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eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|4377|foggy bottom
as far as zimmermans account goes, thats pretty much what happened.  he picked a fight with a 17 year old, got his beat and pulled the gun on him.  i would think someone who is an advocate of stand your ground would be just as upset with his actions as the next person, especially if his irresponsible actions place public scrutiny on that doctrine.
Tu Stultus Es
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5750|949

I'm wondering two things- does anyone think this guy could get a fair trial if charged?

Does anyone think he would actually be found guilty?

There was video (video!) of 4 policemen beating the shit out of Rodney King, and they were acquitted of criminal charges. I don't see a potential trial here going any other way.
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|4296|Sydney
To me, if it was a 50/50 bet I'd put bit better odds of him being guilty when taking into light the current facts at hand.

If it goes to trial, I'd put better odds on him being acquitted.

At the end of the day I think it is most probable he is deserving of manslaughter than being either innocent or guilty of murder.

Last edited by Jaekus (2012-03-29 08:48:21)

Macbeth
Banned
+2,443|4703

Macbeth wrote:

I have an essay on Pizzaro's conquest of the Inca due Monday. I have to drive down to my school and barricade myself in the library today and finish it or else it'll never be done. That said, I'll take my time to make one effort post about this subject. Long post but it's worth it. Trust me I wrote it!


Okay so the only two people who truly know what happened that day after Zimmerman got out of his car are Zimmerman and Martin. Martin is dead so we can never get his side of the story. Though we could get Zimmerman's side of the story, it's tainted because Zimmerman has the human trait of self preservation. So what Zimmerman says about what happened can at best be ''taken with a grain of salt'' and at worst completely disregarded. Since what happened is a mystery, let us deal with the four objective provable 100% did happen facts:

1. Zimmerman confronted Martin.
2. Martin was unarmed.
3. Zimmerman was armed.
4. Zimmerman killed Martin.

Now here comes in the "stand your ground law" and where things get confusing. Unlike Ohio's similar law, the burden of proof is shifted to the police in Florida. Meaning, the police have to prove you did not have to use force in Florida but in Ohio you have to prove you needed to use force. From Zimmerman's account, he was in right to use force. Now since the police have no proof of anything to discount his claim he was not charged. This decision was made by the states prosecution to not file charges because they had no proof to discount Zimmerman's claim.The lead homicide detective from the area, thought he should have been charged with at least manslaughter. The police were going on the four "knows" when they made that choice. The states law made the four knows less relevant than Zimmerman's testimony. Which demonstrates a problem with Florida law compared to the superior Ohio law. Full disclosure: I'm okay with stand your ground laws. From my understanding of them, Ohio seems to have the best.

Now I would side with Zimmerman if he was in fact attacked outright by Martin. But I cannot due to the fact that the confrontation was started by Zimmerman. His actions of following and confronting Martin nullify his cause for self defense. The Florida state Senator who wrote the law agrees with me, and beleives Zimmerman is not protected by the law due to his initiating the confrontation.

Finally, what role does race play in this? In America there is trend of thinking of young black people as criminals. It's racist but we just can't help it. Zimmerman especially couldn't help it. In the months leading up to the death of Martin, Zimmerman made 46 911 calls reporting black people in the his neighborhood. We know this for a fact. There are records and recordings and transcripts. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that race had something to do with this case since Zimmerman has a fear of blacks in his neighborhood.

So in summation:
1. Based off of the 100% knowable facts- Zimmerman killed an unarmed man he confronted.

2. Florida state law is protecting Zimmerman while the police and the person who wrote the law both think he should be charged. There is something wrong with the law.

3. This case was caused by race and Zimmerman has a thing against black people.
I'm really proud of myself with this one. The formatting, the citations. It's beautiful.
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|5686|Mountains of NC

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|4296|Sydney
You did spell the word "believes" incorrectly in the second link
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|4377|foggy bottom

SEREMAKER wrote:

Spike Lee
spike lee is a retard who makes retarded movies
Tu Stultus Es
13rin
Member
+977|5597

Jaekus wrote:

1. I haven't stated any stance. Assume makes an ass of u and... if you want clarification, see Macbeth's post.
2. Straw man argument
3. You'll reserve judgement? Your post above contradicts that statement.
4. The guy who wrote the law doesn't agree with you.
1. Sorry when you took that pot-shot, you tipped your hand.
2. Just addressing your 'want to believe' statement.  Logic dictates...  If there is a straw-man argument it is those going after that law using this situation as a vehicle to do so.
3. Which one?  The one's that said basically "if it's found that he committed a criminal act and wrongfully killed that kid he should die?"
4. You mean Senator Peaden?  How so?  Ever spoken to the man?  I thought I stated earlier that this really doesn't have anything to do with the stand your ground law.

Jae wrote:

So many questions about me. That hardly pertains to this discussion at hand, because this does not involve me, so it seems pointless answering them. Ever heard the saying "argue the point, never the person?"
Umm hmm.  Sure it does.  I'm just trying to understand when you find the use of deadly force acceptable during self defense, if at all.  But nice dodge, now can you dodge a wrench?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
13rin
Member
+977|5597

Macbeth wrote:

I'm really proud of myself with this one. The formatting, the citations. It's beautiful.
Yes Mac.. It was breathtaking. 

I agree as the SYG law shouldn't apply.  However, the self defense law might... Again, I'm waiting to see how this is reviewed.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
13rin
Member
+977|5597

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I'm wondering two things- does anyone think this guy could get a fair trial if charged?

Does anyone think he would actually be found guilty?

There was video (video!) of 4 policemen beating the shit out of Rodney King, and they were acquitted of criminal charges. I don't see a potential trial here going any other way.
Eventually as there are enough people that live under rocks in this country that are detached from the media or so self-absorbed with their own life, they don't know about it.

There's the 64K question.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|4819|College Park, MD
my thread was better, anyway the more I read about this case the less informed I get.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|4296|Sydney

13rin wrote:

I'm just trying to understand when you find the use of deadly force acceptable during self defense, if at all.  But nice dodge, now can you dodge a wrench?
How is it proven it was self defence, when he himself admitted to approaching Martin, at night, in what is known as a fairly high-crime neighbourhood?

For all we know Martin was the one acting in self defence. After all he was the one approached by a guy who had been following him. In a car. At night. In the rain. He was 17 and approached by a bigger guy who is older than him. Maybe he thought he was being followed and about to be attacked, so he freaked.

Last edited by Jaekus (2012-03-29 09:57:24)

-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|5776|BC, Canada

Jaekus wrote:

13rin wrote:

I'm just trying to understand when you find the use of deadly force acceptable during self defense, if at all.  But nice dodge, now can you dodge a wrench?
How is it proven it was self defence, when he himself admitted to approaching Martin, at night, in what is known as a fairly high-crime neighbourhood?

For all we know Martin was the one acting in self defence. After all he was the one approached by a guy who had been following him. In a car. At night. In the rain. He was 17 and approached by a bigger guy who is older than him. Maybe he thought he was being followed and about to be attacked, so he freaked.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4476|London, England

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

my thread was better, anyway the more I read about this case the less informed I get.
I haven't read more than maybe a paragraph about the thing. I find it more amusing that you can tell the people that share a news source based on their displayed opinion and level of outrage. Muppets.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|4819|College Park, MD
Pretty much. First I thought it was a guy who simply killed a kid. Then I start hearing the kid jumped him, then I start hearing that he was referring to the kid by racial slurs, then this then that... all very messy.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Macbeth
Banned
+2,443|4703

Jay wrote:

Hurricane2k9 wrote:

my thread was better, anyway the more I read about this case the less informed I get.
I haven't read more than maybe a paragraph about the thing. I find it more amusing that you can tell the people that share a news source based on their displayed opinion and level of outrage. Muppets.
What does reason.com think Mr. Badass libertarian?
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|4591|Ventura, California

Jaekus wrote:

13rin wrote:

I'm just trying to understand when you find the use of deadly force acceptable during self defense, if at all.  But nice dodge, now can you dodge a wrench?
How is it proven it was self defence, when he himself admitted to approaching Martin, at night, in what is known as a fairly high-crime neighbourhood?

For all we know Martin was the one acting in self defence. After all he was the one approached by a guy who had been following him. In a car. At night. In the rain. He was 17 and approached by a bigger guy who is older than him. Maybe he thought he was being followed and about to be attacked, so he freaked.
Martin was 7 inches taller but a little lighter. He could easily kick Z's ass. Martin told his girlfriend on the phone that he was being followed and she told him to run. He should have listened to his girlfriend. He was the one who would be in the wrong under the SYG law of self defense because he was not attacked. So if he struck Z for following him, he'd be in the wrong. As clarified in previous posts, you have to retreat until you can no longer do so to defend yourself. You don't follow the guy who quit following you to beat his ass.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,443|4703

I am so bored of your trolling
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|4819|College Park, MD
i was shocked to learn that the CEO of Men's Wearhouse is actually a young Hispanic male
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|5655|Long Island, New York
Has it been mentioned that the picture of "Martin" with his pants sagging and no shirt on is not Martin at all? Well done once again, Michelle Malkin.

Here's what I posted on another forum:

I just think it's funny it's being used politically by the same groups of people you'd expect it would. The right is mostly defending Zimmerman and his actions as self defense, the left is mostly defending Martin as an innocent victim. Being brutally honest, I'm not even sure if I care. He got "murdered in cold blood". That sucks. It happens all the time and this story is the one that gets attention... and why? Race, regardless of whether people want to admit it. I'm not buying into it. It's really in the back of my mind when it comes to the world and current events.

Although I will say the one thing I don't buy is that Martin overpowered Zimmerman because of his height. Anyone seen a picture of him? He was lanky as hell and Zimmerman looks like a pretty big dude. If he got overpowered by a 17 year old kid who probably weighed 160 soaking wet, well...
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|4591|Ventura, California
A football player vs a short heavy guy? A punch to the face can catch anybody by surprise, not to mention disorientate so the kid could get the upper hand.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,443|4703

I have such a crush on michelle Malkin
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,927|5750|949

You simply can't say one dude could/couldn't overpower another based on height and weight. You guys are being dumb.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|5117|...
shifty never disappoints
inane little opines
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|4591|Ventura, California
yeah I know but I'm just saying that he had a chance, it's not impossible.

Everybody says "huur duur that little kid couldn't even give that guy a bruise" I'm disagreeing
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.

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