unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

When will it be time? Will it ever be time? It's perpetually in bad taste to criticize Israel to some audiences, possibly resulting in being smeared as anti-Semitic to receiving outright death threats.

Was it necessary to fire a missile at a crowd of civilians you told to flee in the first place? Is bond-villain activity the time to raise a solitary brow? Israel to Hamas: "don't worry about killing the hostages, our bombs will take care of that for you."

A part of my point is precisely that historical abuse as the justification for Israel's being and the disenfranchisement of an entire people. Granted, there's a lot of opportunity for whataboutism when citizens of an historically conquering country point that out, but that does little to dim what's going on in the region currently.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6627|949

Take it to the Isreali Heavy-Handedness thread lol
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3714

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Take it to the Isreali Heavy-Handedness thread lol
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3714

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

When will it be time? Will it ever be time? It's perpetually in bad taste to criticize Israel to some audiences, possibly resulting in being smeared as anti-Semitic to receiving outright death threats.

Was it necessary to fire a missile at a crowd of civilians you told to flee in the first place? Is bond-villain activity the time to raise a solitary brow? Israel to Hamas: "don't worry about killing the hostages, our bombs will take care of that for you."

A part of my point is precisely that historical abuse as the justification for Israel's being and the disenfranchisement of an entire people. Granted, there's a lot of opportunity for whataboutism when citizens of an historically conquering country point that out, but that does little to dim what's going on in the region currently.
I have no special love for Israel. I don't care for their religious claims to the land. I genuinely believe it is a racist country. But 1000s of civilians were killed for no good reason. The Israelis have a right to respond to that and defend themselves. And protesting in favor of the aggressor is just a bad look. If the shoe were on the other foot, and it usually is, Israel would be rightly condemned. Hamas was in the wrong here and they discredited their own model for independence.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Adams_BJ
Russian warship, go fuck yourself
+2,053|6617|Little Bentcock
Time to show restraint is when Hamas launches a rocket barrage and the iron dome intercepts it. Not when they encircle kids dancing at a festival, massacre them and take hundreds of hostages, especially when the whole Palestinian population the world over comes out of the woodwork in support of that terrorist attack.

Hamas knew that Israel would not take that laying down, they knew that the counterstrike would likely be massive and level large swathes of Gaza and kill thousands, and yet they did it anyway. They clearly don't care about their own, and that is why it was a boneheaded decision and any deaths from the retaliation lays with them. Israel has the right do defend themselves, and they should to the fullest extent.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

mac wrote:

protesting in favor of the aggressor
Don't conflate what I'm saying with backing Hamas. That's not what I'm doing. The attack done by Hamas is contemptible. But the kind of "restraint" Israel has right now seems along the lines of telling civilians to flee, cutting off their escape, lobbing missiles at them, and wiping out civilian infrastructure with apparent indiscrimination. Who is that helping?

any deaths from the retaliation lays with them
Also with the retaliation. Sloppy by indirect admission.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

Anyway, this endlessly ongoing state of affairs is in significant part thanks to routine, brutal, oppressive, civilian-targeting occupation and disposition by Israel1 bolstering the politics of organizations like Hamas.

The "Hamas brought it upon themselves" reaction is understandable to an extent, but I get this sense of it being weirdly extended to innocent civilians. An entire population being written off in a dismissive "well, what did you expect, that Israel not commit war crimes? Now's not the time for restraint! Inappropriate to even suggest as much (read the room!). Hamas knew what would happen, all on them! Oh, well! Fates set in stone."

It's possible to respect both the lives of Palestinians and Israelis and while scorning the villainous acts and genocidal language of their governments.

1(not to be conflated with The Jews; that gets tiresome from multiple angles. people critical of Israel referring to them as The Jews, or people defensive of the country calling its critics Jew Haters. like, lol stop.)

ps, am surprised dilbert hasn't weighed in
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3714
I know you aren't a Hamas supporter. I understand you just don't want bloodshed.

A good part of the online discourse is deranged like I said. I genuinely feel it is wrong or at least personally hypocritical to ask Israel "to be the better people" at this moment.

On a side note, it is impressive how the Israel-Palestine conflict actually got worse. Who expected that this year?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

And again, not being the "better people" is part of what got them in this mess in the first place.

Nobody reasonably expects Israeli politics to pull a 180 overnight, especially not after that attack. What we can do is pressure them to stop shooting at refugees and bombing innocent people and civilian infrastructure in some twisted collective punishment.

Maybe they can eventually find a way to conduct their affairs that doesn't engender misery without end.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

SuperJail Warden wrote:

On a side note, it is impressive how the Israel-Palestine conflict actually got worse. Who expected that this year?
Months-old Hamas training videos foreshadowed assault on Israel
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/mo … r-AA1i3wUC

The sleek, high-definition videos, complete with drone shots, appear almost interchangeable with the real-world videos of the carnage Hamas fighters unleashed on southern Israel on Oct. 7, after they breached the militarized borders of the besieged Gaza Strip with tools, construction equipment and even paragliders. They ambushed soldiers at checkpoints and murdered civilians in farming communities, or kibbutzim, taking more than 100 others hostage.
"Israel surely saw [the training videos]," the Reuters news agency quoted a source close to Hamas as saying, "but they were convinced that Hamas wasn't keen on getting into a confrontation."
Assuming that Hamas has released more training videos before those.

On the day of the unprecedented attack, Hamas was helped by numerous logistical and intelligence lapses, according to the New York Times. The newspaper quoted four senior Israeli intelligence officials as saying Israel's spies had "failed to monitor key communication channels used by Palestinian attackers," they had become "overly confident" with their border surveillance systems and there was "a willingness to accept at face value assertions by Gazan military leaders, made on private channels that the Palestinians knew were being monitored by Israel, that they were not preparing for battle."

Shir Hever, an economist who researches the Israeli arms trade and the economic aspects of the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territory, noted that Hamas struck on the last day of Sukkot, a weeklong Jewish holiday during which Israel has, for decades, sealed the Gaza borders.

Israeli officials, Hever said, "are so used to the closure that they didn't expect an attack during Sukkot. They forgot that the closure is an act of oppression and must be enforced with force."

Six days before the Hamas assault, Israeli National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi told Israel's military radio channel: "Hamas is very, very restrained" and "understands the implications of further defiance."

"There is a calm," added Hanegbi. "But it's hard to estimate how long it will last."
In other news, according to Twitter, Hamas is sneaking into America across Biden's border!

Meanwhile, people running low on basic necessities, picking around in their toxic, bombed out wasteland. Shot at while trying to escape, when told to escape. A legitimate humanitarian crisis. But Now Is Not The Time!
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+682|6286|Washington St.
Isn't Hamas relatively tiny? Like only have power in Gaza and not even the WB? I doubt they can be an international terrorist org when really only confined to a 5x25 mile strip of land. Allies elsewhere sure, but not them specifically
Adams_BJ
Russian warship, go fuck yourself
+2,053|6617|Little Bentcock
Hamas should eat some humble pie, release the hostages and ask Israel to come to the table
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3714
Is there any proof Iran ordered this because the talk about holding the Iranians responsible is annoying.

I am not sure if I would even want to HoLd ThEm ReSpOnSiBlE if they did do it.

Jews and Muslims are smoking each other in a part of the world I have never been to. A part of the world I never want to go. Two groups of people I not even fond of.

I don't want to go to a protest or light candles. Don't ask me for money either.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Adams_BJ
Russian warship, go fuck yourself
+2,053|6617|Little Bentcock
I've heard that that part of world is quite beautiful and would have liked to have gone one day.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3714
Go to Utah instead
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6627|949

I would like to have seen Montana
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+682|6286|Washington St.
Mac, go to the Golan Heights if you want to see that area https://www.timeout.com/israel/attracti … an-heights

Ken, I've been to Montana many times and a LOT of what you see in pictures is Glacier NP. Much of Montana is as boring as Eastern WA or Idaho, so make sure you go to the right place
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6627|949

I've been to Montana too haha. I almost went in on an investment property on Flathead Lake! Should have pulled the trigger on that one.

It's a quote from Hunt For Red October.

I would love to backpack in Glacier, but I have a firm restriction on backpacking in grizzly area. I can fuck with black bears all day long, but grizzly country is a firm no from me.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

Takes a special kind of someone want to hike around big-ass bears. One of the things keeping me from camping often, though less scary than the idea of a forest psychopath. Hunting blogs (calm down, mac) have Opinions firing around about special bear rounds they pack in case one shows up to claim their kill. I'd be more of the mind to just let them have it and get on with my day.

Biggest thing I have to worry about here are dogs. There's coyotes, but they want nothing to do with you.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

Elsewhere, this clip was dug up again:



(The Daily Show - We Need to Talk About Israel 9ya)
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6101|eXtreme to the maX
So many angles.

Seems crystal clear Israel, and Netanyahu personally,  had umpteen specific warnings about this attack but decided to let it go ahead, in that respect maybe it is Israel's 9/11
Or was Netanyahu so focused on his settler power base, stealing more land in the West Banks and hog-tying the supreme court that he missed it completely.

"How DARE they attack US in OUR COUNTRY and attack WOMEN and CHILDREN in their OWN HOMES with SUCH BRUTALITY?"
Thats literally exactly how Israel was created, settler militias going village to village, door to door, shooting people, cutting their throats and lobbing grenades through windows, and exactly what they've been doing in the West Bank before the Hamas attack.
Is there another way 700,000 Palestinians could have been made to up and go?


Israel has provoked throughout.
Gaza has been the largest prison in the world for decades with Israel controlling all the borders.

"Israel has held millions of people under a brutal blockade for more than 15 years with the support of the entire western world. That is inhumane and inconceivable, and every solution to this bloody conflict ultimately includes respecting the rights of all people, both in Gaza and Sderot, to live with security and human dignity. And that begins with respecting the most basic rules as set down in the international laws of war, which are designed to reduce the harm to civilians."

If they hadn't been so belligerent and brutal and inhumane we wouldn't have Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda etc. they would never had existed.

Now they are shelling refugee corridors, dropping white phosphorous exactly where they think their own hostages are, and trying very hard to suck in Hezbollah and Iran and troll America into taking them out.

Against this background its certainly very weird to see US politicians lining up to fawn over and be fawned over by the Israelis.

China is now the wildcard, allied with Iran, and one of the few countries making sensible statements.

"China is deeply concerned over the current escalation of tensions and violence between Palestine and Israel. We call on relevant parties to remain calm, exercise restraint and immediately end the hostilities to protect civilians and avoid further deterioration of the situation.

The recurrence of the conflict shows once again that the protracted standstill of the peace process cannot go on. The fundamental way out of the conflict lies in implementing the two-state solution and establishing an independent State of Palestine. The international community needs to act with greater urgency, step up input into the Palestinian question, facilitate the early resumption of peace talks between Palestine and Israel, and find a way to bring about enduring peace. China will continue to work relentlessly with the international community towards that end."

https://time.com/6321901/israel-hamas-p … -solution/

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2023-10-14 22:57:41)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6101|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Anyway, this endlessly ongoing state of affairs is in significant part thanks to routine, brutal, oppressive, civilian-targeting occupation and disposition by Israel1 bolstering the politics of organizations like Hamas.

The "Hamas brought it upon themselves" reaction is understandable to an extent, but I get this sense of it being weirdly extended to innocent civilians. An entire population being written off in a dismissive "well, what did you expect, that Israel not commit war crimes? Now's not the time for restraint! Inappropriate to even suggest as much (read the room!). Hamas knew what would happen, all on them! Oh, well! Fates set in stone."
"Hamas are evil and inhuman, we must respond with evil and inhuman acts of our own"

"Our fight is with Hamas, not the Palestinian people, this is why we have cut off food, water and electricity to 2m people, hospitals etc and are levelling the place before the civilians who can't get out can get out"

"We are going to punish the people of Palestine for the actions of the un-elected Hamas, whereas the Israelis people - who elected Netanyahu on a platform of not making peace, stealing more land and killing more Palestinians are sweetness and light as decreed by god"

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2023-10-14 23:04:56)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6767|PNW

Seen it bandied about that Netanyahu's government had been propping up Hamas for its own political advantage.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6101|eXtreme to the maX
Israel needs Palestinians to be the evil ones

There's been a dramatic rise in violence carried out by extremist Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians in the occupied West Bank this year, with more than 100 incidents reported a month according to the UN. It warns that some 400 people have been driven from their land since the start of 2022.

"Our vision is that all of the land of Israel will be settled with Jews. It's our basic right. Our right is in the Bible," says Yehuda Lieber, a 26-year-old father of two. He is encouraged by the fact that some of those in government share his ideology and believes that eventually Israel will retroactively authorise his outpost.

"We have an expectation from the government that was elected by right-wing votes to settle the land, expand the settlements, and not hurt them," he says.

The head of the Israeli Shin Bet domestic security service was recently quoted as warning that the spike in settler attacks was in turn driving Palestinians to attack Israelis saying: "Jewish terror incites Palestinian terror."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66620250
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3714
Imagine working hard to have a career, buy a house, and start a family.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/piksel/piksel1406/piksel140600070/29670390-happy-family-of-four.jpg

Then some radicalized Muslim breaks into your house to kill you because of war that happened before your parents were even born.
https://media.gettyimages.com/id/950738590/fr/photo/cambrioleur-rompre-%C3%A0-la-maison.jpg?s=170667a&w=gi&k=20&c=VukufiHj1oaSZj2a2ylOr0iwGjYpvnP7uPddrRroB4k=
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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