Just do what James Kirk did. Offshore your accounts though. See ya in 5. No need for schoolin'.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
I really, really hate the word 'entitlement'. It's right there next to the words 'logic' and 'reason' on the list of words that I hate to hear and read. People use them too flippantly in my opinion. Someone prefacing their argument as 'logical' or calling their actions 'the most reasonable' makes my blood boil. Don't use those words please.
pfff, everything is relative, of course it doesn't cost $0, it costs much much less than others.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
LOL at community college being free. Why should students be separated at the community college level? What happens to people who think they know what they want and enroll into a 4 year school only to realize they have no idea? You're either not college age yet or ignorant to the fact a large chunk of college students change their majors after they are enrolled.
that's the entire point, haha, I've seen a lot of college students drop out of state schools simply BECAUSE they had a change of heart when it comes to majors, and re-enroll in community college. I'd think that they're still figuring things out and should be separated from those who are more serious about using community college to gain a technical education.
What are you talking about? Be smart, household income less than $100K, free ride at Harvard. There are kids going into my son's private high school with mediocre grades getting half their tuition paid for via financial aid.Macbeth wrote:
Society of entitlement old man spiel okay.Ilocano wrote:
No, this is the problem. A society of entitlement, made through loans to those who should never have gone to college.Macbeth wrote:
That's a problem since our education system should be the great equalizer in our society.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I think our education system should be designed in a way that people of lower socioeconomic standing have an opportunity for genuine advancement through higher education. As I have posted, that is not the case now.
It is entitlement when smart kids from families who can afford to pay for the best education get shafted by mediocre students with parents who just got by.
As I pointed out in point 2 under the section highlighting the problem with our system- there is a large and growing income gap between people you find on a college campus and people you don't. Go to any major campus and take a survey of parental income and then compare the percentages to the general public. You will find college students are overwhelmingly from the higher income groups. This is largely a result of the cost of going to school.Jay wrote:
It is 100% the case.
Because a few, a select few, students getting a free ride through Harvard or Yale balances out a provable systematic exclusion of lower income people.Ilocano wrote:
What are you talking about? Be smart, household income less than $100K, free ride at Harvard. There are kids going into my son's private high school with mediocre grades getting half their tuition paid for via financial aid.Macbeth wrote:
Society of entitlement old man spiel okay.Ilocano wrote:
No, this is the problem. A society of entitlement, made through loans to those who should never have gone to college.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I think our education system should be designed in a way that people of lower socioeconomic standing have an opportunity for genuine advancement through higher education. As I have posted, that is not the case now.
Umm... what? You don't understand that colleges offer different fields of study? You aren't likely to see deadbeats in a nursing program or enrolled in calculus or something, they're usually in women's studies, psychology or a low level english class. Community colleges still have pre-req's for courses.Trotskygrad wrote:
pfff, everything is relative, of course it doesn't cost $0, it costs much much less than others.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
LOL at community college being free. Why should students be separated at the community college level? What happens to people who think they know what they want and enroll into a 4 year school only to realize they have no idea? You're either not college age yet or ignorant to the fact a large chunk of college students change their majors after they are enrolled.
that's the entire point, haha, I've seen a lot of college students drop out of state schools simply BECAUSE they had a change of heart when it comes to majors, and re-enroll in community college. I'd think that they're still figuring things out and should be separated from those who are more serious about using community college to gain a technical education.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
people go to community college for more than a technical education. see jay's post for other reasons.Trotskygrad wrote:
pfff, everything is relative, of course it doesn't cost $0, it costs much much less than others.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
LOL at community college being free. Why should students be separated at the community college level? What happens to people who think they know what they want and enroll into a 4 year school only to realize they have no idea? You're either not college age yet or ignorant to the fact a large chunk of college students change their majors after they are enrolled.
that's the entire point, haha, I've seen a lot of college students drop out of state schools simply BECAUSE they had a change of heart when it comes to majors, and re-enroll in community college. I'd think that they're still figuring things out and should be separated from those who are more serious about using community college to gain a technical education.
college is a good life lesson: don't purchase something that you won't be able to afford.
i wish i could just delete posts where people say stupid stuff
And I've pointed out repeatedly that going to college is still fairly inexpensive. State schools are cheap.Macbeth wrote:
As I pointed out in point 2 under the section highlighting the problem with our system- there is a large and growing income gap between people you find on a college campus and people you don't. Go to any major campus and take a survey of parental income and then compare the percentages to the general public. You will find college students are overwhelmingly from the higher income groups. This is largely a result of the cost of going to school.Jay wrote:
It is 100% the case.
You might see more rich kids on college campuses but I'd chalk it up to stuff like the parents of rich kids better knowing how to game the admissions process. That, and poor people generally come from cultures that don't place an emphasis on education. The gap has almost nothing to do with the cost of school.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Life is exclusionary, not college. Not everyone is born with a BMW in the driveway and sent to private school. It doesn't mean you need to have stupid rich kid guilt about it.Macbeth wrote:
Because a few, a select few, students getting a free ride through Harvard or Yale balances out a provable systematic exclusion of lower income people.Ilocano wrote:
What are you talking about? Be smart, household income less than $100K, free ride at Harvard. There are kids going into my son's private high school with mediocre grades getting half their tuition paid for via financial aid.Macbeth wrote:
Society of entitlement old man spiel okay.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I think our education system should be designed in a way that people of lower socioeconomic standing have an opportunity for genuine advancement through higher education. As I have posted, that is not the case now.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
So, do it the Asian way. Do it for the next generation or the next, next generation. Entitlement is expecting equal advantage now.Macbeth wrote:
Because a few, a select few, students getting a free ride through Harvard or Yale balances out a provable systematic exclusion of lower income people.Ilocano wrote:
What are you talking about? Be smart, household income less than $100K, free ride at Harvard. There are kids going into my son's private high school with mediocre grades getting half their tuition paid for via financial aid.Macbeth wrote:
Society of entitlement old man spiel okay.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I think our education system should be designed in a way that people of lower socioeconomic standing have an opportunity for genuine advancement through higher education. As I have posted, that is not the case now.
The Asian way. Parents sacrifice to get oldest son a high school education. He goes to work overseas, working hard manual work, living frugally, and sending most of his income back home. Some other siblings also get to go to High School through the sacrifices of the first born. They also go overseas to find work and opportunity. They send money home as well. Enough money is made, that some of the youngest siblings get into college. That one also goes overseas, and reasonably succeeds. Clan works hard, years go by, all kids are able to attend high schools. Many more are able to attend colleges. Pay forwarding continues. Two or three generations later, the original parents who sacrificed see grand children who are doctors, lawyers, etc. That is the asian way.
But no, that's not what you want. You want entitlement. First generation, no sacrifices from previous generations. Give me that same opportunity now. So what if others took generations to get to where they are.
As study after study has pointed out, the cost of education is very restrictive to lower income people who otherwise would be able excel at college level courses. State schools are not cheap to the point where lower income people can go without issue. As you have mentioned countless times when knocking on nonengineering degrees: your average student runs up a ton of debt going to even state schools. If a middle or higher income person can find themselves in a tough financial state after a stint at a 4 year school then a lower income person cannot even afford to play.Jay wrote:
And I've pointed out repeatedly that going to college is still fairly inexpensive. State schools are cheap.Macbeth wrote:
As I pointed out in point 2 under the section highlighting the problem with our system- there is a large and growing income gap between people you find on a college campus and people you don't. Go to any major campus and take a survey of parental income and then compare the percentages to the general public. You will find college students are overwhelmingly from the higher income groups. This is largely a result of the cost of going to school.Jay wrote:
It is 100% the case.
You might see more rich kids on college campuses but I'd chalk it up to stuff like the parents of rich kids better knowing how to game the admissions process. That, and poor people generally come from cultures that don't place an emphasis on education. The gap has almost nothing to do with the cost of school.
As for your gaming of the admission system comment: thank you for highlighting the problem. Some extremely intelligent people who would do very well at college don't have parents who can game the system for them. That is a problem.
That's not the exclusively Asian, it's the immigrant way in general.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
very very true. Even with education affordable to EVERYONE in aus, you mostly see kids from mostly a white collar background. it's more to do with parenting and culture rather than cost.Jay wrote:
And I've pointed out repeatedly that going to college is still fairly inexpensive. State schools are cheap.Macbeth wrote:
As I pointed out in point 2 under the section highlighting the problem with our system- there is a large and growing income gap between people you find on a college campus and people you don't. Go to any major campus and take a survey of parental income and then compare the percentages to the general public. You will find college students are overwhelmingly from the higher income groups. This is largely a result of the cost of going to school.Jay wrote:
It is 100% the case.
You might see more rich kids on college campuses but I'd chalk it up to stuff like the parents of rich kids better knowing how to game the admissions process. That, and poor people generally come from cultures that don't place an emphasis on education. The gap has almost nothing to do with the cost of school.
True. But I can only relate what I know.Jay wrote:
That's not the exclusively Asian, it's the immigrant way in general.
I'm fairly to the economic right. As I said in other threads, inequality is fine with me as long as there is a system in place to provide mobility between the classes. I see education as that system.Jay wrote:
Life is exclusionary, not college. Not everyone is born with a BMW in the driveway and sent to private school. It doesn't mean you need to have stupid rich kid guilt about it.Macbeth wrote:
Because a few, a select few, students getting a free ride through Harvard or Yale balances out a provable systematic exclusion of lower income people.Ilocano wrote:
What are you talking about? Be smart, household income less than $100K, free ride at Harvard. There are kids going into my son's private high school with mediocre grades getting half their tuition paid for via financial aid.
Community college - $3k per year, 2 years, close to home, room and board covered by parents, $6k totalMacbeth wrote:
As study after study has pointed out, the cost of education is very restrictive to lower income people who otherwise would be able excel at college level courses. State schools are not cheap to the point where lower income people can go without issue. As you have mentioned countless times when knocking on nonengineering degrees: your average student runs up a ton of debt going to even state schools. If a middle or higher income person can find themselves in a tough financial state after a stint at a 4 year school then a lower income person cannot even afford to play.Jay wrote:
And I've pointed out repeatedly that going to college is still fairly inexpensive. State schools are cheap.Macbeth wrote:
As I pointed out in point 2 under the section highlighting the problem with our system- there is a large and growing income gap between people you find on a college campus and people you don't. Go to any major campus and take a survey of parental income and then compare the percentages to the general public. You will find college students are overwhelmingly from the higher income groups. This is largely a result of the cost of going to school.
You might see more rich kids on college campuses but I'd chalk it up to stuff like the parents of rich kids better knowing how to game the admissions process. That, and poor people generally come from cultures that don't place an emphasis on education. The gap has almost nothing to do with the cost of school.
As for your gaming of the admission system comment: thank you for highlighting the problem. Some extremely intelligent people who would do very well at college don't have parents who can game the system for them. That is a problem.
State school - $15k per year, 2 years, assuming room and board included, $30k total
$36k for a four year degree. Toss in another $4k for books. $40k total
PELL Grant covers $6k/yr, TAP covers $4k/yr = $10,000 * 4 = $40,000
Or get a scholarship, or join the military.
The people that bitch about the cost of school are the same people that demand higher subsidies for school and easier access to loans, the two main drivers in the cost of education in the first place
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
America is one of the most economically mobile country in the world.Macbeth wrote:
I'm fairly to the economic right. As I said in other threads, inequality is fine with me as long as there is a system in place to provide mobility between the classes. I see education as that system.Jay wrote:
Life is exclusionary, not college. Not everyone is born with a BMW in the driveway and sent to private school. It doesn't mean you need to have stupid rich kid guilt about it.Macbeth wrote:
Because a few, a select few, students getting a free ride through Harvard or Yale balances out a provable systematic exclusion of lower income people.
Well okay. Fine. I'll just tell the hypothetical black kid living in the bronx that he may be an extremely bright person but he can't go to school because his parents weren't Asian engineers. I'm also make sure to tell him he shouldn't feel entitled to receiving the same opportunity as someone who was born with great parents.Ilocano wrote:
So, do it the Asian way. Do it for the next generation or the next, next generation. Entitlement is expecting equal advantage now.Macbeth wrote:
Because a few, a select few, students getting a free ride through Harvard or Yale balances out a provable systematic exclusion of lower income people.Ilocano wrote:
What are you talking about? Be smart, household income less than $100K, free ride at Harvard. There are kids going into my son's private high school with mediocre grades getting half their tuition paid for via financial aid.
The Asian way. Parents sacrifice to get oldest son a high school education. He goes to work overseas, working hard manual work, living frugally, and sending most of his income back home. Some other siblings also get to go to High School through the sacrifices of the first born. They also go overseas to find work and opportunity. They send money home as well. Enough money is made, that some of the youngest siblings get into college. That one also goes overseas, and reasonably succeeds. Clan works hard, years go by, all kids are able to attend high schools. Many more are able to attend colleges. Pay forwarding continues. Two or three generations later, the original parents who sacrificed see grand children who are doctors, lawyers, etc. That is the asian way.
But no, that's not what you want. You want entitlement. First generation, no sacrifices from previous generations. Give me that same opportunity now. So what if others took generations to get to where they are.
It's actually one of the lowest in the developed (Western) world.Cybargs wrote:
America is one of the most economically mobile country in the world.Macbeth wrote:
I'm fairly to the economic right. As I said in other threads, inequality is fine with me as long as there is a system in place to provide mobility between the classes. I see education as that system.Jay wrote:
Life is exclusionary, not college. Not everyone is born with a BMW in the driveway and sent to private school. It doesn't mean you need to have stupid rich kid guilt about it.
It's up to him. Work his ass off for the next generation. Be the first role-model for the next generation. He makes the sacrifices so he can see the fruits of his labor, his highly successful grandchildren. If he isn't willing to make that sacrifice, well, screw him.Macbeth wrote:
Well okay. Fine. I'll just tell the hypothetical black kid living in the bronx that he may be an extremely bright person but he can't go to school because his parents weren't Asian engineers. I'm also make sure to tell him he shouldn't feel entitled to receiving the same opportunity as someone who was born with great parents.
By what standard? Comparing the bottom to the top? Whatever. It's not all that hard for someone born at the bottom to reach the middle. It just takes motivation and making the right friends. I'm not even talking about connected friends, but just people that aren't going to drag you down with them. It's almost better to be a loner if you're poorMacbeth wrote:
It's actually one of the lowest in the developed (Western) world.Cybargs wrote:
America is one of the most economically mobile country in the world.Macbeth wrote:
I'm fairly to the economic right. As I said in other threads, inequality is fine with me as long as there is a system in place to provide mobility between the classes. I see education as that system.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Aside from your whole premise relying on someone having great enough parenst to provide room and board for them while in community college and not needing to work live or anything you have to be a certain amount of poor to receive those programs. It's more complicated than "you are poor. so here take this life plan and go apply for these programs. you can do it too!''Jay wrote:
Community college - $3k per year, 2 years, close to home, room and board covered by parents, $6k totalMacbeth wrote:
As study after study has pointed out, the cost of education is very restrictive to lower income people who otherwise would be able excel at college level courses. State schools are not cheap to the point where lower income people can go without issue. As you have mentioned countless times when knocking on nonengineering degrees: your average student runs up a ton of debt going to even state schools. If a middle or higher income person can find themselves in a tough financial state after a stint at a 4 year school then a lower income person cannot even afford to play.Jay wrote:
And I've pointed out repeatedly that going to college is still fairly inexpensive. State schools are cheap.
You might see more rich kids on college campuses but I'd chalk it up to stuff like the parents of rich kids better knowing how to game the admissions process. That, and poor people generally come from cultures that don't place an emphasis on education. The gap has almost nothing to do with the cost of school.
As for your gaming of the admission system comment: thank you for highlighting the problem. Some extremely intelligent people who would do very well at college don't have parents who can game the system for them. That is a problem.
State school - $15k per year, 2 years, assuming room and board included, $30k total
$36k for a four year degree. Toss in another $4k for books. $40k total
PELL Grant covers $6k/yr, TAP covers $4k/yr = $10,000 * 4 = $40,000
Or get a scholarship, or join the military.
The people that bitch about the cost of school are the same people that demand higher subsidies for school and easier access to loans, the two main drivers in the cost of education in the first place