Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5836

A huge A1 story in The New York Times about safety problems at Chinese electronics factories is sure to turn up the heat on Apple as Americans become more and more aware of the true price of their beloved gadgets. The deep investigation into Apple's supplier practices opens with the horrifying images of an explosion that killed four people at a Foxconn factory making iPads in Chengdu last May:

    Two people were killed immediately, and over a dozen others hurt. As the injured were rushed into ambulances, one in particular stood out. His features had been smeared by the blast, scrubbed by heat and violence until a mat of red and black had replaced his mouth and nose.

Reporters Charles Duhigg and David Barboza go on to detail the lengthy charges of worker abuse and safety violations that seem to plague many of the companies that Apple relies on overseas, while also tying it to the human story of Lai Xiaodong, the young man who lost his life in that blast. Oddly, it is Apple's own internal reports that reveal most of these problems to Western observers, but attempts to correct the issues and improve the fortunes of laborers have a tendency to clash with the company's own insistence on low costs and high volume. Their own "code of conduct" is routinely violated by companies that are simultaneously being squeezed by Apple's other codes:

    “The only way you make money working for Apple is figuring out how to do things more efficiently or cheaper,” said an executive at one company that helped bring the iPad to market. “And then they’ll come back the next year, and force a 10 percent price cut.”

According to the story, more than half of Apple's suppliers have violated the codes every year since 2007, but few, if any, have lost their contracts due to safety. As one former Apple executive put it, “If half of iPhones were malfunctioning, do you think Apple would let it go on for four years?”
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business … pad/47886/

Remember that whole Occupy Wall Street thing? Remember how many people were at the protest with ipods and macbooks? Have you been in a humanities class on any major university and seen how many macbooks are in the class? The humanities people are the same group that would go to a OWS protest and bitch about the rich screwing with their lives and rah rah rah. So why don't these people protest Apple and try to get better conditions for the people who make apple stuff? I know in the west everything we own is covered in blood but Apple products go above and beyond your typical western luxury.

Sure it would make apple products a bit more expensive if they made manufacturers have safe environments for theirs workers. But it's not like current customers can't afford to pay a little more. Apple products are obscenely overpriced as it is. When you buy Apple you pay a large mark up from the manufacturing cost. The products are worth about a third of their shelf price. Apple products are pretty much a middle/upper middle class thing. There's no poor people using macbooks. So why can't this group pay a little more for their toys if it means easing general human suffering?

So is your typical apple consumers ignorant, hypocritical, or both?
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6941|Tampa Bay Florida
The Xbox360 workers were also threatening to commit mass suicide a little while ago.  Because of work conditions.

I hate Apple but I see this more as a tech industry/China problem, than as an Apple fans being dicks problem.  Which they are, either way.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5836

Xbox, Ipads, video cards...grown up toys? Why can't consumers pay a little more for their toys in order to make sure that the people who make their toys don't have to resort to suicide threats?

I can understand something like food, or energy. But ipads and xboxes? Come on if workers in the U.S. faced similar conditions there would be a shit storm.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6941|Tampa Bay Florida
Well I guess this is what happens when you let communists manufacture shit for you... lol

I mean, I've owned an Xbox for years but wasn't even aware they were made in China until that story came out. 

Here it is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … e-pay.html

That's "free trade" for you.  I guess it used to be called human trafficking, or maybe even slavery.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5609|London, England
Would the people working in these factories be better off without these factory jobs? No. They take them because they are a vast improvement over scratch subsistence farming or whatever it is they did in their previous life. If I told them I felt sorry for them over their working conditions they would undoubtedly look at me like I had two heads. It's a matter of perspective.

At its heart, this article serves a dual purpose: 1) it tugs at the heart strings of Americans and plays on liberal guilt and 2) it gives cover for people who advocate tariffs in their attempt to drive manufacturing back to our shores from China.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6941|Tampa Bay Florida

South China Morning Post wrote:

Technology giant Foxconn has been described as a labour camp that severely violates China's labour laws and abuses workers physically and mentally, in a research report jointly produced by 20 universities in Hong Kong, Taiwan and the mainland.

The researchers reported that employees were forced to work 80 to 100 hours of overtime per month. Under China's labour law, the legal limit on overtime is 36 hours a month.
Tens of thousands of teenage vocational school students, many without the protection of labour contracts or statutory industrial insurance, work under the same conditions in Foxconn's factories.

President of Foxconn wrote:

"Hon Hai has a workforce of over one million worldwide and as human beings are also animals, to manage one million animals gives me a headache,"
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6656|North Carolina

Jay wrote:

Would the people working in these factories be better off without these factory jobs? No. They take them because they are a vast improvement over scratch subsistence farming or whatever it is they did in their previous life. If I told them I felt sorry for them over their working conditions they would undoubtedly look at me like I had two heads. It's a matter of perspective.

At its heart, this article serves a dual purpose: 1) it tugs at the heart strings of Americans and plays on liberal guilt and 2) it gives cover for people who advocate tariffs in their attempt to drive manufacturing back to our shores from China.
Improvements in pay don't necessarily equal improvements in working conditions.

This was best demonstrated by America's own movement from being an agrarian society to an industrial one.  Workers in factories in the North typically were paid better than the farmhands of the South (if they weren't already slaves to begin with), but occupational hazards were typically far worse for factory workers.

As bad as slavery was, slaves were too valuable to just kill in most cases.  Factory workers, on the other hand, were easily replaceable via immigration.  So, if a factory worker was killed due to a machine accident (or simply became too sick from pollution/disease), it was less of a problem to a factory owner than it would be for a plantation owner if a slave died or escaped.

A similar trend is true of China.  Agrarian workers in China make even less money than their factory counterparts, but they also tend to face fewer hazards in their day to day lives.  You have less chance of dying in a field than you do in many factories.

This is also why labor revolts still occasionally occur in industrial sectors in China.  You don't hear about them much, because China is very good at keeping things quiet, but things still slip through from time to time that give us an indication of what's going on.

A worker cares less about better pay if he's unable to live long enough to use that money.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6941|Tampa Bay Florida
Revolts also happen regularly in agrarian China. 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/ … rmed-china
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6656|North Carolina
This is true.  China is slowly evolving to the point where we were at about 100 years ago.

It's very likely that labor reforms will eventually take place throughout China to address these things.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5609|London, England
That's the natural course imho. Going zomg do it today or ban chinese imports like the times article wants is both unrealistic and damaging to all involved, even to the american union manufacturer they ultimately want to prevail. He wants cheap goods too.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6918

But in the case of Apple, it's not about cheap goods.  It's about stock growth.  And how is that achieved?  Maintaining extreme margins and profits.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6404|what

Macbeth wrote:

Remember that whole Occupy Wall Street thing? Remember how many people were at the protest with ipods and macbooks? Have you been in a humanities class on any major university and seen how many macbooks are in the class? The humanities people are the same group that would go to a OWS protest and bitch about the rich screwing with their lives and rah rah rah. So why don't these people protest Apple and try to get better conditions for the people who make apple stuff? I know in the west everything we own is covered in blood but Apple products go above and beyond your typical western luxury.
Are you using this as a way to attack the protesters? They weren't attacking technology or products, manufacturing standards or even American working conditions. Why would you expect them to fight for Chinese workers rights?

You're just using the fact they had phones to label them, what, hypocrites?

I'm sure if you took any subset of Americans you'd find apple products. Unless you sample from the Amish community. Why hold the OWS protesters to another standard?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|6990|Toronto | Canada

i rarely see them in the hard sciences
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5609|London, England

Winston_Churchill wrote:

i rarely see them in the hard sciences
Nor OWS protesors.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6941|Tampa Bay Florida

Jay wrote:

That's the natural course imho. Going zomg do it today or ban chinese imports like the times article wants is both unrealistic and damaging to all involved, even to the american union manufacturer they ultimately want to prevail. He wants cheap goods too.
I don't think international trade is the issue here, it's the fact that they are breaking the law.  And the Chinamen *gasp* are not very interested in enforcing it.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6404|what

Don't think Macbeth is in any position to know what's seen in any educational setting other than tv and movies.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Winston_Churchill
Bazinga!
+521|6990|Toronto | Canada

i guess hard science people are the sane ones
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6883|949

AussieReaper wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Remember that whole Occupy Wall Street thing? Remember how many people were at the protest with ipods and macbooks? Have you been in a humanities class on any major university and seen how many macbooks are in the class? The humanities people are the same group that would go to a OWS protest and bitch about the rich screwing with their lives and rah rah rah. So why don't these people protest Apple and try to get better conditions for the people who make apple stuff? I know in the west everything we own is covered in blood but Apple products go above and beyond your typical western luxury.
Are you using this as a way to attack the protesters? They weren't attacking technology or products, manufacturing standards or even American working conditions. Why would you expect them to fight for Chinese workers rights?

You're just using the fact they had phones to label them, what, hypocrites?

I'm sure if you took any subset of Americans you'd find apple products. Unless you sample from the Amish community. Why hold the OWS protesters to another standard?
Because they are the ones currently bitching the loudest and most frequently about human rights and class struggle?
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6883|949

Ilocano wrote:

But in the case of Apple, it's not about cheap goods.  It's about stock growth.  And how is that achieved?  Maintaining extreme margins and profits.
This. Apple is one of the most ruthless in that regard. Akin to a walmart in terms of using their market share/size to squeeze their suppliers as much as possible.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6404|what

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

But in the case of Apple, it's not about cheap goods.  It's about stock growth.  And how is that achieved?  Maintaining extreme margins and profits.
This. Apple is one of the most ruthless in that regard. Akin to a walmart in terms of using their market share/size to squeeze their suppliers as much as possible.
Human rights? What human rights were they arguing Wall St bailouts was denying them?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6941|Tampa Bay Florida

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

But in the case of Apple, it's not about cheap goods.  It's about stock growth.  And how is that achieved?  Maintaining extreme margins and profits.
This. Apple is one of the most ruthless in that regard. Akin to a walmart in terms of using their market share/size to squeeze their suppliers as much as possible.
So it's race to the bottom with Apple as well?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5609|London, England

Spearhead wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

But in the case of Apple, it's not about cheap goods.  It's about stock growth.  And how is that achieved?  Maintaining extreme margins and profits.
This. Apple is one of the most ruthless in that regard. Akin to a walmart in terms of using their market share/size to squeeze their suppliers as much as possible.
So it's race to the bottom with Apple as well?
They keep their QC, they just keep swapping their sourcing to newer startups that have less overhead.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6883|949

AussieReaper wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Ilocano wrote:

But in the case of Apple, it's not about cheap goods.  It's about stock growth.  And how is that achieved?  Maintaining extreme margins and profits.
This. Apple is one of the most ruthless in that regard. Akin to a walmart in terms of using their market share/size to squeeze their suppliers as much as possible.
Human rights? What human rights were they arguing Wall St bailouts was denying them?
OWS protests weren't only about wall street bailouts. I guess your saying Macbeth shouldn't be singling out OWS protestors in his op because they weren't explicitly protesting against factory conditions in china? Ok, fair point I guess?
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6967
old news for china. like this is the worst thing that happens there.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7022|PNW

Macbeth wrote:

Xbox, Ipads, video cards...grown up toys? Why can't consumers pay a little more for their toys in order to make sure that the people who make their toys don't have to resort to suicide threats?

I can understand something like food, or energy. But ipads and xboxes? Come on if workers in the U.S. faced similar conditions there would be a shit storm.
Have fun paying $1500 for a video card to grossly pad executive pay while minimally increasing the quality of working conditions for the factories.

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