Niggaz wit ottitude?
Last edited by Doctor Strangelove (2011-11-27 17:31:08)
Not quite right, the NWO runs the world for the benefit of Wall Street and the Federal Reserve.The NWO controls Wall Street and the Federal Reserve.
A subtle but important distinction.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
correctJenspm wrote:
I'm a student with an iPad, so I guess my point is invalid anyway...
What is your Spaghetti Policy Here?
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
It's honestly the most ridiculous argument in the entire debate.Chardee MacDennis wrote:
correctJenspm wrote:
I'm a student with an iPad, so I guess my point is invalid anyway...
right so do you support the occupy idiots or not?Jenspm wrote:
It's honestly the most ridiculous argument in the entire debate.Chardee MacDennis wrote:
correctJenspm wrote:
I'm a student with an iPad, so I guess my point is invalid anyway...
What is your Spaghetti Policy Here?
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
"support the occupy idiots" is a very, uhh, sweeping way of phrasing it.Chardee MacDennis wrote:
right so do you support the occupy idiots or not?Jenspm wrote:
It's honestly the most ridiculous argument in the entire debate.Chardee MacDennis wrote:
correct
I do agree that our current system is inherently flawed, that it supports the elites of society, and that it is supported by elites. I think people in general are therefore too hung up on this idea that "capitalism is the only way", ignoring any sort of alternative.
I also think its critics are wrong in asking for demands, only so they can refute it with concepts from our current (capitalist) framework (see cybarg's microeconomics-101 arguments in every single post), which is actually the framework some of the protesters want changed/removed.
I support the anger and the frustration. They may be disorganised, most of them are probably doing it to be cool and alternative, but at least they represent a voice of resentment.
current system? name one system where there are not rich and poor?
What is your Spaghetti Policy Here?
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
Germany - The disparity between rich and poor is far less extreme, and yet they are succesful under a socialist govt.
The incredible personal greed of some people is more a disorder than something which should be lauded.
The incredible personal greed of some people is more a disorder than something which should be lauded.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-11-28 04:31:07)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
that did not answer my question
Last edited by Chardee MacDennis (2011-11-28 04:32:57)
What is your Spaghetti Policy Here?
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
What A Long Strange Trip It's Been
Communism? The abolishment of class structure?Chardee MacDennis wrote:
current system? name one system where there are not rich and poor?
It's a utopia, sure, but there's no reason to be scared of utopias. It gives us something to look towards, work for. Else we're just stuck in the current situation where everyone thinks that "meh, life's unfair, rich/poor, exploitation, capitalism are destined upon us, let's just try to keep the boat afloat and do as best we can."
I realise I sound v. Marxian here (and there's nothing wrong with that, really, it's just a shame status-quo-hugging elites have attached so many negative connotations to it), but I'm not encouraging the implementation of communism right now, I'm only arguing that attitudes like that are, imo, extremely unhealthy.
What if we said the same about slavery? 'Name a system where people aren't exploited'
There's no reason to be scared of utopias? Jesus Christ...Jenspm wrote:
Communism? The abolishment of class structure?Chardee MacDennis wrote:
current system? name one system where there are not rich and poor?
It's a utopia, sure, but there's no reason to be scared of utopias. It gives us something to look towards, work for. Else we're just stuck in the current situation where everyone thinks that "meh, life's unfair, rich/poor, exploitation, capitalism are destined upon us, let's just try to keep the boat afloat and do as best we can."
I realise I sound v. Marxian here (and there's nothing wrong with that, really, it's just a shame status-quo-hugging elites have attached so many negative connotations to it), but I'm not encouraging the implementation of communism right now, I'm only arguing that attitudes like that are, imo, extremely unhealthy.
What if we said the same about slavery? 'Name a system where people aren't exploited'
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Communism. Does. Not. Work. It's not The Man who oppresses you, it's not corporate greed, it's every single one of us. We are the ones who created this situation. How do you think corporations get big? Do you think Wall-mart just happened overnight? People are lazy, greedy and cheap and only big corporations can supply us with all the luxury we so desperately crave. And about communism, first of all, don't confuse it with socialism, and don't confuse socialism with welfare (i.e. socialized medicine) that exists in mixed-market economies like Germany (hint to somebody above). Secondly, if you have problems with how the government handles corporations, you advocate a system that essentially gives all the power to the government. You want to see a fuck up, let the government run all the industries and watch as everybody else has computers and you proudly run around with your wood plated FM radio.Jenspm wrote:
Communism? The abolishment of class structure?Chardee MacDennis wrote:
current system? name one system where there are not rich and poor?
It's a utopia, sure, but there's no reason to be scared of utopias. It gives us something to look towards, work for. Else we're just stuck in the current situation where everyone thinks that "meh, life's unfair, rich/poor, exploitation, capitalism are destined upon us, let's just try to keep the boat afloat and do as best we can."
I realise I sound v. Marxian here (and there's nothing wrong with that, really, it's just a shame status-quo-hugging elites have attached so many negative connotations to it), but I'm not encouraging the implementation of communism right now, I'm only arguing that attitudes like that are, imo, extremely unhealthy.
What if we said the same about slavery? 'Name a system where people aren't exploited'
What? Socialism is simply the rationalized version of communism. Communism doesn't work because the producers are shackled and expected to do a disproportionate amount of work for and equal share of the proceeds. No one with any talent is willing to work under a system like that. All Socialism does is allow them a bigger share of the pie so they remain motivated. That's it. What do you think 'socialized' health care, education etc are? The ideal for those is a communistic sharing of goods regardless of individual income.BALTINS wrote:
Communism. Does. Not. Work. It's not The Man who oppresses you, it's not corporate greed, it's every single one of us. We are the ones who created this situation. How do you think corporations get big? Do you think Wall-mart just happened overnight? People are lazy, greedy and cheap and only big corporations can supply us with all the luxury we so desperately crave. And about communism, first of all, don't confuse it with socialism, and don't confuse socialism with welfare (i.e. socialized medicine) that exists in mixed-market economies like Germany (hint to somebody above). Secondly, if you have problems with how the government handles corporations, you advocate a system that essentially gives all the power to the government. You want to see a fuck up, let the government run all the industries and watch as everybody else has computers and you proudly run around with your wood plated FM radio.Jenspm wrote:
Communism? The abolishment of class structure?Chardee MacDennis wrote:
current system? name one system where there are not rich and poor?
It's a utopia, sure, but there's no reason to be scared of utopias. It gives us something to look towards, work for. Else we're just stuck in the current situation where everyone thinks that "meh, life's unfair, rich/poor, exploitation, capitalism are destined upon us, let's just try to keep the boat afloat and do as best we can."
I realise I sound v. Marxian here (and there's nothing wrong with that, really, it's just a shame status-quo-hugging elites have attached so many negative connotations to it), but I'm not encouraging the implementation of communism right now, I'm only arguing that attitudes like that are, imo, extremely unhealthy.
What if we said the same about slavery? 'Name a system where people aren't exploited'
The whole 'socialism isn't communism' bullshit is just political cover for socialism's advocates who know people will become apoplectic if you advocate communism.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
For communism, socialism is a transitionary system. But I don't get what you're trying to say. What I meant is that socialized medicine doesn't equal to the whole country being socialist. And I'm not advocating socialism, since everyday I see the remains of a socialist nation.Jay wrote:
What? Socialism is simply the rationalized version of communism. Communism doesn't work because the producers are shackled and expected to do a disproportionate amount of work for and equal share of the proceeds. No one with any talent is willing to work under a system like that. All Socialism does is allow them a bigger share of the pie so they remain motivated. That's it. What do you think 'socialized' health care, education etc are? The ideal for those is a communistic sharing of goods regardless of individual income.BALTINS wrote:
Communism. Does. Not. Work. It's not The Man who oppresses you, it's not corporate greed, it's every single one of us. We are the ones who created this situation. How do you think corporations get big? Do you think Wall-mart just happened overnight? People are lazy, greedy and cheap and only big corporations can supply us with all the luxury we so desperately crave. And about communism, first of all, don't confuse it with socialism, and don't confuse socialism with welfare (i.e. socialized medicine) that exists in mixed-market economies like Germany (hint to somebody above). Secondly, if you have problems with how the government handles corporations, you advocate a system that essentially gives all the power to the government. You want to see a fuck up, let the government run all the industries and watch as everybody else has computers and you proudly run around with your wood plated FM radio.Jenspm wrote:
Communism? The abolishment of class structure?
It's a utopia, sure, but there's no reason to be scared of utopias. It gives us something to look towards, work for. Else we're just stuck in the current situation where everyone thinks that "meh, life's unfair, rich/poor, exploitation, capitalism are destined upon us, let's just try to keep the boat afloat and do as best we can."
I realise I sound v. Marxian here (and there's nothing wrong with that, really, it's just a shame status-quo-hugging elites have attached so many negative connotations to it), but I'm not encouraging the implementation of communism right now, I'm only arguing that attitudes like that are, imo, extremely unhealthy.
What if we said the same about slavery? 'Name a system where people aren't exploited'
The whole 'socialism isn't communism' bullshit is just political cover for socialism's advocates who know people will become apoplectic if you advocate communism.
The same way capitalism is rational fascism.The whole 'socialism isn't communism' bullshit is just political cover for socialism's advocates who know people will become apoplectic if you advocate communism.
I am not a fan of socialism or communism but you can't oversimplify things like that.
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.Macbeth wrote:
The same way capitalism is rational fascism.The whole 'socialism isn't communism' bullshit is just political cover for socialism's advocates who know people will become apoplectic if you advocate communism.
I am not a fan of socialism or communism but you can't oversimplify things like that.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
If you're talking about nations like Norway, they have democratic socialists and their main point is welfare, they don't really care about transforming capitalism into socialism.Jay wrote:
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.Macbeth wrote:
The same way capitalism is rational fascism.The whole 'socialism isn't communism' bullshit is just political cover for socialism's advocates who know people will become apoplectic if you advocate communism.
I am not a fan of socialism or communism but you can't oversimplify things like that.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
Their "key" industries are all state owned and operated.BALTINS wrote:
If you're talking about nations like Norway, they have democratic socialists and their main point is welfare, they don't really care about transforming capitalism into socialism.Jay wrote:
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.Macbeth wrote:
The same way capitalism is rational fascism.
I am not a fan of socialism or communism but you can't oversimplify things like that.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
So are the ones in my country, but our ruling parties are centre-right. And isn't the welfare in Norway pretty much paid by for by oil, gas?Cybargs wrote:
Their "key" industries are all state owned and operated.BALTINS wrote:
If you're talking about nations like Norway, they have democratic socialists and their main point is welfare, they don't really care about transforming capitalism into socialism.Jay wrote:
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
The same was true in Nazi Germany and in Fascist Italy. The same is true in the U.S. though we don't control them directly but with a ton of regulation and money. Silly point.Cybargs wrote:
Their "key" industries are all state owned and operated.BALTINS wrote:
If you're talking about nations like Norway, they have democratic socialists and their main point is welfare, they don't really care about transforming capitalism into socialism.Jay wrote:
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
They also sit on natural resources that dwarf their population. Lucky.BALTINS wrote:
If you're talking about nations like Norway, they have democratic socialists and their main point is welfare, they don't really care about transforming capitalism into socialism.Jay wrote:
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.Macbeth wrote:
The same way capitalism is rational fascism.
I am not a fan of socialism or communism but you can't oversimplify things like that.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I don't think you fully understand what communism entails. It's not a matter of degrees as much as completely different systems. (capitalist democracies, social democracies, fascist states, communist etc.). It's not as simple as moving in one direction.Jay wrote:
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.Macbeth wrote:
The same way capitalism is rational fascism.The whole 'socialism isn't communism' bullshit is just political cover for socialism's advocates who know people will become apoplectic if you advocate communism.
I am not a fan of socialism or communism but you can't oversimplify things like that.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
In the European social democracies have they deestablished personal property? How many political parties are there? Are they not controlled by wealthy individuals? Can you still run a business for profit? Have churches been banned? Etc. There's much more to Marxism than you know or understand.
We are much less socialized than Europe and those are considered a function of our government.usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc
And then you got countries that don't, but god save you if you try to explain to average joe that your country doesn't have the money to up their welfare.Jay wrote:
They also sit on natural resources that dwarf their population. Lucky.BALTINS wrote:
If you're talking about nations like Norway, they have democratic socialists and their main point is welfare, they don't really care about transforming capitalism into socialism.Jay wrote:
What's the difference between communism and socialism? Socialism leaves the carrot provided by capitalism for the Type A's. Socialists pick what they feel is really important from communism, usually welfare for the infirm, medical care, schooling, etc. Some states and societies dip further into the communist pot than others but that's usually a matter of what they can get away with without watching their rich flee. How good nations are at fleecing their rich depends on a number of things but it usually revolves around nationalistic pride, guilt, language and cultural barriers with the rest of the world etc. Why do you think socialism is only really effective among small homogenized societies and why it's so bitterly opposed in fragmented societies like the US? Do I feel any loyalty towards someone living in Iowa? Not really.
So I may have oversimplified a bit, but the difference between communism and socialism is simply a matter of degrees.
The whole idea of "Communism doesn't work" is what I'm getting at - why are we so dogmatically stating that communism will never work? You cannot just say that without a fucking seriously well-formed argument behind it. You say "People are lazy, greedy and cheap", but many will at the same time say that people from some cultures fill that description more than others. How can you then say that laziness and greed are intrinsically a part of human nature - how can you ignore and refute any idea that this may have come about as a product of our social structure?BALTINS wrote:
Communism. Does. Not. Work. It's not The Man who oppresses you, it's not corporate greed, it's every single one of us. We are the ones who created this situation. How do you think corporations get big? Do you think Wall-mart just happened overnight? People are lazy, greedy and cheap and only big corporations can supply us with all the luxury we so desperately crave. And about communism, first of all, don't confuse it with socialism, and don't confuse socialism with welfare (i.e. socialized medicine) that exists in mixed-market economies like Germany (hint to somebody above). Secondly, if you have problems with how the government handles corporations, you advocate a system that essentially gives all the power to the government. You want to see a fuck up, let the government run all the industries and watch as everybody else has computers and you proudly run around with your wood plated FM radio.Jenspm wrote:
Communism? The abolishment of class structure?Chardee MacDennis wrote:
current system? name one system where there are not rich and poor?
It's a utopia, sure, but there's no reason to be scared of utopias. It gives us something to look towards, work for. Else we're just stuck in the current situation where everyone thinks that "meh, life's unfair, rich/poor, exploitation, capitalism are destined upon us, let's just try to keep the boat afloat and do as best we can."
I realise I sound v. Marxian here (and there's nothing wrong with that, really, it's just a shame status-quo-hugging elites have attached so many negative connotations to it), but I'm not encouraging the implementation of communism right now, I'm only arguing that attitudes like that are, imo, extremely unhealthy.
What if we said the same about slavery? 'Name a system where people aren't exploited'
I'd argue that capitalism breeds a desire for fortune (greed), and greed breeds capitalism. That doesn't mean it is human destiny or nature.
And as for socialism being communism.... lol. What Macbeth said - it isn't even close.
Last edited by Jenspm (2011-11-28 08:20:49)
We aren't ready for it, that's why it doesn't work. Maybe if we would achieve a post-scarcity society, then, but other than that, doubtful. Neither our governments are capable, or trustworthy enough to handle communism, nor are we, the people, capable of achieving it. And why, because if we we were capable, we may as well could continue living in capitalism.Jenspm wrote:
The whole idea of "Communism doesn't work" is what I'm getting at - why are we so dogmatically refuting that communism will never work? You cannot just say that without a fucking seriously well-formed argument behind it. You say "People are lazy, greedy and cheap", but many will at the same time say that people from some cultures fill that description more than others. How can you then say that laziness and greed are intrinsically a part of human nature - how can you ignore and refute any idea that this may have come about as a product of our social structure?BALTINS wrote:
Communism. Does. Not. Work. It's not The Man who oppresses you, it's not corporate greed, it's every single one of us. We are the ones who created this situation. How do you think corporations get big? Do you think Wall-mart just happened overnight? People are lazy, greedy and cheap and only big corporations can supply us with all the luxury we so desperately crave. And about communism, first of all, don't confuse it with socialism, and don't confuse socialism with welfare (i.e. socialized medicine) that exists in mixed-market economies like Germany (hint to somebody above). Secondly, if you have problems with how the government handles corporations, you advocate a system that essentially gives all the power to the government. You want to see a fuck up, let the government run all the industries and watch as everybody else has computers and you proudly run around with your wood plated FM radio.Jenspm wrote:
Communism? The abolishment of class structure?
It's a utopia, sure, but there's no reason to be scared of utopias. It gives us something to look towards, work for. Else we're just stuck in the current situation where everyone thinks that "meh, life's unfair, rich/poor, exploitation, capitalism are destined upon us, let's just try to keep the boat afloat and do as best we can."
I realise I sound v. Marxian here (and there's nothing wrong with that, really, it's just a shame status-quo-hugging elites have attached so many negative connotations to it), but I'm not encouraging the implementation of communism right now, I'm only arguing that attitudes like that are, imo, extremely unhealthy.
What if we said the same about slavery? 'Name a system where people aren't exploited'
I'd argue that capitalism breeds a desire for fortune (greed), and greed breeds capitalism. That doesn't mean it is human destiny or nature.
And as for socialism being communism.... lol. What Macbeth said - it isn't even close.