Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5578

The Supreme Court opened its historic review of the national health-care overhaul Monday with an indication that it will be able to decide the constitutional question of whether Congress exceeded its powers despite arguments that the challenge was brought too soon.

The court began the first of three days of oral arguments on the 2010 law by examining a statute that keeps courts from hearing tax challenges before they go into effect. But the justices’ questions indicated skepticism that the penalties prescribed for those who do not buy health insurance by 2014 amount to taxes under the 1867 law forbidding tax challenges.

The court on Tuesday will hear arguments about the so-called “individual mandate” that is at the heart of the health-care law.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ … story.html


For Aussies and Euros who are unfamiliar with the law and how things work- The health care plan being discused was the one democrats passed in '10. The bill manages to bring down healthcare insurance cost by forcing everyone to have insurance. By having the healthy people who would go without insurance buy it the insurance companies can afford the to take a hit on covering people who have preexisting conditions (normally they would be denied coverage). It allows adds some other things mostly meant to make things better for consumers. For instance, you can stay on your parents health insurance until 27 now as long as you are student. It also has a slight tax on people who make over a million dollars. Now our supreme court is going to hear the case. Now the court is going to determine whether the health insurance mandate violates some part of the constitution. If it does, according to them, then the law will be struck down. If they don't think it violates it, the law stays. The Supreme court is the final determiner in this case. Unless they go through the long process of amending the constitution (which will not happen for anything as of right now) the law will stand or fall.

So, do you think it will stand? Do you think it's a good thing or bad thing? Will doctors face wage suppression? Death panels?!
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6145|what

Having your insurance policy through where you work is stupid on so many levels.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6624|949

Why do you think so?

By the way I more or less agree with you, just interested in hearing an outsiders take
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6145|what

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Why do you think so?

By the way I more or less agree with you, just interested in hearing an outsiders take
That your choice of provider is limited, limits the competition in a market which means premiums are higher, service poorer.

Means that there are less people in similar or the same plans. The whole country doesn't work and the statistics I've seen shows many are uninsured in the US.

You can't exactly find the right plan for you, it's more here's what your employer provides. Good luck.

Changing provider is further more difficult for obvious reasons. But then if you change provider and have a pre-existing condition you can be denied the coverage you need.

With a mutual pay system I don't care if my taxes pay for another's medical bills. But when the government does have this system it can use the pool of money to bring subsidies all through the health care system in costs of care and medicine and also regulate against hog costs.

That's my take anyway. There's universal coverage here for everything except some elective surgery.

I could be wrong, I'm not under the US system. Maybe you aren't as locked in with your provider and as limited as I am led to believe.

Ultimately,
I think healthcare is a right and shouldn't be a privilege.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England
So on the one hand you lament the lack of competition, and your solution is to remove all competition. Makes sense.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6145|what

Jay wrote:

So on the one hand you lament the lack of competition, and your solution is to remove all competition. Makes sense.
Competition or government run makes sense. The current system promotes neither.

Hate to imagine the libertarian views on healthcare. If you're born poor too bad?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
13rin
Member
+977|6471
The quality of my health care would decrease if this is upheld.  Fuck this "right to healthcare" bullshit.  I pay the fuck in.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

AussieReaper wrote:

Jay wrote:

So on the one hand you lament the lack of competition, and your solution is to remove all competition. Makes sense.
Competition or government run makes sense. The current system promotes neither.

Hate to imagine the libertarian views on healthcare. If you're born poor too bad?
So you choose the two extremes. Competition, or zero competition. What is your definition of 'just enough' competition? Completely arbitrary. You know what? You don't have to get insurance through your employer. Everyone has the ability to self insure. Hell, everyone has the ability to not carry any insurance at all (for a little while longer at least)!

You're right, the current system promotes neither, because the current system is fucking designed by politicians, just like your mythical NHS would be. Employers have historically provided insurance in this country as a perk of employment, and government encouraged the practice by making health insurance benefits count as tax-exempt income. This is what the unions and their government lackeys wanted.

Libertarian views on healthcare: you get what you pay for. Health insurance isn't prohibitively expensive, it just requires a commitment on the part of the insured to maintain coverage. I'm sorry, but just because a person has a pulse does not mean they should be allowed be a net drain on the system. Why should someone who pays nothing in taxes receive expensive medical treatment for free? Yeah, I'm a heartless asshole or whatever, but you're the reason Greece happens.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6530|Long Island, New York

13rin wrote:

The quality of my health care would decrease if this is upheld.
I honestly have never heard anything to support this statement.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

Poseidon wrote:

13rin wrote:

The quality of my health care would decrease if this is upheld.
I honestly have never heard anything to support this statement.
Doctors are already overworked. Now you dump millions more patients into the system while maintaining the same number of doctors. You don't think care levels will decrease? Ok. Good luck making an appointment for anything short of a limb falling off.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6624|949

13rin wrote:

Fuck this "right to healthcare" bullshit.  I pay the fuck in.
I pay in too. You and I already pay more because people can't pay for healthcare. It's built in to the total cost. I have no problem paying a little bit more to make sure someone who can't otherwise afford it gets medical care. In fact I think it is my responsibility to give back a little. I think the for profit motive of healthcare at large is detrimental to humanity.
13rin
Member
+977|6471

Poseidon wrote:

I honestly have never heard anything to support this statement.
I would be forced into a different plan.  Moreover, universal healthcare leads to rationing.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

13rin wrote:

Fuck this "right to healthcare" bullshit.  I pay the fuck in.
I pay in too. You and I already pay more because people can't pay for healthcare. It's built in to the total cost. I have no problem paying a little bit more to make sure someone who can't otherwise afford it gets medical care. In fact I think it is my responsibility to give back a little. I think the for profit motive of healthcare at large is detrimental to humanity.
I don't mind paying a bit extra so that someone can have basic health coverage, but it would bother me immensely if I received the same health coverage as someone on welfare. No thanks.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
13rin
Member
+977|6471

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I pay in too. You and I already pay more because people can't pay for healthcare. It's built in to the total cost. I have no problem paying a little bit more to make sure someone who can't otherwise afford it gets medical care. In fact I think it is my responsibility to give back a little. I think the for profit motive of healthcare at large is detrimental to humanity.
I know I/we already pay in.  Your argument that we need universal healthcare doesn't work, as people all ready go to the ER regardless.  I'm glad you feel a responsibility to give back a little... I all ready do.  Shit, you want to give back?  I'll pm you my paypal account ##....  Not to be any more of a heartless prick, but maybe you should go into the medical field and give your services away for free.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6624|949

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

13rin wrote:

Fuck this "right to healthcare" bullshit.  I pay the fuck in.
I pay in too. You and I already pay more because people can't pay for healthcare. It's built in to the total cost. I have no problem paying a little bit more to make sure someone who can't otherwise afford it gets medical care. In fact I think it is my responsibility to give back a little. I think the for profit motive of healthcare at large is detrimental to humanity.
I don't mind paying a bit extra so that someone can have basic health coverage, but it would bother me immensely if I received the same health coverage as someone on welfare. No thanks.
Does the law as it states now eliminate private healthcare? I wasn't aware it did. As far as I know it doesn't.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6624|949

13rin wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I pay in too. You and I already pay more because people can't pay for healthcare. It's built in to the total cost. I have no problem paying a little bit more to make sure someone who can't otherwise afford it gets medical care. In fact I think it is my responsibility to give back a little. I think the for profit motive of healthcare at large is detrimental to humanity.
I know I/we already pay in.  Your argument that we need universal healthcare doesn't work, as people all ready go to the ER regardless.  I'm glad you feel a responsibility to give back a little... I all ready do.  Shit, you want to give back?  I'll pm you my paypal account ##....  Not to be any more of a heartless prick, but maybe you should go into the medical field and give your services away for free.
If you had no other way to pay for healthcare, I'd have no problem chipping in. As far as I'm concerned thats part of the social contract. If you want me to underwrite your private coke and hooker parties, I have a problem.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:


I pay in too. You and I already pay more because people can't pay for healthcare. It's built in to the total cost. I have no problem paying a little bit more to make sure someone who can't otherwise afford it gets medical care. In fact I think it is my responsibility to give back a little. I think the for profit motive of healthcare at large is detrimental to humanity.
I don't mind paying a bit extra so that someone can have basic health coverage, but it would bother me immensely if I received the same health coverage as someone on welfare. No thanks.
Does the law as it states now eliminate private healthcare? I wasn't aware it did. As far as I know it doesn't.
Obamacare might as well be a single payer system. All health coverage is dictated from Washington, all prices are dictated from Washington, who is covered is dictated from Washington etc.

The only reason the health insurance companies still exist is 1) to provide political cover for this 'non-socialist health system', 2) because everyone bitched up a storm about government nationalization and 3) it gives the government a buffer between enraged health care recipients and the health care system. Insurance companies get to take the blame for denying coverage etc (no more talk of death panels when its the big bad insurance company being the asshole) and in return they get to keep their access to cash for investments in short term securities. Win/win for both parties.

So no, it doesn't physically eliminate your private healthcare, it just leaves the illusion of choice in place so people don't complain about loss of freedom. Tin foil hat blah blah blah.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6708
Jay you don't remove competition when you have the government in health. Look at Australia's medicare system, it has good enough coverage for more emergency needs (surgeries and what not) but costs for optional shit you gotta pay yourself or receive government assistance based on income. Private insurance companies make a lot of money in Aussie and is very profitable. Shit 50% of Australians buy an additional set of private insurance, and doctors can choose to work for the gov, or go private. Under medicare, patients get covered 75% if its a private doctor or hospital, but if its public its 100% covered.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6145|what

13rin wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

I honestly have never heard anything to support this statement.
I would be forced into a different plan.  Moreover, universal healthcare leads to rationing.
Lol'd

Waitlsts increase for elective surgeries only. In Aus if you don't like the idea of that you can use your private insurance option.

What is exactly rationed?

Last edited by AussieReaper (2012-03-27 00:21:12)

https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6651|BC, Canada

AussieReaper wrote:

13rin wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

I honestly have never heard anything to support this statement.
I would be forced into a different plan.  Moreover, universal healthcare leads to rationing.
Lol'd

Waitlsts increase for elective surgeries only. In Aus if you don't like the idea of that you can use your private insurance option.

What is exactly rationed?
Inorite! Any time I've needed a surgery or anything the only times I've waited was when I wanted to.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6708
yeah like you never have to wait for surgery in a busy hospital right.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6145|what

Cybargs wrote:

yeah like you never have to wait for surgery in a busy hospital right.
Beats going bankrupt cause the medical bills were too high to treat you cause your insurance didn't cover your ailment.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6651|BC, Canada

Cybargs wrote:

yeah like you never have to wait for surgery in a busy hospital right.
I haven't yet.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6708

-Whiteroom- wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

yeah like you never have to wait for surgery in a busy hospital right.
I haven't yet.
me neither, least i don't go bankrupt if I get seriously sick.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6651|BC, Canada
Neither do I, guy.

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