my point is we don't tip in europe and it's not a stupid grievance you have to factor into a 'travel budget'. it's unnecessary. it's you picking up the cost for underpaying employers. it's you propping up wage slavery.
i hate it when i'm not sure if i should tip or not
i also hate it when you're sitting on a tube or something (by that i mean a subway train) and an older woman gets on
there's a certain age range where it's ambiguous to automatically offer your seat, i mean i don't mind standing - i'll stand all day long
but what if you offer your seat to someone who doesn't consider themselves as being old and doesn't warrant a seat offer?
or what if you don't offer your seat and everyone's thinking you're a dick for not offering
you know what i mean?
life's hard sometimes
there's a certain age range where it's ambiguous to automatically offer your seat, i mean i don't mind standing - i'll stand all day long
but what if you offer your seat to someone who doesn't consider themselves as being old and doesn't warrant a seat offer?
or what if you don't offer your seat and everyone's thinking you're a dick for not offering
you know what i mean?
life's hard sometimes
I'd think the rule of thumb would be to offer if it looks like she's having a hard time.
As for tipping, do some reading ahead of time and simply follow the customs of where you visit. But in regions where it's expected, you not tipping a waitress because you don't want to prop up a restaurant is neither going to hurt the restaurant nor help the waitress. And if you're so financially strapped that you have to pinch pennies when you go out to eat, you should probably stay at the hotel and eat a spamwich instead.
As for tipping, do some reading ahead of time and simply follow the customs of where you visit. But in regions where it's expected, you not tipping a waitress because you don't want to prop up a restaurant is neither going to hurt the restaurant nor help the waitress. And if you're so financially strapped that you have to pinch pennies when you go out to eat, you should probably stay at the hotel and eat a spamwich instead.
It's you paying more for your meal than you have to, while paying for service whether it is good or not. Works both ways.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
my point is we don't tip in europe and it's not a stupid grievance you have to factor into a 'travel budget'. it's unnecessary. it's you picking up the cost for underpaying employers. it's you propping up wage slavery.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
did you have to tip in that restaurant that cost you $250? 15-20%? or is it included?Jay wrote:
It's you paying more for your meal than you have to, while paying for service whether it is good or not. Works both ways.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
my point is we don't tip in europe and it's not a stupid grievance you have to factor into a 'travel budget'. it's unnecessary. it's you picking up the cost for underpaying employers. it's you propping up wage slavery.
and i'd rather all my money went to the chef and hosts, i.e. the real talent. i am fine with waiters being paid an ordinary-average wage. of course the businesses' basic income has to be redistributed to pay for all of its outgoings. but that's like saying you pay a 'high' price for the food so they can pay their water-bills for the washing up afterwards. it's not really the same thing as having to consciously take out 15% of a meal price and leave it in a jar on the table. fuck waiters. you'll get paid minimum wage until you get a real job.
nahunnamednewbie13 wrote:
I'd think the rule of thumb would be to offer if it looks like she's having a hard time.
As for tipping, do some reading ahead of time and simply follow the customs of where you visit. But in regions where it's expected, you not tipping a waitress because you don't want to prop up a restaurant is neither going to hurt the restaurant nor help the waitress. And if you're so financially strapped that you have to pinch pennies when you go out to eat, you should probably stay at the hotel and eat a spamwich instead.
Waiting tables is a sales job first and foremost. Receiving a tip is akin to receiving a commission. Yes, the chef does the 'real work' but the waiter is the face of the business, performs nearly all of the customer service, is the person who gets yelled at when the chef fucks up etc. In the restaurants I worked in, the cooks made a lot less money than the front of the house staff, but they considered it a fair trade because they didn't have to deal with customers all day, and they got paid whether the restaurant was packed or empty.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
did you have to tip in that restaurant that cost you $250? 15-20%? or is it included?Jay wrote:
It's you paying more for your meal than you have to, while paying for service whether it is good or not. Works both ways.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
my point is we don't tip in europe and it's not a stupid grievance you have to factor into a 'travel budget'. it's unnecessary. it's you picking up the cost for underpaying employers. it's you propping up wage slavery.
and i'd rather all my money went to the chef and hosts, i.e. the real talent. i am fine with waiters being paid an ordinary-average wage. of course the businesses' basic income has to be redistributed to pay for all of its outgoings. but that's like saying you pay a 'high' price for the food so they can pay their water-bills for the washing up afterwards. it's not really the same thing as having to consciously take out 15% of a meal price and leave it in a jar on the table. fuck waiters. you'll get paid minimum wage until you get a real job.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Were people arguing that they don't travel to Europe because they either waste too much money on tips here or that they don't want to pay unnecessary tips over there?
chefs here get paid a lot more. in proper restaurants, anyway. why the hell would you pay a glorified robot that can read out the soup of the day and transport your dishes to you more than the chef, with decades of experience and culinary expertise? makes no sense. the chef is why you go to a restaurant; it's his house, you're there for his food, his menu, his selections, the produce of the kitchen he runs. chefs here get paid way more than the waiting staff.
People who work in sales here always get paid more than people in production. I believe it's out of whack, and quality has suffered, but I didn't make the world the way it is.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
that makes sense for a nicer restaurant, but for most mid level/chain restaurants the cooks are high school dropout robots. the servers certainly deserve more for actually having to deal with people, but not the divide it currently is.
just from my 2 summers experience at a bar/restaurant a server in wages + tips would make ~$250-350+ a night and a cook ~$150.
just from my 2 summers experience at a bar/restaurant a server in wages + tips would make ~$250-350+ a night and a cook ~$150.
Uzique The Lesser wrote:
chefs here get paid a lot more. in proper restaurants, anyway. why the hell would you pay a glorified robot that can read out the soup of the day and transport your dishes to you more than the chef, with decades of experience and culinary expertise? makes no sense. the chef is why you go to a restaurant; it's his house, you're there for his food, his menu, his selections, the produce of the kitchen he runs. chefs here get paid way more than the waiting staff.
what sort of world do you live in where being a waiter is 'sales' and being a chef is 'production'? when you go to a restaurant, YOU GO THERE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO EAT. you're already hungry; your stomach is the demand. or it's a social occasion where you've already decided to go and get something to eat. the fuck does a waiter have to push for 'sale'? the specials? oh yes, such sales work. people at restaurants sit down and choose why they like the sound/taste of. it's their preference. no sales work.Jay wrote:
People who work in sales here always get paid more than people in production. I believe it's out of whack, and quality has suffered, but I didn't make the world the way it is.
and being a chef at a (proper) restaurant is 'production'? dude it's not mcdonalds. you're not slapping two buns on a pre-cooked burger and shipping it out. proper chefs are artisans, with proper specialities. specific training and lengthy formal educations/apprenticeships. to call a chef or sous-chef a 'producer' is kind of missing the point. the chef is the talent. if the food is bad, the restaurant loses stature and customers, and it closes. having good 'sales-people' on the table is not gonna make up for shitty food. the chef and his menu is everything.
how often do you eat out?
yes, i am talking about restaurants... not diners. not a gastropub. not a cafe. not a trailer. restaurants. with chefs. kitchen staff. hierarchies. specific menus.Winston_Churchill wrote:
that makes sense for a nicer restaurant, but for most mid level/chain restaurants the cooks are high school dropout robots. the servers certainly deserve more for actually having to deal with people, but not the divide it currently is.
just from my 2 summers experience at a bar/restaurant a server in wages + tips would make ~$250-350+ a night and a cook ~$150.
i actually grew up with one of gordon ramsay's favourite restaurants literally 250m down the road from me. i've mentioned it here before.Roc18 wrote:
Uzique The Lesser wrote:
chefs here get paid a lot more. in proper restaurants, anyway. why the hell would you pay a glorified robot that can read out the soup of the day and transport your dishes to you more than the chef, with decades of experience and culinary expertise? makes no sense. the chef is why you go to a restaurant; it's his house, you're there for his food, his menu, his selections, the produce of the kitchen he runs. chefs here get paid way more than the waiting staff.
http://www.lechampignonsauvage.co.uk/
Definitely true. I've only been to one restaurant I would consider ridiculously fancy, where the chef does hold the cards when it comes to menu decisions and all matters food. The rest of them I'm sure are, like you say, dropouts or dropouts who have done it for a long time.Winston_Churchill wrote:
that makes sense for a nicer restaurant, but for most mid level/chain restaurants the cooks are high school dropout robots. the servers certainly deserve more for actually having to deal with people, but not the divide it currently is.
just from my 2 summers experience at a bar/restaurant a server in wages + tips would make ~$250-350+ a night and a cook ~$150.
thank fuck i do not live on a continent that has both 40% adult obesity and a flagrant disregard for quality.
They still exist, but oftentimes are ridiculously expensive. Not of all of us were born with silver spoons.
i had a dream the other night that i was going to open up a restaurant, and i went to this other restaurant with a great waitress and i was trying to convince her to come work at my restaurant
kinda strange
kinda strange
I'm not talking about restaurants at the tippy top end with a well known chef. I'm talking about the local joint that normal people frequent where the food is nondescript and 'normal'. People go to those place to eat, yes, but they return because the food isn't disgusting and the wait staff treats them well. Except for the top end, every restaurant is completely dependent on regular customers to stay in business, and regular customers generally have loyalty to a particular waiter that they've dealt with before, that they know will treat them respectfully, and can anticipate their order the moment they walk in the door.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
what sort of world do you live in where being a waiter is 'sales' and being a chef is 'production'? when you go to a restaurant, YOU GO THERE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO EAT. you're already hungry; your stomach is the demand. or it's a social occasion where you've already decided to go and get something to eat. the fuck does a waiter have to push for 'sale'? the specials? oh yes, such sales work. people at restaurants sit down and choose why they like the sound/taste of. it's their preference. no sales work.Jay wrote:
People who work in sales here always get paid more than people in production. I believe it's out of whack, and quality has suffered, but I didn't make the world the way it is.
and being a chef at a (proper) restaurant is 'production'? dude it's not mcdonalds. you're not slapping two buns on a pre-cooked burger and shipping it out. proper chefs are artisans, with proper specialities. specific training and lengthy formal educations/apprenticeships. to call a chef or sous-chef a 'producer' is kind of missing the point. the chef is the talent. if the food is bad, the restaurant loses stature and customers, and it closes. having good 'sales-people' on the table is not gonna make up for shitty food. the chef and his menu is everything.
how often do you eat out?
If you walked into a nondescript restaurant and saw the wait staff lounging around, taking a long time to fetch drinks, or gave an attitude to the customers, would you return, let alone even walk in? No, of course not. Any idiot can flip a burger or make fish and chips or whatever, but people pick a restaurant of the commodified variety because of service and ambiance.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
a good 2-course meal is like £20, £25 if you want a glass of wine. please. 'silver spoon'. not all of us were born with self-respect for our diets, but i guess some of us will die of colon cancer.DesertFox- wrote:
They still exist, but oftentimes are ridiculously expensive. Not of all of us were born with silver spoons.
Watching a family procession into Old Country Buffet is like watching cattle herded into the slaughterhouse. Only the people are heavier than the cows they eat.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
thank fuck i do not live on a continent that has both 40% adult obesity and a flagrant disregard for quality.
e: And low ever more shrilly.
maybe it's semantic. over here if you go to a casual place to get lunch or whilst out in town, somewhere for "burger" or "fish and chips", we'd probably call that a bar or a cafe or agastropub or something. a 'restaurant' is normally somewhere fancy where you get dressed up and go and sit down as a social occasion, more so than a casual stroll/get a bite whilst out. i can only think of 2 restaurants that would even serve "fish and chips", and they are proper seafood places where the chef is definitely the one driving the sports-car, and where that variation on the dish will cost definite 'restaurant' prices. we call casual food-places normally something other than 'restaurant'.Jay wrote:
I'm not talking about restaurants at the tippy top end with a well known chef. I'm talking about the local joint that normal people frequent where the food is nondescript and 'normal'. People go to those place to eat, yes, but they return because the food isn't disgusting and the wait staff treats them well. Except for the top end, every restaurant is completely dependent on regular customers to stay in business, and regular customers generally have loyalty to a particular waiter that they've dealt with before, that they know will treat them respectfully, and can anticipate their order the moment they walk in the door.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
what sort of world do you live in where being a waiter is 'sales' and being a chef is 'production'? when you go to a restaurant, YOU GO THERE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO EAT. you're already hungry; your stomach is the demand. or it's a social occasion where you've already decided to go and get something to eat. the fuck does a waiter have to push for 'sale'? the specials? oh yes, such sales work. people at restaurants sit down and choose why they like the sound/taste of. it's their preference. no sales work.Jay wrote:
People who work in sales here always get paid more than people in production. I believe it's out of whack, and quality has suffered, but I didn't make the world the way it is.
and being a chef at a (proper) restaurant is 'production'? dude it's not mcdonalds. you're not slapping two buns on a pre-cooked burger and shipping it out. proper chefs are artisans, with proper specialities. specific training and lengthy formal educations/apprenticeships. to call a chef or sous-chef a 'producer' is kind of missing the point. the chef is the talent. if the food is bad, the restaurant loses stature and customers, and it closes. having good 'sales-people' on the table is not gonna make up for shitty food. the chef and his menu is everything.
how often do you eat out?
If you walked into a nondescript restaurant and saw the wait staff lounging around, taking a long time to fetch drinks, or gave an attitude to the customers, would you return, let alone even walk in? No, of course not. Any idiot can flip a burger or make fish and chips or whatever, but people pick a restaurant of the commodified variety because of service and ambiance.
Everything is a restaurant here, from McDonald's all the way up to Aquavit and beyond. Just like everything is school from pre-kindergarten all the way through phd programs.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
maybe it's semantic. over here if you go to a casual place to get lunch or whilst out in town, somewhere for "burger" or "fish and chips", we'd probably call that a bar or a cafe or agastropub or something. a 'restaurant' is normally somewhere fancy where you get dressed up and go and sit down as a social occasion, more so than a casual stroll/get a bite whilst out. i can only think of 2 restaurants that would even serve "fish and chips", and they are proper seafood places where the chef is definitely the one driving the sports-car, and where that variation on the dish will cost definite 'restaurant' prices. we call casual food-places normally something other than 'restaurant'.Jay wrote:
I'm not talking about restaurants at the tippy top end with a well known chef. I'm talking about the local joint that normal people frequent where the food is nondescript and 'normal'. People go to those place to eat, yes, but they return because the food isn't disgusting and the wait staff treats them well. Except for the top end, every restaurant is completely dependent on regular customers to stay in business, and regular customers generally have loyalty to a particular waiter that they've dealt with before, that they know will treat them respectfully, and can anticipate their order the moment they walk in the door.Uzique The Lesser wrote:
what sort of world do you live in where being a waiter is 'sales' and being a chef is 'production'? when you go to a restaurant, YOU GO THERE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO EAT. you're already hungry; your stomach is the demand. or it's a social occasion where you've already decided to go and get something to eat. the fuck does a waiter have to push for 'sale'? the specials? oh yes, such sales work. people at restaurants sit down and choose why they like the sound/taste of. it's their preference. no sales work.
and being a chef at a (proper) restaurant is 'production'? dude it's not mcdonalds. you're not slapping two buns on a pre-cooked burger and shipping it out. proper chefs are artisans, with proper specialities. specific training and lengthy formal educations/apprenticeships. to call a chef or sous-chef a 'producer' is kind of missing the point. the chef is the talent. if the food is bad, the restaurant loses stature and customers, and it closes. having good 'sales-people' on the table is not gonna make up for shitty food. the chef and his menu is everything.
how often do you eat out?
If you walked into a nondescript restaurant and saw the wait staff lounging around, taking a long time to fetch drinks, or gave an attitude to the customers, would you return, let alone even walk in? No, of course not. Any idiot can flip a burger or make fish and chips or whatever, but people pick a restaurant of the commodified variety because of service and ambiance.
Last edited by Jay (2013-07-11 19:36:47)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat