BVC
Member
+325|6935
So we've got our general election this Saturday.  I've already decided which party & candidate I'm voting for, but there is also a referendum on possibly changing our voting system.

I would like D&ST's input, as chances are you've experienced voting systems on this list which I haven't.  I don't mind if this becomes more of a general "which system is better" discussion.

We currently operate under s system called MMP (Mixed Member Proportional), having changed from a system called FPP (First Past the Post) in 1996 (first MMP election that year, last FPP one in 1993)

The choices are: (system descriptions below)
Do you want to keep MMP?  Yes/No.
If not, which system would you prefer?  FPP, STV, SM, PV.

If over 50% opt to keep MMP, it stays but will be reviewed and maybe tweaked.  If under 50% vote to keep MMP, there might be another referendum on the voting system in 2014.

MMP (Mixed Member Proportional) - 120 seats; 70 local electorates, 50 party seats.  Two votes, one for a local candidate, one for a party.  The party vote determines a party's share of all seats in parliament.  40% of the party vote means a party gets 40% of the seats.  If a party is entitled to 48 seats, but wins only 30 electorate seats, they get an additional 18 party list seats.  There are exceptions (overhangs), but only in rare cases where a party gets more electorate seats than party seats.  A party needs at least 5% of the party vote to get any party seats, unless they also win an electorate seat.  Proportional.  Coalition governments are typical, but its not impossible to get a single-party government, and this year that will probably happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post (BBcode dont like this URL)
FPP (First Past the Post - 120 seats.  One vote, for a local candidate, in an electorate.  The party with over half of the electorate seats forms the government.  Not proportional, two-horse race.  Usually results in single-party governments, though in theory coalitions are possible.  In the very last FPP election winning party had the majority of seats with only 35% of the total vote, and in that same election another party got 18% but only 2 out of 99 seats (In 1993 we had 99 seats not 120).  Typically a two-horse race.

SM (Supplementary Member) - 120 seats; 90 local electorates, 30 party list seats.  Two votes, one for electorate, one for the party.  90 electorates, 30 party seats.  Unlike MMP, the party vote only determines the share of the party seats.  There is a proportional component, but results are similar to FPP, and it usually produces single-party governments.

PV (Preferential Voting) - 120 local electorate seats.  One vote, one MP elected per electorate.  You rank electorate candidates in order of preference.  Candidates must reach over 50% of the vote to be elected, lowest-scoring MPs are eliminated and their votes transferred to other candidates until a majority is reached.  Not very proportional, minor parties might geat a seat or two, but would typically result in single-party governments.

STV (Single Transferrable Vote) - 120 electorate seats, but only 24-30 electorates, each with 3-7 MPs.  Rank candidates in order of preference, "wasted" votes transferred as per PV above, but lower thresholds due to multiple candidates per electorate.  Roughly proportional.  Like MMP, coalition governments are usually necessary.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7014|Noizyland

STV and FPP are shit, they've been proven to be shit. STV is over-complicated and FPP is undemocratic and unfair, the only reason people like it is because it delivers a majority Government so legislation can pass easily. PV has had many many critics over the years and is the reason many public figures are elected without the majority actually electing them, (Wellington's current mayor Celia Wade-Brown won despite not receiving the majority of first preference votes.) SM is an okay system, basically being MMP but cuts down on list MPs, (which is good I think,) but really if you're going to opt for it there's really no reason to switch from MMP.

How I will be voting:

Keep MMP or not?: Keep MMP.

Alternative if system were to be changed?: SM.

Thing is if the referendum decides to keep MMP there is going to be an inquiry into it to see if it can be altered to make it better. MMP is better than 3/4 of the other options and SM is too similar to bother changing to it. Also I'd rather have two votes than one, letting me have a role in electing  both electorate and list MPs instead of letting list MPs be decided from electorate votes.

Now you help me decide who to vote for because at this stage I'm dangerously close to voting for Winston fucking Peters.
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BVC
Member
+325|6935
I've pretty much made up my mind to vote MMP already, was more curious to know what people think.  Not sure about my second, but SM is pretty much FPP wearing a dress.  I will probably go STV for my alt as its the most proportional.

I'm giving my party vote to the Greens.  Why?  The skynet/S92A laws were passed "under urgency" while the public was distracted by the earthquake.  Fuck them for using our plight as cover for laws which were already rejected.  The Greens, Chris Carter and Hone Harawera were the only ones to vote against it, all the others (INCLUDING Labour...) voted for it.  Chris Carter is an independant and retiring, Hone is too racist for my liking, so that leaves the Greens.  The fact that they're the only party which actually seems to know anything about IT also goes in their favour.

National also sacked a democratically elected regional council (eCan) to appease a few farmers, and are behind the same food laws being pushed here that have already seen armed raids against food markets in the US.  I don't give my vote to corrupt arseholes who will sell out our country.

Electorate-wise, probably my Labour candidate.  Yes I'm not voting for them because of the DL laws, but at least they have been battling over the eCan thing.
Chardee MacDennis
Green Man
+130|4793|Always Sunny in Philadelphia
rudd
What is your Spaghetti Policy Here?

What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5597|London, England
shouldn't this be in the aussie politics thread?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7014|Noizyland

I'm entertaining voting Green but I see them as too obstructionist in regard to infrastructure and other projects - plus they come up with retarded policies from time to time. Granted I'm more likely to vote for them now that Sue Bradford is gone. I'm also entertaining voting Labour but I don't think they're in a state to lead at the moment, your point about S92A is proof. Also I think Goff's a bit of a pussy and don't see him showing any real qualities as a leader. I dislike National for many reasons but right now it's their stance on asset sales. I'd never vote ACT, Mana is just Hone's ego and the Maori Party wouldn't represent me. I voted United Future last time not that it amounted to anything. My reasons were that I knew National would win but would need a coalition and knew they'd work with Dunne who'd hopefully ensure the Government wouldn't leap to the right. Dunne has been a non-entity this entire term so fuck him and United Future who I never liked anyway. That leaves who? Alliance is still around but fuck knows why and I can't stand Conservative and don't agree with them anyway.

And then there's Peters and NZ First. No matter what Key says I reckon in a pinch he'd work with NZ First and they're against asset sales. Also like him or not Peters is an excellent politician even if he is a scumbag, and is at very least entertaining. But he's too in bed with Grey Power and the older folk, he'd do anything for the Boomers and would quite happily fuck over younger generations to do it.

Every election I feel morally obligated to void my ballot.

I'm still enrolled in the Hutt South electorate even though I moved and the MP there is Trevor Mallard. I'm quite happy having him continue because he's not above physically attacking somone if they piss him off.
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BVC
Member
+325|6935

Ty wrote:

I'm entertaining voting Green but I see them as too obstructionist in regard to infrastructure and other projects - plus they come up with retarded policies from time to time. Granted I'm more likely to vote for them now that Sue Bradford is gone. I'm also entertaining voting Labour but I don't think they're in a state to lead at the moment, your point about S92A is proof. Also I think Goff's a bit of a pussy and don't see him showing any real qualities as a leader. I dislike National for many reasons but right now it's their stance on asset sales. I'd never vote ACT, Mana is just Hone's ego and the Maori Party wouldn't represent me. I voted United Future last time not that it amounted to anything. My reasons were that I knew National would win but would need a coalition and knew they'd work with Dunne who'd hopefully ensure the Government wouldn't leap to the right. Dunne has been a non-entity this entire term so fuck him and United Future who I never liked anyway. That leaves who? Alliance is still around but fuck knows why and I can't stand Conservative and don't agree with them anyway.

And then there's Peters and NZ First. No matter what Key says I reckon in a pinch he'd work with NZ First and they're against asset sales. Also like him or not Peters is an excellent politician even if he is a scumbag, and is at very least entertaining. But he's too in bed with Grey Power and the older folk, he'd do anything for the Boomers and would quite happily fuck over younger generations to do it.

Every election I feel morally obligated to void my ballot.

I'm still enrolled in the Hutt South electorate even though I moved and the MP there is Trevor Mallard. I'm quite happy having him continue because he's not above physically attacking somone if they piss him off.
Debating is the only time Goff doesn't come across as a bit of a softcock, I doubt he will ever be PM.  TBH I think that if Aunty Helen got sick of the UN, she would stand more of a chance than him, at the very least she'd probably help Labour claw back a few seats.  I pretty much agree on the minor parties, but don't think a lot about UNF as they're too much like the Conservatives.  JK will work with anyone.  If it came down to it I think he'd even work with Labour!  Whether they'd with with him and the Nats is another question however.

Jay wrote:

shouldn't this be in the aussie politics thread?
Nah, we let our overseas colonies have their own threads
BVC
Member
+325|6935
My electorate is a deat heat;- 10493 votes vs 10493 votes, with 100% counted (minus special votes)

1993, 50 seat government vs. 49 seat opposition.

Under the old system, my one vote would quite literally hold the balance of power.

I know you guys (Ty doesnt count ) don't have a say, but is D&ST comfortable with the fact that one of it's members voting prefences could have quite literally decided the foreign policy of an entire nation?

No, really, my vote does count.  Are you really comfortable with the thought of me deciding whether we send people overseas to die?  Just look at my username.  One grotty internet cunt, with the potential to influence a war, or international trade, through a frivilous trip to the local library (most convenient voting place).  Not cool.

Um, ah, yeah, nah, happy with my choice of preferred voting system, which doesnt allow me to destroy lives so easily.

Last edited by Pubic (2011-11-26 05:24:52)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6650|'Murka

Pubic wrote:

My electorate is a deat heat;- 10493 votes vs 10493 votes, with 100% counted (minus special votes)

1993, 50 seat government vs. 49 seat opposition.

Under the old system, my one vote would quite literally hold the balance of power.

I know you guys (Ty doesnt count ) don't have a say, but is D&ST comfortable with the fact that one of it's members voting prefences could have quite literally decided the foreign policy of an entire nation?

No, really, my vote does count.  Are you really comfortable with the thought of me deciding whether we send people overseas to die?  Just look at my username.  One grotty internet cunt, with the potential to influence a war, or international trade, through a frivilous trip to the local library (most convenient voting place).  Not cool.

Um, ah, yeah, nah, happy with my choice of preferred voting system, which doesnt allow me to destroy lives so easily.
YOU wouldn't be influencing anything. The person/party your vote (as well as the votes of thousands/millions of others) put into office would be. And they may or may not do what you would want them to in a given situation, based on what they know that you don't.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7014|Noizyland

Kind of incredible that Christchurch Central is tied. Special votes tend to favour the left so Burns will probably come out on top - especially because the electorate is a Labour stronghold. Interesting though. I think Mallard won my electorate by a comfortable margin again, ho hum.

Pretty predictable election. A shame that people gave National such huge support but I suppose that's a given when they're the only strong right party while the left has Labour, the Greens and even NZ First now. Similar kind of thing with the last Government though, the opposition hit it's weakest point in its second term, (when Bill English was leader,) clawed back in the next one, (under Don Brash,) and pulled ahead the one after that, (Key.) It'll probably go the same way although I'm not sure if Labour will go for the leadership changes although it looks like they've finally got a few options at least.
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