BF2S Forums National Defense Authorization Act of 2012

Macbeth stop being such an annoying cunt I can read what you're writing alright? You don't have to spam up my entire fucking screen with your shit.

I'm trying to find stats that compare gun related injuries in various countries. The amount of injuries in the US alone is A USELESS STATISTIC if you want to figure out the effect gun ownership has on gun crime. Could you please tell me the relevance of your incessant spamming if I can't reproduce similar stats from various nations?

Macbeth wrote:

Hunting rifles aren't guns?!

hurr hurr durr hurr.

If I (a european) am writing about gun laws in the US what the fuck do you think I'm referring to?

Spearhead wrote:

Jay wrote:

Shocking wrote:

That's not the picture I'm trying to paint, either. I know the US is safe. (the incidences involving gun crime in riots were right from looking at the riots in the wiki list and searching for the word "gunshot" or "gun") I'm just pointing out why I feel firearm ownership doesn't make sense. I don't feel it adds any safety to the society whatsoever, I don't see the necessity for them either.

It's not about society as a whole, it's about safety as an individual. Are you an individual person or are you a group of people? Do you value your life more than you value the lives of others? Why wouldn't you? I'm not saying that people should go around taking the lives of other people, I'm saying that you as a singular person should have the ability to defend yourself. Taking a martial arts class is not realistic. Owning a $50 hand gun is.

You're making the exact same arguments that the nobility of Europe made against the crossbow when it was invented. The pope made it illegal because it equalized the battlefield between the nobility on horseback and the peasant who was supposed to stand there and let the lord kill him for sport.

Whats your opinion on large magazines for glocks used by the Arizona shooter?

Large magazines make the weapon more difficult to conceal. Forcing the guy to reload sooner wouldn't have really changed anything. If you lower the rounds per magazine then a really intent person could and probably would just carry more weapons

Jay wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Jay wrote:

It's not about society as a whole, it's about safety as an individual. Are you an individual person or are you a group of people? Do you value your life more than you value the lives of others? Why wouldn't you? I'm not saying that people should go around taking the lives of other people, I'm saying that you as a singular person should have the ability to defend yourself. Taking a martial arts class is not realistic. Owning a $50 hand gun is.

You're making the exact same arguments that the nobility of Europe made against the crossbow when it was invented. The pope made it illegal because it equalized the battlefield between the nobility on horseback and the peasant who was supposed to stand there and let the lord kill him for sport.

Whats your opinion on large magazines for glocks used by the Arizona shooter?

Large magazines make the weapon more difficult to conceal. Forcing the guy to reload sooner wouldn't have really changed anything. If you lower the rounds per magazine then a really intent person could and probably would just carry more weapons

But a large 30 round magazine for a full auto handgun.... is surely not just for defense?

My mother is a flaming bleeding heart libtard and I have many convos with her (I disagree with her often but we come from the same place at least). Her point is :  at what point does carrying so much heat become a threat to public safety?

I agree though, a "War on Guns" would be catastrophic and pointless.  But the people profiting here are the manufacturers/dealers.  Is there not a profit motive for the arms industry to keep assault weapons legal?

Last edited by Spearhead (2012-01-04 15:37:33)

Jay wrote:

It's not about society as a whole, it's about safety as an individual. Are you an individual person or are you a group of people? Do you value your life more than you value the lives of others? Why wouldn't you? I'm not saying that people should go around taking the lives of other people, I'm saying that you as a singular person should have the ability to defend yourself. Taking a martial arts class is not realistic. Owning a $50 hand gun is.

The idea of knowing that every other individual around me is also carrying a gun really doesn't make me feel safe. Anyway, gun laws impact society as much as it does the individual, the effects on a macro scale ought to be considered. The point is that if every individual can defend him/herself 'equally', society ought to be safer, no?

I can't compare allowing the army and police to carry firearms but not civillians to peasants in the middle ages using crossbows. 'The past is a foreign country' and all that, vastly different societies.

Last edited by Shocking (2012-01-04 15:43:39)

Dilbert_X wrote:

I agree though, a "War on Guns" would be catastrophic and pointless.

What is pointless about making it harder for criminals and crazy people to own guns, esp assault weapons?

A "War on Guns" would make the "War on Drugs" look like a harmless cakewalk.  In other words, busting into peoples houses/vehicles for contraband would kill a lot people/turn the country into chaos/be impossible to win/be unconstitutional.

I'm trying to find stats that compare gun related injuries in various countries.

So you never had the stats on hand before you came in shooting off about how guns are bad?

Could you please tell me the relevance of your incessant spamming if I can't reproduce similar stats from various nations?

Because I use stats to back up my argument. Like I did with my first retort that provided gun deaths numbers and auto death numbers to draw a comparison. You are just running with feelings instead.

If I (a european) am writing about gun laws in the US what the fuck do you think I'm referring to?

Guns?

A gun is a muzzle or breech-loaded projectile-firing weapon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun

Macbeth wrote:

Because I use stats to back up my argument. Like I did with my first retort that provided gun deaths numbers and auto death numbers to draw a comparison. You are just running with feelings instead.

I was arguing that legalising firearms has an effect on crime.
I had the riots page and homicide stats open before I started.
I use logic.
Legalizing firearms for everyone and having an increase in gun-related crime is to be expected.
How does that not make sense to you macbeth?
You legalize weaponry and assume it will not be used in crime?

Is something getting lost in between me writing this down and you processing shit in your brains?
Does it not sound logical to you, that, given I say that gun legality influences gun crime, stats on this matter in the US ought to be compared with those of places where guns are illegal?

Where's the problem here?

Do you suffer from a mental deficiency?

Macbeth wrote:

If I (a european) am writing about gun laws in the US what the fuck do you think I'm referring to?

Guns?

anything other than hunting / clay pigeon shooting / sports involving firearms. i.e. Joe walking in a gun store and buying a gun.

Last edited by Shocking (2012-01-04 15:54:40)

Jay wrote:

[Shocking, do you remember the UK riots last summer? Do you not think they wouldn't have gotten so far out of hand if the store owners had been armed? That's my belief.

And if the rioters were armed?

Didn't the LA riots get a little 'out of hand'? Why didn't guns solve that one?

Jay wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Not forced to at all but if safety is your issue I'd highly recommend it over buying a glock.

Then you're a nitwit. Have you ever even fired a gun? Simplest thing in the world and the ultimate equalizer between human beings. Your society has reverted to feudalism where only the knights and lords were allowed to possess weapons. Tools.

i'm sorry, this is a dumb misconception we really should have stamped out in dst by now. most euro countries are entirely happy with their citizens having firearms, as long as they're not a proven psychopath. your analogy falls apart even more if you actually understand feudal europe, and consider that most lords/barons whoever had their local populace trained for war. in the UK's case it was quite famously the longbow.

Shocking wrote:

I was arguing that legalising firearms has an effect on crime.
I had the riots page and homicide stats open before I started.
I use logic.
Legalizing firearms for everyone and having an increase in gun-related crime is to be expected.
How does that not make sense to you macbeth?

It makes sense. I never disputed any such thing. But as i pointed out it's such a small effect that it isn't worth 'burning the house down' to fix. It's a much smaller issue than other things that cause more death and damage that we also wouldn't and shouldn't 'burn the house down' over.

Also the riot page really doesn't tell you anything that can be useful in this discussion at all.

Is something getting lost in between me writing this down and you processing shit in your brains?

Does it not sound logical to you, that, given I say that gun legality influences gun crime, that stats on this matter ought to be compared with those of places where guns are illegal?

I would debate those numbers with you and other crime numbers if you could at least provide the full available numbers for the first country you started going on about. Dropping some numbers and trying to checkmate when you don't have the full set of info for first country you railed against shows a serious lack of knowledge about what you are talking about. Either that or you are intentionally cherry picking data.

Do you suffer from a mental deficiency?

Macbeth wrote:

If I (a european) am writing about gun laws in the US what the fuck do you think I'm referring to?

Guns?
anything other than hunting / clay pigeon shooting / sports involving firearms. i.e. Joe walking in a gun store and buying a gun.

So you have a problem with the process of buying a gun rather than the guns itself? Hunters also tend to carry pistol for protection when hunting. IIRC, people hunting bears have backups to protect themselves from a bear up close.

I still find it funny you think MMA training is a better home defense tool than a gun by the way.

Jay wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Because I use stats to back up my argument. Like I did with my first retort that provided gun deaths numbers and auto death numbers to draw a comparison. You are just running with feelings instead.

I was arguing that legalising firearms has an effect on crime.
I had the riots page and homicide stats open before I started.
I use logic.
Legalizing firearms for everyone and having an increase in gun-related crime is to be expected.
How does that not make sense to you macbeth?
You legalize weaponry and assume it will not be used in crime?

Is something getting lost in between me writing this down and you processing shit in your brains?
Does it not sound logical to you, that, given I say that gun legality influences gun crime, that stats on this matter ought to be compared with those of places where guns are illegal?

Where's the problem here?

Do you suffer from a mental deficiency?

Macbeth wrote:

If I (a european) am writing about gun laws in the US what the fuck do you think I'm referring to?

Guns?

anything other than hunting / clay pigeon shooting / sports involving firearms. i.e. Joe walking in a gun store and buying a gun.

Shocking, do you remember the UK riots last summer? Do you not think they wouldn't have gotten so far out of hand if the store owners had been armed? That's my belief.

if the store owners had have owned guns, then it's quite likely that a relative/friend/someone quite burglar-able known to the rioters would have had guns so fuck yes lmao. i can't believe you even suggested that.

i'm sorry did you watch the riots? the guys rioting were basically the biggest council estate (think ghetto) trash imaginable. coupled with some hipster dickbags who though it would be interesting. they would have shot up a shop no questions asked before thinking. go back to john wayne land ffs

Last edited by FatherTed (2012-01-04 16:29:15)

FatherTed wrote:

i'm sorry did you watch the riots? the guys rioting were basically the biggest council estate (think ghetto) trash imaginable. coupled with some hipster dickbags who though it would be interesting. they would have shot up a shop no questions asked before thinking. go back to john wayne land ffs

He wasn't alive when the riots happened.