Actually britain took a step in the wrong direction a couple of years ago and changed cannabis to a class B drug, from class C.
Decriminalize some drugs, keep others the way they are...the class system of ranking drugs is a joke, and whether or not something has "medical use" is largely determined by government agencies that aren't necessarily loaded with MD's to make such decisions.Turquoise wrote:
Basically, all drugs in Portugal are decriminalized. The U.K. decriminalized certain substances, but they still have a War on Drugs of their own.Spearhead wrote:
You can decriminalize something without making it legal.
Is that not Britains policy?
Portugal is closer to the ideal, and as a result, drug-related crime is very low. People don't tend to kill each other as much over drugs when possession of them isn't penalized heavily.
I can only imagine the influx of cash from making pot possession a ticketable, but not jail-worthy (unless you've got illegal warehouse-sized grow ops going) offense...go from spending tens of thousands per year to have someone locked up, versus actually making several hundred dollars off of their "offense". Even though plenty of potheads would love to see it completely legalized, I'm sure they'd happily accept such a change if it meant they didn't have to fear actual jailtime.
Given that alcohol and cigarettes are legal, it's pretty hard to mount a convincing argument against weed. Not enough "science" to back legalization or decriminalization? Look at how much research exists on the damage caused by alcohol and tobacco, and their continued legality, and tell me that this is anything other than bending over backwards to accomodate select special interest groups and government agencies... (not directed towards Turq, I'm just throwing it out there...)
Last edited by -CARNIFEX-[LOC] (2012-01-19 10:20:08)
Decriminalization of weed is a step in the right direction, but legalization should be the ultimate result in the long term.-CARNIFEX-[LOC] wrote:
Decriminalize some drugs, keep others the way they are...the class system of ranking drugs is a joke, and whether or not something has "medical use" is largely determined by government agencies that aren't necessarily loaded with MD's to make such decisions.Turquoise wrote:
Basically, all drugs in Portugal are decriminalized. The U.K. decriminalized certain substances, but they still have a War on Drugs of their own.Spearhead wrote:
You can decriminalize something without making it legal.
Is that not Britains policy?
Portugal is closer to the ideal, and as a result, drug-related crime is very low. People don't tend to kill each other as much over drugs when possession of them isn't penalized heavily.
I can only imagine the influx of cash from making pot possession a ticketable, but not jail-worthy (unless you've got illegal warehouse-sized grow ops going) offense...go from spending tens of thousands per year to have someone locked up, versus actually making several hundred dollars off of their "offense". Even though plenty of potheads would love to see it completely legalized, I'm sure they'd happily accept such a change if it meant they didn't have to fear actual jailtime.
Given that alcohol and cigarettes are legal, it's pretty hard to mount a convincing argument against weed. Not enough "science" to back legalization or decriminalization? Look at how much research exists on the damage caused by alcohol and tobacco, and their continued legality, and tell me that this is anything other than bending over backwards to accomodate select special interest groups and government agencies... (not directed towards Turq, I'm just throwing it out there...)
As you said, it's plainly apparent that alcohol and tobacco cause plenty of damage themselves, so having a product that causes less damage while still being illegal is just silly.
The law should be consistent in how it deals with substances. A less dangerous substance than ones already legally available should no longer be prohibited.
Granted, I can understand why people would rather decriminalize heroin than legalize it.
Last edited by Turquoise (2012-01-19 11:05:30)
Exactly. A significant amount (not sure the percentage but it'd be interesting to see it) of "legal" drugs, produced in the billions, just end up on the black market.-CARNIFEX-[LOC] wrote:
Decriminalize some drugs, keep others the way they are...the class system of ranking drugs is a joke, and whether or not something has "medical use" is largely determined by government agencies that aren't necessarily loaded with MD's to make such decisions.
I can only imagine the influx of cash from making pot possession a ticketable, but not jail-worthy (unless you've got illegal warehouse-sized grow ops going) offense...go from spending tens of thousands per year to have someone locked up, versus actually making several hundred dollars off of their "offense". Even though plenty of potheads would love to see it completely legalized, I'm sure they'd happily accept such a change if it meant they didn't have to fear actual jailtime.
Given that alcohol and cigarettes are legal, it's pretty hard to mount a convincing argument against weed. Not enough "science" to back legalization or decriminalization? Look at how much research exists on the damage caused by alcohol and tobacco, and their continued legality, and tell me that this is anything other than bending over backwards to accomodate select special interest groups and government agencies... (not directed towards Turq, I'm just throwing it out there...)
http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/med … 123881.eceStrung-out addicts may be the face of Florida's prescription drug abuse crisis, but doctors are key figures in a scourge that kills seven Floridians a day. While only a tiny number of doctors cause problems, one doctor seeing 80 patients -- not uncommon in pain mills -- can put 20,000 pills a day in the hands of drug abusers and traffickers.
I am fucking tired of hearing the "oh stupid pothead" argument when this kind of activity is allowed to happen. I'd much rather ban that chemically altered poison and give people a joint instead. And I'm not a pothead.
Last edited by Spearhead (2012-01-19 11:23:12)
I remember watching a documentary about Florida pill mills. They prescribe pills at something like 5x the national rate. Why is that?
I also remember hearing a stat that had some absurd number of people dying per day from prescription overdoses
I also remember hearing a stat that had some absurd number of people dying per day from prescription overdoses
Corruption and inefficiency at our notoriously pathetic state capitol. Our high percentage of old people also might have something to with it (in terms of strengthening the power of insurance companies). Our Governor was the CEO of the largest for-profit healthcare company in the US, plead the 5th and resigned after they caught stealing from Medicare.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I remember watching a documentary about Florida pill mills. They prescribe pills at something like 5x the national rate. Why is that?
I also remember hearing a stat that had some absurd number of people dying per day from prescription overdoses
That, combined with the second worst housing market in the US, insanely high insurance rates (something like 1/4th of Floridians are uninsured drivers), and a shortage of even average-paying job opportunity for young people. Of course these would not be as serious, were Florida not the 4th largest state by population in the US...
TBT wrote:
Even a prison sentence is no guarantee a doctor will lose his license. Some who committed criminal acts are still allowed to practice.
Last edited by Spearhead (2012-01-19 11:47:52)
This. Apart from a small rise in cannabis usage among young males, usage and uptake rates for every drug declined across the board. Fewer junkies, fewer meth-heads... Real world evidence that loose policy = lower usage. What I want to know is, why won't the naysayers accept this?Turquoise wrote:
Portugal is closer to the ideal, and as a result, drug-related crime is very low. People don't tend to kill each other as much over drugs when possession of them isn't penalized heavily.
"Drugs are bad...Mkay"Pubic wrote:
This. Apart from a small rise in cannabis usage among young males, usage and uptake rates for every drug declined across the board. Fewer junkies, fewer meth-heads... Real world evidence that loose policy = lower usage. What I want to know is, why won't the naysayers accept this?Turquoise wrote:
Portugal is closer to the ideal, and as a result, drug-related crime is very low. People don't tend to kill each other as much over drugs when possession of them isn't penalized heavily.
It's an emotional issue as much as a logical one to the prohibitionists.
I support legalizing marijuana because I want to see the Cartels and gangs undercut...
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?Turquoise wrote:
The simplest and most pertinent argument is that we waste billions every year on the War on Drugs with no real benefit.
How is that not enough of a good argument?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
Fuck Israel
See Portugal's policy and results.Dilbert_X wrote:
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?Turquoise wrote:
The simplest and most pertinent argument is that we waste billions every year on the War on Drugs with no real benefit.
How is that not enough of a good argument?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
Their economy might be crap right now, but they at least have low drug crime and addiction.
Besides, if you value "productivity" over rights, move to Singapore. You'd love it there.
Last edited by Turquoise (2012-01-20 09:15:07)
Well the fact that we throw billions of dollars at it (the war on drugs) and the statistics show it hasn't directly correlated to either reducing supply/availability and use is enough for me to say its wasted. I wonder what kind of impact there would be if half the money dumped into fighting the war on drugs was funneled to drug education and rehabilitation. Not to say there isn't money dumped into those to things, but maybe there needs to be an adjustmentDilbert_X wrote:
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?Turquoise wrote:
The simplest and most pertinent argument is that we waste billions every year on the War on Drugs with no real benefit.
How is that not enough of a good argument?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
If you value freedom so much move to Somalia - no drug laws there.Turquoise wrote:
See Portugal's policy and results.Dilbert_X wrote:
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?Turquoise wrote:
The simplest and most pertinent argument is that we waste billions every year on the War on Drugs with no real benefit.
How is that not enough of a good argument?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
Their economy might be crap right now, but they at least have low drug crime and addiction.
Besides, if you value "productivity" over rights, move to Singapore. You'd love it there.
Would be much quicker than getting the US laws changed.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-01-20 15:40:19)
Fuck Israel
The enforcement system isn't working well and could do with being adjusted, doesn't mean the laws need to be changed.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Well the fact that we throw billions of dollars at it (the war on drugs) and the statistics show it hasn't directly correlated to either reducing supply/availability and use is enough for me to say its wasted. I wonder what kind of impact there would be if half the money dumped into fighting the war on drugs was funneled to drug education and rehabilitation. Not to say there isn't money dumped into those to things, but maybe there needs to be an adjustment
Fuck Israel
sure it does. should people face mandatory minimum prison sentences for possession of small amounts of any drug? That deals with laws and enforcement, no?
Probably not no, but that would come under adjusting enforcement, not a fundamental change from drugs being illegal to legal.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
sure it does. should people face mandatory minimum prison sentences for possession of small amounts of any drug? That deals with laws and enforcement, no?
Fuck Israel
so we should tell law enforcement what laws to heavily enforce and what laws to relax on instead of changing the laws? that doesn't seem like the proper approach.
The fuzz over-enforce various laws because the make for easy collars, certain drug laws and traffic offences for example, again, doesn't mean the law is wrong.
If its right to tinker with the punishment thats not really a law change.
If its right to tinker with the punishment thats not really a law change.
Fuck Israel
drugs are bad mkay
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
One could easily make the same argument for "the War on Poverty." Are you advocating that we eliminate that, as well? Something like 2 trillion dollars since it's launch, with no significant change in the poverty level in this country.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Well the fact that we throw billions of dollars at it (the war on drugs) and the statistics show it hasn't directly correlated to either reducing supply/availability and use is enough for me to say its wasted. I wonder what kind of impact there would be if half the money dumped into fighting the war on drugs was funneled to drug education and rehabilitation. Not to say there isn't money dumped into those to things, but maybe there needs to be an adjustmentDilbert_X wrote:
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?Turquoise wrote:
The simplest and most pertinent argument is that we waste billions every year on the War on Drugs with no real benefit.
How is that not enough of a good argument?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
Probably ought to scrap it and invest the money elsewhere.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
War on terror is going awesome at least.
Fuck Israel
the war on poverty could use a reallocation of funds as well. Notice I never mentioned scrapping it altogether.FEOS wrote:
One could easily make the same argument for "the War on Poverty." Are you advocating that we eliminate that, as well? Something like 2 trillion dollars since it's launch, with no significant change in the poverty level in this country.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Well the fact that we throw billions of dollars at it (the war on drugs) and the statistics show it hasn't directly correlated to either reducing supply/availability and use is enough for me to say its wasted. I wonder what kind of impact there would be if half the money dumped into fighting the war on drugs was funneled to drug education and rehabilitation. Not to say there isn't money dumped into those to things, but maybe there needs to be an adjustmentDilbert_X wrote:
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
Probably ought to scrap it and invest the money elsewhere.
You're essentially calling for treating it as an actual war, then: interdicting the problem at the source (demand) so you can starve off the army in the field (cartels, gangs, et al).KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
the war on poverty could use a reallocation of funds as well. Notice I never mentioned scrapping it altogether.FEOS wrote:
One could easily make the same argument for "the War on Poverty." Are you advocating that we eliminate that, as well? Something like 2 trillion dollars since it's launch, with no significant change in the poverty level in this country.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Well the fact that we throw billions of dollars at it (the war on drugs) and the statistics show it hasn't directly correlated to either reducing supply/availability and use is enough for me to say its wasted. I wonder what kind of impact there would be if half the money dumped into fighting the war on drugs was funneled to drug education and rehabilitation. Not to say there isn't money dumped into those to things, but maybe there needs to be an adjustment
Probably ought to scrap it and invest the money elsewhere.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I'm arguing for drug legalization, not anarchy.Dilbert_X wrote:
If you value freedom so much move to Somalia - no drug laws there.Turquoise wrote:
See Portugal's policy and results.Dilbert_X wrote:
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
Their economy might be crap right now, but they at least have low drug crime and addiction.
Besides, if you value "productivity" over rights, move to Singapore. You'd love it there.
Would be much quicker than getting the US laws changed.
You're right that changing US laws does take forever though -- at least when it comes to making positive changes.
We're much more likely to restrict freedoms than expand them.
The Wars on Poverty, Drugs, and Terror are all a waste.FEOS wrote:
One could easily make the same argument for "the War on Poverty." Are you advocating that we eliminate that, as well? Something like 2 trillion dollars since it's launch, with no significant change in the poverty level in this country.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Well the fact that we throw billions of dollars at it (the war on drugs) and the statistics show it hasn't directly correlated to either reducing supply/availability and use is enough for me to say its wasted. I wonder what kind of impact there would be if half the money dumped into fighting the war on drugs was funneled to drug education and rehabilitation. Not to say there isn't money dumped into those to things, but maybe there needs to be an adjustmentDilbert_X wrote:
Who says it wasted and of no real benefit?
Compared with, say, that great engine of productivity that is Holland.
Probably ought to scrap it and invest the money elsewhere.
Scrapping welfare would be harder to deal with than being less interventionist and decriminalizing/legalizing drugs, but we could work towards it, at least.
Last edited by Turquoise (2012-01-23 09:47:21)
Marijuana should be legal just because of the sole fact that you can make over 20,000 products from it.