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RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,687|5488|Oxferd Ohire
Internet atheists would say yes.

Westboro doesn't kill people that I know of and isn't funded by a foreign government protected by the west for oil
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+403|2470

uziq wrote:

yes, there is, and it has been named, repeatedly. wahhabism, salafism, fundamentalist islam. it is fascistic and there is no place for it in the world.

meanwhile 99.9% of muslims, particularly those living in the west, do not subscribe to this ideology.

why does this confuse you so much? is every christian answerable for the westboro baptist church?
Do 99.9% of white Americans not subscribe to white supremacism? That's obviously not true. And it's obviously true that a significant amount of Muslims perhaps even a majority believe in some aspects of Islamic supremacism even if they don't always condone violence perpetrated in its name.

And while I do agree that the Muslims living in the U.S. are a mostly benign minority, much more so than black people even, I believe that once the population of Muslims reach a certain threshold they get involved in identity politics and organizing in a way that promotes Islamism and violence. France seems to have reached that threshold.
uziq
Member
+342|2203

RTHKI wrote:

Internet atheists would say yes.

Westboro doesn't kill people that I know of and isn't funded by a foreign government protected by the west for oil
okay, great, switch westboro for 'opus dei' and talk to me about its role in, say, the governance of ireland and all of the lives it has ruined there.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,839|5523|USA

uziq wrote:

do you think christians would behave magnanimously if they were singled out and ridiculed in public by public or state officials? how many years or decades do you think it would take before mormons or evangelicals started going postal? really make u think. but sure, mehmet the shopkeeper and abdul the taxi-driver are really to blame. they are practically suicide bombers anyway!
Mormon history is already drenched in blood, militantcy, and racism. Members today are either unaware, look back on it with pride, denial, or as reason to leave. If the church started more recently like it did in the 1800s there would be TV crews filming the ATF/FBI raid on the polygamy compound.

Until '78 they barred black people from the highest advancements and the "highest heavens." I can't imagine what mental gymnastics happens behind the skulls of non-white members.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+403|2470
Ruminating on past Mormon dysfunction isn't going to stop the next French beheading.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,839|5523|USA

It was an aside, anyway.

Do you have anything planned for assuming a wacky Mormon identity?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+403|2470
You are already our wacky Mormon. We don't need two.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,839|5523|USA

Not in decades (and not like it was my choice to begin with) but ok.

Meanwhile you bounce between troll personas like they're going out of style.
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,754|5444
I was once confronted by two Mormon girls in Switzerland. Took me off guard to find some so eastwards. We had a riveting discussion before bidding each other farewell.

Un13, are you not an example of the possibility for all mankind? I think so.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,839|5523|USA

Sounds like something out of a James Bond novel.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,707|4857|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

when has islam's principles and rules about holy imagery ever interfered with their ability to live peaceably in the west? when has their proscriptions on representations of allah or muhammad ever been an obstacle to their integration?
The simple answer is they haven't integrated and have no plans to.

France is supposed to be secular and allows unlimited freedom of speech, why would muslims choose to live there if neither are compatible with their religion? It seems obvious they have no intention of complying with any of France's values, their intention is to ignore or overturn them, or bully the French into giving them up.

Some mosques will be burned down next, then we'll see how moderate your average French muslim really is.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+342|2203
who is 'they'? plenty of muslims have integrated and are citizens of secular democracies. 99.99% of them don't subscribe to the medievalist-hardline interpretation of sunni islam. most of them are civil, law-abiding, friendly people; they are just as shocked by beheadings and suicide bombings as any other decent human being.

take the turks for example. larssen is seriously trying to portray them as fundamentalist muslims who are radically ill-disposed against western values and culture. bracketing off erdogan's nationalism for a start and his leaning hard into culture wars (as do trump, the tories, duda, orban, etc), there is just no way that you can characterize the vast majority of modern turks in that way. they drink, smoke, get tattoos, go to bars and nightclubs; their men and women adopt western standards of dress; they support football teams, and so on. of course there is a religious community in turkey who are set against these values; but so are there religious groups and conservatives in the west who pour scorn and censure on western 'liberal' values.

there's a weird effect where any muslim who does show signs of integrating or getting along with western culture is accused (by white right-wing pundits, of all people) of not 'being a real muslim'. as if the only 'real' types of muslim are those ones who grow beards and mutter under their breath about bringing down the west. it's an awfully self-fulfilling bit of presentiment, that. lots of people raised in notionally 'muslim' cultures like turkey end up not being strictly observant. how many self-identifying christians in the west commit venial sins, every day, as part of the conflict between contemporary lifestyles and christian proscriptions? is there this same torch-bearing crusade to declare them 'unbelievers' or 'not real christians'? of course not. only islamophobia stokes up this puritanism.
Larssen
Member
+43|638
It's unbelievable what a stretch of the truth you have to deploy to characterise my description of turks in Europe and turkey's influence as portraying them like fundamentalist muslims. Never did I write any of that. I repeatedly highlighted that Erdogan is contributing to instability in our democracies and inciting 'culture war' through his attempts to influence the European turkish diaspora & that the move to create a European school of Islam is a threat to his grip on that community. Never did I link it to wahhabism and salafism. Beyond that it is an objectively verifiable truth that 60-70% of Turks in Germany and the benelux vote for Erdogan in Turkish national elections. I've already extensively argued why this is problematic.

See:

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/wah … -1.4028731

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achter … ~b1884881/

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2014/08/13 … 1-2059106/

Last edited by Larssen (2020-10-30 06:18:56)

uziq
Member
+342|2203
all of the above can be said in exactly the same way about ethno-nationalists in europe. you don't give a fuck about them. you act like they're difficult negotiating partners at your bureaucrat summits, and that's it. but in erdogan's case it's apocalyptic, as if he's promoting radical wahhabism and encouraging suicide bombing. even the religious-leaning traditionalism of erdogan is nowhere NEAR fundamentalist islam.

why does it matter if many turks vote in support of erdogan and have nationalist pride? why is this incompatible with western values or politics, again? they are not connected to radicalised terrorists beheading people in france. there is nothing within western liberal ideology that says you can't have religious belief or national pride. you are alarmist about turks in the benelux countries but seemingly don't care about the majority numbers of people in poland who march under hardline catholic-nationalist banners. are they an existential threat to the western way of life?

turkey and its intelligence forces cooperate with western nations in handing over islamic terrorists, fighting against ISIS/ISIL etc. for you to even drag europe's turkish population into the 'islamic terror threat' discussion is basically a calumny on a moderate people.

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-30 06:26:46)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,707|4857|eXtreme to the maX
I'm sure you'll be apologising for the muslims and turks as you're carried off to the gulag for breaking sharia law.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Larssen
Member
+43|638
Turkish forces abused the 'fighting against ISIL' guise to decimate Kurdish populations on the border regions with Syria and Iraq. They are doing the bare minimum to appease NATO interest and uphold the rapidly crumbling belief that they are a valuable strategic partner. I suppose you entirely missed the increasing tensions between western Europe and Turkey over all sorts of issues, whether that be migration, the requirements in its ties with the EU, the conflicts with cyprus and greece and so on. This doesn't even touch on Erdogan's very visible beratement of European politics & leadership at any given opportunity. His clear hostility, with slight accomodation only behind closed doors, is also seriously feeding into the popularity of far right politics in continental Europe AND friction between emigrant Turks and 'natives'.

I believe it's a fucking affront to the society if your immigrant diaspora campaigns for and massively votes an autocrat strongman who has spent his time stripping bare all semblance of the separation of powers, who tramples on human rights and who moreover frames you as the enemy at any given moment. If that same population also overwhelmingly votes SPD, Labour or other socialist/democrats here, I'd like to see you explain that glaring hypocrisy to non-Turkish people.

I know there's 'reasons for it' but this is a HUGE source of friction that you can't just casually ignore by calling out far right racism.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-10-30 06:37:52)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+403|2470
The west was unfair to Turkey in regards to the Syrian Civil War. It wasn't fair that Turkey had to deal with refugees from crisis in Iraq and Syria that the west had a role in creating. Further, if we are in fact military allies, we should have been willing to back up Turkish military and political goals in their neighborhood.
uziq
Member
+342|2203

Larssen wrote:

I believe it's a fucking affront to the society if your immigrant diaspora campaigns for and massively votes an autocrat strongman who has spent his time stripping bare all semblance of the separation of powers, who tramples on human rights and who moreover frames you as the enemy at any given moment. If that same population also overwhelmingly votes SPD, Labour or other socialist/democrats here, I'd like to see you explain that glaring hypocrisy to non-Turkish people.
but people in the west are voluntarily voting for leaders who will do the exact same thing ... why are you so alarmist about turkish immigrants?

can you seriously not see why moderate, law-abiding people who are exercising their rights to vote or support whomever they want, are seriously pissed when condescending EU bureaucrat-types like yourself go on and on about 'islam having a serious problem?' HALF OF EUROPE are voting the same way and leaning towards a strong-man model of politics. the most influential democracy in the WORLD has a strong-man leader who is campaigning on dismantling human rights laws, the separation of powers, etc.

this isn't mere whatabouttery. it's how the political process works. what, you expect all turks to be enlightened social democrats and not to favour erdogan's own posturing? it's a reaction to a geopolitical game, and a calculation on his own part. russia, the US and many major powers are opting for increasingly autocratic models of governance. but that moderate muslims also lean towards traditionalist-reactionary politics is somehow a major red flag to you? come on ...

https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2019/12/931/524/TrumpJentezenprayer1.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-30 07:03:28)

Larssen
Member
+43|638

Superjail Warden wrote:

The west was unfair to Turkey in regards to the Syrian Civil War. It wasn't fair that Turkey had to deal with refugees from crisis in Iraq and Syria that the west had a role in creating. Further, if we are in fact military allies, we should have been willing to back up Turkish military and political goals in their neighborhood.
I agree - to a point - with your first sentence, not the second. NATO is about article 5, not a support group for every incidence of violence. If article 5 isn't invoked, there is no expectation of aid beyond cooperation to streamline among various armies, monitor the security situation etc. Throughout NATO history there have been multiple military coups in Turkey for one.

That being said many countries do help eachother in various ways. Turkey has received plenty secondary and analytical support from the allies in the shape of anti air defence, surveillance & radar capabilities and so forth.

As for the refugee issues, the EU struck a deal with them that included massive financial aid to support the state in absorbing refugees. They're not actually doing so though and I reckon most of that money goes elsewhere.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-10-30 07:06:26)

uziq
Member
+342|2203

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm sure you'll be apologising for the muslims and turks as you're carried off to the gulag for breaking sharia law.
turkey doesn't have sharia law. it is a secular democracy. it could go that way, of course, but then again so could poland tip into theocratic rule akin to catholic ireland in earlier times, too. they've already just outlawed abortion and consigned many hundreds of thousands of women to a gulag of their own. but i bet you're more interested in women drivers in saudi arabia. how very curious!

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-30 07:19:00)

Larssen
Member
+43|638

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

I believe it's a fucking affront to the society if your immigrant diaspora campaigns for and massively votes an autocrat strongman who has spent his time stripping bare all semblance of the separation of powers, who tramples on human rights and who moreover frames you as the enemy at any given moment. If that same population also overwhelmingly votes SPD, Labour or other socialist/democrats here, I'd like to see you explain that glaring hypocrisy to non-Turkish people.
but people in the west are voluntarily voting for leaders who will do the exact same thing ... why are you so alarmist about turkish immigrants?

can you seriously not see why moderate, law-abiding people who are exercising their rights to vote or support whomever they want, are seriously pissed when condescending EU bureaucrat-types like yourself go on and on about 'islam having a serious problem?' HALF OF EUROPE are voting the same way and leaning towards a strong-man model of politics. the most influential democracy in the WORLD has a strong-man leader who is campaigning on dismantling human rights laws, the separation of powers, etc.

this isn't mere whatabouttery. it's how the political process works. what, you expect all turks to be enlightened social democrats and not to favour erdogan's own posturing? it's a reaction to a geopolitical game, and a calculation on his own part. russia, the US and many major powers are opting for increasingly autocratic models of governance. but that moderate muslims also lean towards traditionalist-reactionary politics is somehow a major red flag to you? come on ...
When did I ever wave away concerns about increasing authoritarianism in the west? I'm evidently arguing against it. I don't see how my point against far right sentiments in emigrant communities is somehow irreconcilable with the existence of far right leaders in Europe and America. Have I ever held a candle for far right authoritarians?

No, you're derailing. There's also a cause and effect here. While most immigrant communities are already being blamed for all sorts of ills in the world, they'll go out to then vote -in great numbers- for authoritarians who oppress and smother democracy or any notion of equal rights within countries of origin. What sort of reaction do you expect that will provoke? Are they immune to criticism? How can you appeal for anti-racism and fair treatment in the west while gleefully promoting the destruction and oppression of all minorities 'back home'? There's some twisted 'stick it to The Man/the West' logic at work there, such pride! An exercise in self-mutilation that will only be met with reinforced, emboldened intolerance in western countries.

But key is that I don't primarily blame their communities entirely and see a strong relationship between the reach of autocrat, oppressive government institutions into their emigrant populations and a support for said oppressive government in the country of origin. i.e., again, cut off that influence and be one step closer to removing the vicious cycle of identitarian politics & authoritarianism from our society.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-10-30 07:24:23)

uziq
Member
+342|2203
well, i agree with you about cutting off funding and blocking off maleficent influences. but it's not quite so simple as that when it's the official government of their home country/ethnicity. that raises all sorts of paradoxes about identity in multicultural/pluralist democracies, in general. it really comes down to just how textbook a 'liberal' you are and how much freedom you're willing to grant groups to vote and think as they like. including, yes, to vote in support of illiberal measures or religious beliefs that supersede the official secular ethos of the country. again, we understand this as part of the freedom of choice in western countries already. religious blocs and faith voters are not exactly novel, nor are patriots or nationalists.

the central paradox, of course, is one of 'forced integration' in liberal democracy. good luck puzzling that one out. it sounds like it's already causing you great frustration.

i have no desire to see the west burn and i'm definitely not pro-erdogan, just like i'm not pro-xi. don't know why i have to keep saying this when i'm hardly banner-waving for how brilliant their societies or political ideologies are. you mentioning the voting choices of turks, though, in a discussion about people being beheaded by radicals in france, is pretty conspicuous. nothing about the traditional islamism of erdogan's party makes appeals to that level of fundamentalism. turkish people do not hold those beliefs. how many turkish berliners would cut your head off over a matter of disrespecting islam or drawing muhammad? come on.

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-30 07:29:23)

Larssen
Member
+43|638
After so many pages I've lost track of why this started, but it has been on my mind since Erdogan and his cronies decided to dominate newspapers by hurling all manner of insults to the French president for his utterance that 'Islam is in crisis' or that he wouldn't give up cartoons. Clearly some of the measures also impact their policies towards diaspora so I'm sure dear friend Recep had a fit of rage and needed to vent. Also goes to show that France's response to the beheading is much, much more extensive than simply tackling the specific causes of this incident.
uziq
Member
+342|2203
i think it's entirely, depressingly foreseeable that macron's grandstanding over the issue and making huge political speeches about 'the nature of islam' is going to be used for maximal gain by national leaders like erdogan. as i said above, if macron has one eye on the populist right in his country and to vote capture based on their 'hot button issues' (british tories signal to the UKIP crowd on 'migrants' and 'brexit'), clearly there are also other political parties/regimes in power elsewhere in the world who are ensuring their electoral success through the SAME calculus.

i honestly have no good answers to what is happening in france. it is a clusterfuck. things are heating up and it's just as sad as when people take guns to rallies and protests in the USA and random people get killed. some people will see in it an end-of-days spectacle of dark forces in society, like antifa and communism, posing a grave threat; others will see over-excited or indoctrinated youths with guns who spend too much time on message boards. for whatever reason, and as i said in a previous post, again, france has doubled-down on this issue and is testing its 'freedom of speech' principles to the extreme. this is not a simple matter for anyone, even echt-liberal political theorists. should freedom of speech entail a society's ability to project religious leaders on the side of municipal buildings in acts of open ridicule? the context and dynamics are so complex that i really couldn't give a satisfactory summa to that. but what is depressingly foreseeable is that young, radicalised, on-edge people will go postal and that more beheadings will happen.

what i do see, and this isn't anti-western of me, is that a lot of political leaders are inflaming extremely volatile, impossible-to-control issues for political purposes and electoral gain. these tensions and paradoxes, everyday contradictions, grey areas, etc, are always with us in pluralist democracies. that is the standard, default mode of operation. democracies are characterized by contradiction: that's what keeps them from being authoritarian. as soon as a group starts pushing one of the many highly sensitive issues like 'freedom of speech vs respect for religious beliefs', shit is going to blow up. and that goes for any democratic country.
uziq
Member
+342|2203

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

I'm sure you'll be apologising for the muslims and turks as you're carried off to the gulag for breaking sharia law.
turkey doesn't have sharia law. it is a secular democracy. it could go that way, of course, but then again so could poland tip into theocratic rule akin to catholic ireland in earlier times, too. they've already just outlawed abortion and consigned many hundreds of thousands of women to a gulag of their own. but i bet you're more interested in women drivers in saudi arabia. how very curious!
https://twitter.com/notesfrompoland/sta … 63616?s=24

the men in white bands are neo-nazis. attacking abortion rights protestors in a country that has just effectively outlawed abortion.

where's your great concern for the future of western civilisation now these ethno-nationalist catholic right-wingers are lynching people in the streets?

https://twitter.com/darreneuronews/stat … 97856?s=21

Last edited by uziq (2020-10-30 12:26:00)

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