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2012-01-07 16:54:10
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5840

Maybe it's just me but it also seems a tad bit racist to say that the entire middle east needs to separate itself into different ethic groups.

"Those Muzzies need to seperate themselves into different ethnic groups BECAUSE THEY CAN'T HANDLE OUR MULTICULTURAL CIVILIZATION. WE KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR THOSE SIMPLE LITTLE PEOPLES."

Could just be me.
2012-01-07 17:33:25
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6665|'Murka

Jay wrote:

You're too funny man. You think it's worth the cost? Lol.

Cost of Afghanistan war so far:
$489,662,565,284

Cost of replacing WTC with freedom tower:
$3,000,000,000

Could've funded more than 150 replacements for the price tag of this war. No, we don't need to police the region forever, it was an isolated incident. We just need less sleepy intelligence agencies.
Because buildings were the only thing that were destroyed, right?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2012-01-07 17:37:01
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:

You're too funny man. You think it's worth the cost? Lol.

Cost of Afghanistan war so far:
$489,662,565,284

Cost of replacing WTC with freedom tower:
$3,000,000,000

Could've funded more than 150 replacements for the price tag of this war. No, we don't need to police the region forever, it was an isolated incident. We just need less sleepy intelligence agencies.
Because buildings were the only thing that were destroyed, right?
Just as many soldiers have died since the war started as died during the 9/11 attacks. You think it's worth it? Should've been in and out in a few months. The real winners here are the military contractors and Pentagon careerists.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 17:50:52
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6665|'Murka

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:

You're too funny man. You think it's worth the cost? Lol.

Cost of Afghanistan war so far:
$489,662,565,284

Cost of replacing WTC with freedom tower:
$3,000,000,000

Could've funded more than 150 replacements for the price tag of this war. No, we don't need to police the region forever, it was an isolated incident. We just need less sleepy intelligence agencies.
Because buildings were the only thing that were destroyed, right?
Just as many soldiers have died since the war started as died during the 9/11 attacks. You think it's worth it? Should've been in and out in a few months. The real winners here are the military contractors and Pentagon careerists.
It's amazing how good your decision-making is with the benefit of the perfect clarity of hindsight.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2012-01-07 17:53:27
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Because buildings were the only thing that were destroyed, right?
Just as many soldiers have died since the war started as died during the 9/11 attacks. You think it's worth it? Should've been in and out in a few months. The real winners here are the military contractors and Pentagon careerists.
It's amazing how good your decision-making is with the benefit of the perfect clarity of hindsight.
I've been saying the same thing since day 1.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 17:54:25
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6665|'Murka

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:


Just as many soldiers have died since the war started as died during the 9/11 attacks. You think it's worth it? Should've been in and out in a few months. The real winners here are the military contractors and Pentagon careerists.
It's amazing how good your decision-making is with the benefit of the perfect clarity of hindsight.
I've been saying the same thing since day 1.
Since 6 Oct 2001? I doubt it.

Since Mar 2003? Probably...like most people.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2012-01-07 17:58:12
Superior Mind
(not macbeth)
+1,755|6947
What's fucked up is that any reasonably intelligent American knew that the wars were only to the benefit of the likes of Cheney. We knew it from at least, yes, at least 2003. And yet this is what happened anyway.
x
2012-01-07 17:58:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:


It's amazing how good your decision-making is with the benefit of the perfect clarity of hindsight.
I've been saying the same thing since day 1.
Since 6 Oct 2001? I doubt it.

Since Mar 2003? Probably...like most people.
It should've remained an unconventional war. As soon as it left SOCOM and conventional ground leaders were involved it was going to devolve into Vietnam II. But hey, more combat commands means more promotions amirite?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 18:01:04
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5513|foggy bottom
af has combat commands?
Tu Stultus Es
2012-01-07 18:01:45
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

af has combat commands?
I'm not talking about the AF, they would be involved anyway. I'm talking about dickhead Army ground commanders.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 18:02:20
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6665|'Murka

That is as likely as anything. Just as likely is that we didn't have enough SOF to handle the load, so we thought we could shift some of it to the conventional forces. And instead of continuing it as an unconventional fight, the conventional forces (shockingly) tried to turn it into a conventional fight.

Then there's Iraq...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2012-01-07 18:02:32
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5513|foggy bottom
i was just making a dig at the af
Tu Stultus Es
2012-01-07 18:03:12
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5513|foggy bottom
i blame everything on rumsfeld
Tu Stultus Es
2012-01-07 18:04:27
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

i was just making a dig at the af
I wonder if their tarmac crews earn combat pay servicing aircraft in Kansas
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 18:06:16
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

i blame everything on rumsfeld
Rumsfeld sucked, but he had the right idea in Afghanistan. It was him that wanted the SF unconventional war there. Gates came in and let the Pentagon turn it into a quagmire.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 18:12:17
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6665|'Murka

Jay wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

i was just making a dig at the af
I wonder if their tarmac crews earn combat pay servicing aircraft in Kansas
We did have some dickheads putting themselves in for Bronze Stars for launching B-2s out of Missouri.

:picard:
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2012-01-07 18:34:32
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5513|foggy bottom

Jay wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

i blame everything on rumsfeld
Rumsfeld sucked, but he had the right idea in Afghanistan. It was him that wanted the SF unconventional war there. Gates came in and let the Pentagon turn it into a quagmire.
isnt that the exact opposite of what happened?  didnt gates come in 2006?  wasnt gates' emphasis on relying less on convention and more on special forces.  at least thats what i always thought.
Tu Stultus Es
2012-01-07 18:36:36
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

Jay wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

i blame everything on rumsfeld
Rumsfeld sucked, but he had the right idea in Afghanistan. It was him that wanted the SF unconventional war there. Gates came in and let the Pentagon turn it into a quagmire.
isnt that the exact opposite of what happened?  didnt gates come in 2006?  wasnt gates' emphasis on relying less on convention and more on special forces.  at least thats what i always thought.
No, Rumsfeld wanted to do everything on the cheap. It was supposed to be the 'New Army': lighter, meaner, more efficient. It's why he used minimal force in Iraq to take out Saddam, and also why our troops were completely unready for the aftermath which is why he was fired The Pentagon hated him, so they revolted, and we got the traditionalist Gates as a replacement who proceeded to advocate things like troop surges
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 18:45:20
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5513|foggy bottom
i really disagree.  gates is known for his stance on a greater use of special forces.  i mean rumsfled had the war for 5 years
Tu Stultus Es
2012-01-07 18:48:25
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England
Different perception I guess. Most of my knowledge regarding Rumsfeld and his way of thinking comes from a book by the uber-neocon Max Boot who had a lot of praise for his 'bringing of new ideas and corporate efficiency'. I hated Rumsfeld for a lot reasons, not least of which was he was a total dick when I met him in person, but I think I have to give him credit for the SF + proxy Afghan strategy.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 18:50:40
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5612|London, England
We started the war with SF troops being embedded in Northern Alliance units and calling in air support as necessary. Should've stayed that way. Have the Afghans do the bulk of the fighting, drop some bombs, and gather intel on al quaeda and OBL and take them out as opportunities allow. Would've been simple and cheap.

Last edited by Jay (2012-01-07 18:51:09)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2012-01-07 19:49:37
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6665|'Murka

eleven bravo wrote:

i really disagree.  gates is known for his stance on a greater use of special forces.  i mean rumsfled had the war for 5 years
I think this is more accurate. Gates' Pentagon fought against the troop surges.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2012-01-07 22:09:58
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6360|eXtreme to the maX

Spearhead wrote:

So is there any hope of creating an Afghan non-taliban state strong enough to withstand the influence of the Pakistanis?
No.
Fuck Israel
2012-01-08 05:00:29
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6254|...

FEOS wrote:

That is as likely as anything. Just as likely is that we didn't have enough SOF to handle the load,
That still is a problem
inane little opines
2012-01-08 07:14:46
rdx-fx
...
+955|6846

Macbeth wrote:

Maybe it's just me but it also seems a tad bit racist to say that the entire middle east needs to separate itself into different ethic groups.

"Those Muzzies need to seperate themselves into different ethnic groups BECAUSE THEY CAN'T HANDLE OUR MULTICULTURAL CIVILIZATION. WE KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR THOSE SIMPLE LITTLE PEOPLES."

Could just be me.
You've completely missed my point.

They need to be the ones to determine their direction, their borders, their politics.

There are religious and ethnic divisions within the middle east, where killing each other is the first option.
These are, often enough, the countries with artificial, Western determined borders.
(Iraq - Al Anfal chemical warfare genocide of the Kurds, for one)
Forcing those groups to live within the same borders is just asking for continuing conflict.

It isn't racist to recognize that a culture has different priorities and values.
It is racist to think that our Western values are universal, and that with enough understanding and force, "Those Muzzies" (as you put it) will come around to our values and perceptions.
Multiculturalism (in the Western sense), tolerance of homosexuality, tolerance of different religions, and the Democratic process are not values that directly translate to the middle eastern mindset.

Edit: To be fair to "Those Muzzies", they can be some of the most hospitable, generous people you'll ever meet - as long as they don't feel their religion is insulted, their pride injured, or their beliefs denigrated. Then again, if they have it in their head that it's a matter of pride, religion, or honor - some of them will resort to "dirka dirka jihad" as a first option too. The former being mostly the older adults, the latter being the younger low-income males.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-01-08 07:22:39)

 

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