BF2S Forums Learning another language

Eifa wrote:

Shahter wrote:

hey, looks like i'd fit right in. are you, by chance, hiring? i can speak russian, i can pretend i speak english and i certainly can bang people's heads against walls.

do you have engineers degree? and also, you should have to be able to communicate in finnish too.

no degree, no finnish, i'm really good at bashing heads though. no go?

Lucien wrote:

I got pretty far with japanese before I got bored of it/everything in it. learnt 2000+ kanji and about as many words by studying on my own. It's not so much of a waste as Chinese uses the same symbols

As does Korean

In my experience, if you don't understand the culture, you'll never get a truly fluent grasp of their language.

Spent a year learning Korean (DLI),
8 hours a day - 5 days a week in class, then another 4-12 hours a day 6 days a week studying.

I really did not mesh with their psychology and culture.
They are extremely polite to your face, and viciously backstabbing behind your back
I am more "Don't say anything bad about someone that you haven't already said to their face"

And Koreans in a position of authority (teachers) get horribly offended if you stand up while they're 2 inches from your nose berating you.
Army Private - someone's in your face, yelling, you stand at a position of attention.


As a contrast, German makes sense to me.
The literature, the history, the culture, the language.
Even when it's nonsensical, idiomatic, idiotic, or pig-headed - it's "yeah. No surprise. fits my understanding of German speakers"

Hell, Farsi/Dari/Tajik and Arabic (MSA/Iraqi) made some sense.
I don't agree with their psychology and culture, but it has a particular, peculiar consistency to it.
(i.e., there is no objective truth.
There is relative truth, outright lies to illustrate a point, and evasions/half-truths. 
All based on a calculated estimate of your standing/position/power relative to the other person)

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-01-16 07:49:28)

aerodynamic wrote:

Are you saying people from other countries don't backstab? Its not only a Korean thing(which tbh i haven't noticed that much), but its global, its part of human nature. Also everybody says "ohh don't say bad stuff about someone behind their back and i never do it"...i'm sorry but that's just bullshit. Everybody ends up saying bad stuff about someone behind their back eventually.

They get offended because its a sign of disrespect. You do not disrespect someone who is older than you and is in a higher position than you (i.e. the teacher), if someone who is older than you is talking to you, you sit there quietly and listen to them until he is finished, then you can respond.
Teachers do not go easy on you, they will hit you in school and punish you if do not behave correctly. Its good, it doesn't allow kids to say to teachers "shut up, fuck you" like they do in most of the western countries, like in Italy.

In my experience, if you are a peer or a superior, the Koreans aren't culturally permitted to say anything bad to your face in a professional environment.
But, when a person is not present, there is a cultural imperative to set the social heirarchy.
Good, bad or otherwise - doesn't matter.  Just how they are.

Just between the US, Korean, and Arabic cultures, there are a great many of those cultural differences that, to one culture something may mean absolutely nothing, but to another culture is an essential key to their whole cultural makeup.  For example, the different forms of language used depending on your standing compared to the listener - major point in Japanese (5 forms?), major point in Korean (2 forms), minor point in German (Du/Sie), nearly absent in English (Sir/you - yeah/yes).  Male/female, religion, and caste issues in the Middle East, for another example - matter of life and death on one side, perhaps, negligible detail in the other culture.

If you get stuck on "right/wrong" regarding these differences, you're not going to "get" that culture.
You have to think in terms of what's different, and what the importance of that difference is within that culture.
When you're working within that culture, you have to work with those essential differences in mind in terms of their value within that culture.

Aero, Don't much care if you're "sorry", it's not bullshit.
In my culture, it is the sign of a weak man to say things behind another man's back that you wouldn't dare say to their face.
In a professional environment, I will distrust anyone who would say something with career influencing negative implications, if the person in question is not there to defend themselves.
In other words, at work, do NOT talk shit about someone's job performance, unless they are there to speak in their own defense.


And, as a part of military culture, you stand at a position of attention (or parade rest) when you are being berated by a superior.
You don't tell them "shut up, fuck you". 
You stand there, take it face to face, as a soldier, with the appropriate "yes, sir" or "no, sir" if asked for a response.
But a solider will stand, face to face, as a professional and as a soldier.
We don't play Mickey Mouse big man/little man games.

You are who you are, and if you can't stand up and accept who you are, you aren't shit.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-01-16 10:42:34)

aerodynamic wrote:

Plus, why are you comparing the Military culture with the civilian culture?

One of my examples was while as a soldier, dealing with a Korean instructor.

My other examples are from civilian professional and personal life in "flyover state" USA.

aerodynamic wrote:

But what you are saying is; since Korean culture does not allow people to argue/reply to people who are superior to you WILL talk shit about them in the back...it's not true.

Not what I said.
One, "if you are a peer or a superior, the Koreans aren't culturally permitted to say anything bad to your face in a professional environment."
Then
Two, to phrase it another way, within a peer group, the setting of your standing within that group is set while you are not present.

And, to add, a third. 
Koreans seem to be quite rude to those below them socially. 
Teachers to students, mothers to children, bosses to subordinates.
Professionalism, consideration, and respect seem to be completely lacking in that direction.
Very much a stark contrast to the unfailing politeness in the other direction.

Very offensive to my personal sensibilities.
To me, it speaks volumes about a person, how they treat children, subordinates, or the poor.
Treat people fairly, and with respect - especially those that you could get away with treating badly.
Being kind because you have to isn't much - being kind because that's who you are says something about you.

And, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I seem to have had an allergic reaction to the Korean language and culture.
Don't hate them - just don't have much interest in having anything to do with their language or culture anymore.

No visits to China, Japan, or Korea for me.
Mongolia, sure - the rest of Asia, probably not.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-01-16 11:11:19)

aerodynamic wrote:

For the family part, Koreans raise their kids in a different way.
You won't see the over protection of kids that you see in America or Europe.
Kids are raised hard, you follow the discipline, you respect the rules, you respect people older than you, you do what you are told and you are not an intensive care vegetable.
You end up maturing much faster and rely on your self much faster.

Large difference between the urban "intensive care vegetable" upper middle class kids in the US, and the rest of the US.
Exactly what you wrote applies directly to kids raised in non-urban Alaska or Montana, for the most part.
Kids help with the house, the farm, the ranch, or whatever.
Carpentry, plumbing, hunting, fishing, fixing mechanical equipment - it is expected you know a little of all of these as a kid here.

aerodynamic wrote:

and please do not lecture me about, "What your personality is", "being good to everybody" etc...
Its obnoxious.

ps. I do not mean to attack you personally with that last sentence but I've been lectured on that many times by people, and it just drives me nuts.

Not intended as a lecture, simply as an illustration of my perspective.
There may be a stereotype of the pushy, preachy American thinking everyone has to think as I do, that my way is (of course) the objectively right way to do things.
I'm not one of them.

I'm a big fan of bending over backwards to understand another culture, as long as both sides are equally understanding.
When in Korea, play by Korean rules - When in the US, play by US rules.
When you're somewhere in between, both sides have to understand both sets of customs and expectations.
Probably a Western concept of fairness, but it's the best I've got.

rdx-fx wrote:

aerodynamic wrote:

For the family part, Koreans raise their kids in a different way.
You won't see the over protection of kids that you see in America or Europe.
Kids are raised hard, you follow the discipline, you respect the rules, you respect people older than you, you do what you are told and you are not an intensive care vegetable.
You end up maturing much faster and rely on your self much faster.

Large difference between the urban "intensive care vegetable" upper middle class kids in the US, and the rest of the US.
Exactly what you wrote applies directly to kids raised in non-urban Alaska or Montana, for the most part.
Kids help with the house, the farm, the ranch, or whatever.
Carpentry, plumbing, hunting, fishing, fixing mechanical equipment - it is expected you know a little of all of these as a kid here.

aerodynamic wrote:

and please do not lecture me about, "What your personality is", "being good to everybody" etc...
Its obnoxious.

ps. I do not mean to attack you personally with that last sentence but I've been lectured on that many times by people, and it just drives me nuts.

Not intended as a lecture, simply as an illustration of my perspective.
There may be a stereotype of the pushy, preachy American thinking everyone has to think as I do, that my way is (of course) the objectively right way to do things.
I'm not one of them.

I'm a big fan of bending over backwards to understand another culture, as long as both sides are equally understanding.
When in Korea, play by Korean rules - When in the US, play by US rules.
When you're somewhere in between, both sides have to understand both sets of customs and expectations.
Probably a Western concept of fairness, but it's the best I've got.

Korean culture relies on the ancient traditions, way too much even for my opinion.
I am 100% with discipline and the way kids are raised in Korea in families and school but the hierarchy bothers me a lot to.

Eifa wrote:

Sisco wrote:

Eifa wrote:

nah, i work at a inspection station.. (mot test station)
we do the yearly check ups to the cars, change the owners and do all the stupid paperwork with the cars.
and you can't believe how unbelievably difficult it is sometimes with the russians.. not saying that it's easy with other people but still..
"have you taken an insurance for the car" "yesyes, i had in my old car" "but have you taken one for your new car" "yes yes the insurance in the old car" .. that's about where you want to start banging your head against the wall.

Lemme tell you, it´s not easier to try to tell them from what time on breakfast starts, where the nearest bus station is to get to the city center or how to get into the hotel after midnight. I´m a night clerk at said hotel and we get suprisingly large numbers of Russians as guests.

get my point then? basics would help a lot.
@shahter, i think it's a no go

I absolutely understand you. I have the same issues at work with Italians too, because there are even less that speak english than Russians it seems, but with Italian I at least understand most of the stuff they tell me, so I can "gesture" what I´m trying to tell them

Eifa wrote:

Sisco wrote:

Eifa wrote:

get my point then? basics would help a lot.
@shahter, i think it's a no go

I absolutely understand you. I have the same issues at work with Italians too, because there are even less that speak english than Russians it seems, but with Italian I at least understand most of the stuff they tell me, so I can "gesture" what I´m trying to tell them

Shahter, don't they teach english at all in russian schools? I'm guessing it would be a lot more easier if all the russian people would just bother to learn how to speak english.. not a difficult language to learn. :S

i don't know what they teach in those paces anymore. i had a look at an english exercise book they use recently and it was one big nonsense. what's even funnier is that there's a big debate going on atm about whether or not we should allow religion courses to be included in state schools' program. that's just sad, tbh.

Last edited by Shahter (2012-01-17 00:08:22)

nukchebi0 wrote:

Every young person I met in Russia knew English to a passable level, with the exception of one of the program assistants from Siberia. My host family said that older Russians usually don't know how to speak English because it wasn't widely taught in Soviet schools in the 1960s and 1970s, but that it is an important part of a Russian high school curriculum today.

you were in st.petersburg, moscow and... anywhere else? also, you didn't speak much english to people in the streets - those young people you met were there as part of the program, right?

in soviet schools they taught mostly german, french and english - one to choose from. the course was four years, mandatory for everybody. if anything, in soviet union they taught foreign languages a lot better than now, but there was no real practice for most of the people and it simply "wore off". today you pretty much have to take a tutor or special course - you are not going to learn much in the ways of foreign languages in normal russian state school.