your healthcare system: the biggest expenditure of any nation on earth for massively inefficient, decidedly mid-ranking results when considered relative to cost.)

a school canteen is a pretty good place to 'educate' children on balanced diets, good nutrition, proper eating habits, etc. it's a depressing given that many households, especially from precarious backgrounds, will skip on this stuff, essentially riddling children with poor diet and physical/mental problems for their remaining lives – whether it's a mouth full of caries, diabetes, or just poor dieting choices period. i know this sounds like 'socialism' but it's not really a scary restriction of freedom to point out the obvious: every institution which we pass through in our lives, whether schooling in childhood or corporates in adulthood, shape our human behaviour and development.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-11 23:34:24)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,745|5153|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Re: mac's deleted post

- teacher shortage, sweeten the deal for teachers, make it easier for people to go to afford college to get certified as one.
- "ideal world," schools should be funded for what they need to have the amount of classrooms they need, courses they need, supplies they need, and staff they need. country is rich enough to do this, instead (and ignoring stereotypical urban hellscapes for the moment) you got your upscale public schools and your podunk public schools.
- other things that need to be addressed: hunger, poverty, homelessness, accessibility to higher education. people with needs met probably less likely to grow up with a developmentally-impaired brain. this will address some of your disruptive people issues over time.
Planning to make the future a better place is socialist though.
#FreeBritney
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

It's sometimes more complicated than that. Some people think that whatever current flavor-of-the-month conservatism is the best way to make the future better. Which is bolstered by stuff like climate change denialism ("what if the consensus is wrong" is probably more exciting to them than "what if the consensus is right"), or having been assimilated by the likes of Rand during their tender school years. "Socialism bad, Ayn Rand knew. Ayn Rand grew up in Soviet Russia <never mind she was born in '05 and left in '26>. Let me spin the topic into a loose summary of Atlas Shrugged, or Anthem, or whatever."

I think that schools in a way are partly to blame for people's unwillingness to be wrong. Being wrong isn't an opportunity to learn. It's a matter of stress, punishment, humiliation, and bad marks (even science class for crying out loud). The last thing you want to be, or want to admit to, is "wrong." Is it any wonder that some people internalize this into adulthood?

How to handle being incorrect, fail, or lose, is a lesson that sometimes just doesn't get imparted.
uziq
Member
+405|2500
not to defend ayn rand, literally one of the most hapless and indefensible writers/'thinkers' of the last century, but being in russia from 1905–1926 hardly discredits her dim view of the soviet union. she was there during the numerous revolutions and civil strife (bolshevik and menshevik power struggle was roughly contemperaneous to her childhood there; many mensheviks left or were exiled in the same period). the consolidation of soviet power was a bloody and turbulent prologue to the soviet union proper.

vladimir nabokov was also part of the noble, 'white russian' generation who left russia after the revolution and went, via cosmopolitan centres like berlin/paris/london, to the new world and america. a writer of an entirely different genius and calibre who also disavowed the soviet union and communism for his entire life, despite never directly experiencing life under the regime. being there during the early days was clearly enough to see which way the wind was blowing.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-12 01:21:13)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

She did have a good reason to despise communism and write against it. As a teen, she supported Kerensky over the Tsar. And then the Bolsheviks took over from that and the family business was confiscated (e: not the only reason, ofc).

But some of her die-hard fans (who by the way will die on a hill for how great her books are, or won't for a second look at her ideas with an inkling of critical thought), seem to be under the impression that she struggled for many more years under the Soviet Union. Or that she was an infant under Lenin and suffered under Stalin or something, who knows. Either their timelines are seriously mixed up or they're confusing that for her trying to get her family out of the country after she emigrated from it.

I don't think you have to be currently living in a country to have an opinion on the situation there at all, that wasn't my point.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

There seems to be this persistent, unspoken notion in some Rand fans (lots of boomers, gen x-ers, even some millennials I've spoken with), that because she was critical of the Soviet Union, that all her other ideas must sound. This jump is made in conversations missing several points in the connect-the-dots along the way. It's should be glaringly obvious to them, but is overlooked anyway.

I'm at a loss with how to comprehensively argue with it, and I don't know if it's possible with normal conventions. I always feel like I'm getting slapped in the face with the well-worn "Nazis supported animal rights, y'know" comedy trout. OK so animal welfare is bad because of that, nice.

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