Larssen
Member
+99|1918
Not reading anything out the ordinary here compared to capital cities all over the west. The differences are subtle and somewhat cultural, at most, materially there's a lot of similarities.

I never understood the obsession with cramming styles of learning popular in many asian countries. Doesn't make for smarter kids.
uziq
Member
+492|3482
not reading anything different to capital cities in the west? lol ...

the price of property in the seoul area has gone up something like 70x in the space of 2-3 generations. hence the need for immense family hand-me-downs and frustration at dwindling social mobility. there really is no comparison to how fast the economy and development here took off, from third world africa levels of economic activity to 10th largest economy in about 30 years.

most banks and mortgage lenders here will actually lend based on a 1-2% deposit. i don't know much about germany but in the UK you need 10-20% to even be considered by a bank, plus a very healthy salary. korean lending has to be insane because the property market and cost-of-living is supercharged compared to stagnating average wages.

bear in mind that korea's 'hours worked' are the highest in the OECD, by quite a margin. they're fourth globally, only behind costa rica, mexico and colombia. germany's is the lowest. so, erm, very comparable, i guess. koreans work as if they're still an impoverished developing country, even though they're now at the top table.
https://data.oecd.org/chart/6DBV
(this data might not be perfect or comprehensive globally, but it's a good general indicator).

they work 2x as many hours as your average german and property is about 4x as expensive relative to the average salary. 'subtle differences', indeed. you try working 60 hours a week for that average salary of $33,000 USD, in a city where a first apartment costs half a million $.

but otherwise, yes, it's as i said: here is a particularly concentrated form of the malaises seen anywhere under 'late capitalism'. just here you can see the material changes within the span of a single three-generation family household. from war-torn and famine-struck peasantry to multimillionaires, often times based on where your grandparents had their cabbage patch in 1973. – or more often not.

I never understood the obsession with cramming styles of learning popular in many asian countries. Doesn't make for smarter kids.
up to now in this stage of their development, they haven't needed innovators, disruptors, creatives, etc. they've needed to build a large, stable middle-class of professionals, corporate drones, services workers, etc. as well as emphasizing science and technology roles. a lot of that stuff can be acquired through rote learning and cramming. you might not get brilliant technicians, engineers, accountants and surveyors, etc, through cramming but you'll get capable ones. 'independent thinking' isn't required for the vast majority of professional roles.

you'll actually find that a lot of the senior and elite roles in samsung and so on, the high-level innovation stuff, the solid-state, semiconductor, type stuff, they employ americans or germans, at least for short whiles to acquire their expertise. such tech-sector jobs are one of the very few ways to get a good employment visa here if you're a westerner.

also: confucianism. for most of their long histories they were very hierarchical societies with a lawyer/scholar class responsible for running the state. admittance to the large bureaucracy and 'educated', literate/numerate lifestyles was via an extremely rote-memorization-heavy examinations process. you can still see this in the civil service exams processes in china, korea, etc, today. 100,000s apply every year for a tiny number of posts.

Last edited by uziq (2022-03-08 09:11:53)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+637|3750
I never read anything regarding the efficiency of cramming. I don't think it is a big area of research in the U.S. since it isn't something we do. I doubt the South Koreans take many classes on urban diversity like we do either. Every place is different.

I would say that the majority of kids in failing schools in America would do better if they had less downtime and more time in after school learning programs. I think westerners talking about the evil of cram schools give away their privilege. Kids need more time in extracurriculars to become well rounded adults? Many schools are dumping huge sums just into security. One school I worked at, like a quarter of staff were just security.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3482
cram schools are overwhelmingly the preserve of the rich, the upper class, or the very upwardly mobile. they're expensive as hell, especially considering most of the extra-curricular schools in language/math/science tuition will be employing young tutors who went away to ivy league colleges, etc. name brands matter and command a high premium.

it's like private after-school tuition in the west. rich and fussy parents arrange it for their struggling kids. even somewhat dim kids from good households can go far with the extra push and exams guidance.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+637|3750
If it is just a rich person thing and helps some dim kids improve their scores...the fuck are people complaining about? Are the kids really that dim if intensive cramming helps them score higher on standardized test? How else do you measure improvement? People complaining about cramming and standardized testing know the difference between a formative and summative assessment or is everyone just mouthing off?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3482
because everyone has to do it to keep up. in an incredibly competitive society with a vanishingly small number of 'elite' positions at schools/companies, even amongst the monied and well-off there is an insane crush and chokepoint. even rich kids from nice spacious apartments get miserable when they're at school for 14 hours a day, when all to look forward to in life is being crushed in yet more competitive environments. and that's the 'lucky' ones.

a lot of these kids shoulder senses of shame/guilt, family burdens. there's still such a thing as bringing 'dishonour' on your family if you drop-out of society or don't earn all the expected garlands. it's a huge amount of expectation to internalise. and all of your peers aren't really 'friends' in such an environment: they're competitors. the whole thing sounds nightmarish to be honest.

Last edited by uziq (2022-03-08 09:38:07)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+637|3750
The educated and successful enough people on 17 year old Korean video game forums probably look at our system and think we live in a nightmare.

SK has some extreme cost of living problems but low levels of crime and violence. If that is anyway tied to their basic education system vs ours, I can't criticize their system.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3482
there is low crime and violence, yeah, absolutely. that's partly because of ruthless authoritarianism in very recent memory, though. you're less inclined to be anti-social in public or to get into drunken brawls when there's military police and a ruthless state apparatus.

https://preview.redd.it/se1grpmn82c71.jpg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=174b10b8d9b47aa1da6ae986d73264844cd0a8da
"A Police officer checking a man's hair length during a nationwide crackdown on men with long hair and women wearing short skirts in Myeong-dong, Seoul, S. Korea 1970s [Colorized]"

there are forms of crime but a lot of it is de facto tolerated. people talk a lot about the efficiency of the japanese justice system, and so on, but it doesn't actually stand up to much scrutiny. the 'good crime stats' actually belie quite an unjust reality, e.g. in the japanese system, anything that goes through to official public prosecution is basically a de facto guilty judgment, guilty-unless-remarkably-proven-otherwise. similarly, cops on the street level can be bribed or encouraged to look the other way if you're from the right family/influential position. the 'low crime' stats are covering for a lot.

Last edited by uziq (2022-03-08 11:25:56)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+637|3750
I have heard Japanese police don't investigate sex crimes like they are obligated to. Whenever people point out the weird sex stuff in Japan, weebs will point to the sex crime rates as proof that nothing is wrong there even though something is rotten in the empire of Japan.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+637|3750
All work has dignity.

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2022-03-09 06:15:16)

https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3482

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I have heard Japanese police don't investigate sex crimes like they are obligated to. Whenever people point out the weird sex stuff in Japan, weebs will point to the sex crime rates as proof that nothing is wrong there even though something is rotten in the empire of Japan.
korean police too. most forms of crime, to be honest. if there is an altercation, especially domestic violence between husband and wife, the police will encourage them to solve it amicably or make recourse to family/neighbours in sorting it. almost never touches the court system. it's a serious problem here when it comes to forms of domestic and/or sexual violence. it's just sort of wilfully naive about how coercive and abusive home environments work, the police 'looking the other way'.

i've heard lots of stories about women reporting stalking and harrassing behaviour, sometimes for weeks/months, and the police kick it into the long grass. recommends they walk another route home. recommends they keep an eye on it to make sure they're not being overcautious. i think stalking legislation itself here is a very recent introduction and the culture of policing is set in its ways, such that they barely use it. very dangerous environment because the men/perpetrators know it. and a male police officer confronting a middle-aged or senior man about an embarrassing crime? with a young female victim? it's just how east asian cultures are coded. they are automatically going to have a masculine social accord and the woman will struggle to be recognised.

part of it is because the society is so patriarchal. the police will take the elder-man of the household to one side and try and resolve it as if it's a dispute between clans, to save the family household from being brought into disrepute. the police will do you a favour if you're of good standing. a lot of it works in these 'informal' ways, which makes it seem on paper like the society is totally crime-free when really the justice is still meted out in a sort of socially arbitrated, pre-modern, pre-administrative-state kind of way.

sexual violence and offences against women in general are pretty bad out here, i'd say. stalking, groping, inappropriate comments, rape and sexual violence, etc. all grossly under-reported. getting a conviction for rape in the west is hard enough. some of the cultural mores surrounding this stuff are just funny, they're so absurd and retrograde. for instance, women smoking in public is still considered 'shameful' or 'dirty' to older generations. and the way social relations work out here, the older generation are perfectly fucking entitled to tell you so. my gf smokes when she's drinking, and that basically gives older men of a certain generation free license to come up to her and tee off, saying she looks like a prostitute, etc. it's fucking wild how unfair and pre-modern the society is in some ways.

Last edited by uziq (2022-03-08 11:32:28)

DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6715|United States of America
So, obviously conservatives are all aflutter that Joe Biden is personally raising gas prices, apparently in a bid to force us to buy electric (this part isn't even a joke), but I saw one bragging today about the 20 mpg their Grand Marquis gets in comparison to that of your basic lifted pickups.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6136|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

maybe quit with this fucking gospel-of-personal-emissions when you're evidently such a flip-flopping little hypocrite?
Um, no, you're the one who keeps going on about per capita emissions, I keep pointing out its total emissions which matter.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6136|eXtreme to the maX

DesertFox- wrote:

So, obviously conservatives are all aflutter that Joe Biden is personally raising gas prices, apparently in a bid to force us to buy electric (this part isn't even a joke), but I saw one bragging today about the 20 mpg their Grand Marquis gets in comparison to that of your basic lifted pickups.
Obviously profligate emissions are stupid, what do people even use lifted pickups for besides highway rollovers?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3482

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

maybe quit with this fucking gospel-of-personal-emissions when you're evidently such a flip-flopping little hypocrite?
Um, no, you're the one who keeps going on about per capita emissions, I keep pointing out its total emissions which matter.
so why the hell are you constantly harping on me for living in a country with many coal-powered stations? i have a teensy carbon footprint, you moron. korea and australia are both gross offenders in total emissions, taken collectively. great job!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6136|eXtreme to the maX
SKs emissions are 50% higher with much lower landmass and less primary production, and SK seems to be doing nothing about cutting coal.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3482
SK and australia are both guilty of not cutting coal, lmao. they were both singled out at the last IPCC. don't be so fucking coy.

here we go again, land mass being the convenient statistic you rely upon. it's hilarious. co2/capita don't matter but the amount of flat ground you have does? hahahah

emissions are 50% higher with ... 2x the population. amazing that, isn't it! but let's talk about land mass, as if that's somehow directly a function of carbon emissions.

you really are a fucking prat.

Last edited by uziq (2022-03-08 14:29:39)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6136|eXtreme to the maX
So what is the ideal metric?

Lets cut per capita emissions by 50% and triple the population. Global warming solved!
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3482
you rely upon this sophistry all the time. it doesn't impress anyone.

like in anything, there is no one clear metric that subtends all the rest. co2/capita is a pretty good indication of personal lifestyle and consumption patterns, taken on a global ranking; total emissions are a good indication of what a society/state needs to do collectively; total land mass is a total fucking irrelevance to any discussion and you sound deranged every time you mention it; and so on.

if one wanted to play your game of hiding behind certain statistics and placing spurious emphases upon them, we could be here all day.

if total land mass is so important, and if low population is so highly valued, does that mean an inuit tribe leader could get a private jet every day to pick up their cured meat and coffee grounds, and that would be okay?

you really do behave like an obtuse thicko when it suits you.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6136|eXtreme to the maX
You need to pick a reasonable metric, per capita makes no sense when already over-populated countries get a win and countries can just boost their population to 'meet their emission targets', it makes no sense at all.

The basic problem is too many people on too little land. Whatever technological solution we find will be negated by an ever expanding population.
Besides global warming asian and african countries invariably expand until they're in starvation, its insanity.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3482
i think a reasonable conclusion, considering australia are shamefully world topping in BOTH per capita and total emissions, both 'reasonable metrics', is that you should stop being so fucking smug about passing on meat dishes and agree that your society needs to do a whole lot better.

Besides global warming asian and african countries invariably expand until they're in starvation, its insanity.
what are you talking about? starvation and famine in africa is directly linked to climate. starvation in asia has been caused several times by political tumults, less so by natural disasters or climate. overpopulation and 'breeding out of control' seldom comes into it. what ahistorical, racist claptrap.

"besides global warming ..." white european settler countries invariably pick a deserted rock in the middle of nowhere and attempt to recreate first-world suburban living standards there, it's insanity.

easy game!

Last edited by uziq (2022-03-08 15:05:46)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6136|eXtreme to the maX
Australia produces three times as much food as it consumes, that will hit our 'per capita' emissions.

I think a starting point for sustainability should be nations should be able to feed themselves, not shift their carbon emissions abroad and then point fingers like, er, Korea

With more than 51 million people, South Korea is the third most densely populated country in the world. More than 80 percent of Koreans live in urban areas and more than 50 percent live within, or in the direct vicinity of, the capital city of Seoul.

With its growing economy and limited arable land, South Korea is the eighth-largest agricultural importer in the world. In 2017, those imports totaled $25 billion, led by beef, corn, food preparations, pork, and fresh fruit.

https://www.fas.usda.gov/data/us-agricu … outh-korea

Stop importing beef you fat fucks.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3482
fat fucks? i bet korea has some of the lowest levels of obesity in the world. and australia ... where are they on this waste-metric of food overconsumption and obesity? lmao i think you know the conclusion to that one.

south korea obesity rate: 4.70% (that's lower than north korea, fyi, at 6.80%).
australia obesity rate: 29.00%

australia is in the top25 most obese countries in the world, much like its carbon emissions. out of major developed countries, only the united states, new zealand, and canada are higher. the vast majority are tiny pacific islander nations which makes australia's disastrous ranking look much better than it is. out of the world's countries, only 11 countries are less obese than korea, most notably japan. "you fat fucks".

imagine calling east asians 'fat fucks'. like of all people. a fucking white aussie.

dilbert: australia is a net exporter of food. we produce more food than we need.
dilbert: ha! korea imports food! suckers!
dilbert: i will buy a mobile phone from korea.

???

korea produces lots more things than it needs/uses too, mate. that's the very concept of 'exports'. maybe they should offset all their technology, shipyard, heavy industry, etc, emissions to the people importing it, like australians? genius.

Last edited by uziq (2022-03-08 15:48:59)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6136|eXtreme to the maX
I'm not really fat though
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6802|PNW

Doesn't Australia export an insane amount of red meat?

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