BF2S Forums Geithner to discuss leveraging EU bailout fund

Dilbert_X wrote:

And the sustainability of America's capitalist agenda?

Europeans are bailing each other out, the US is borrowing from the Chinese.

GG

As I said in another thread, its funny seeing Geithner telling the Euros to stop bickering after the bitch-fest that was the debt-ceiling negotiations.

trollbert strikes once again. Guess who owns most of the US debt? that's right Americans.

Dilbert_X wrote:

So you're going to bail yourselves out?
OK....

stop trolling. you know how government and central banks work.

lowing wrote:

You dance around what I said, but you refuse to just say it. Greece's problems stem from a large govt. dependency by the Greeks. They frown on the private sector yet rejoice over big fat govt. benefits. and when those benefits can no longer be sustained, they riot.

The main problem for Greece is that its economy doesn't really produce anything. Industrialization never came, essentially. It's the same problem faced by Spain, Portugal etc. All these countries got left behind in a sense, compared to Germany and the other industrial powers of Europe, mainly due to a fundamental lack of resources. A boost in agriculture and services was supposed to compensate for that within the EU. But even if this were to be carried out in perfection - which it wasn't due to the huge corruption problem down here - it would still fail to bring the south up to par with the rest of Europe.

Now as for the government dependency, it's true that the Greeks have been selling their vote to the two major parties for 30 years now, hoping to grab a spot in the public sector - not so much for the money, as for the job security. And who can blame them... When the average worker makes about a grand a month, his only hope of getting a housing loan is a steady job... But as a result corruption in Greece is rampant. I think we rank second world wide after some african country plagued by civil war lol

Bottom line, I'm not so sure you can blame socialism for what's happening to Greece right now. The inability to create a viable economy more likely lies with unchecked capitalism and inherent regional poverty. If you look at the big picture, govt. dependency is the least of our problems.

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

And the sustainability of America's capitalist agenda?

Europeans are bailing each other out, the US is borrowing from the Chinese.

GG

As I said in another thread, its funny seeing Geithner telling the Euros to stop bickering after the bitch-fest that was the debt-ceiling negotiations.

American capitalism is just fine thank you. It is govt. interference that is fucking everything up. Starting with the CRA, then with bailouts. Our economy is self balancing if govt. would stop trying to force its socialist agenda on it.

9% unemployment says you're wrong, and thats even with all the people who have socialised govt jobs.

9% unemployment says I am right. It is govt. intrusion that caused this whole mess, and it is also the reason we are still in it.

oug wrote:

lowing wrote:

You dance around what I said, but you refuse to just say it. Greece's problems stem from a large govt. dependency by the Greeks. They frown on the private sector yet rejoice over big fat govt. benefits. and when those benefits can no longer be sustained, they riot.

The main problem for Greece is that its economy doesn't really produce anything. Industrialization never came, essentially. It's the same problem faced by Spain, Portugal etc. All these countries got left behind in a sense, compared to Germany and the other industrial powers of Europe, mainly due to a fundamental lack of resources. A boost in agriculture and services was supposed to compensate for that within the EU. But even if this were to be carried out in perfection - which it wasn't due to the huge corruption problem down here - it would still fail to bring the south up to par with the rest of Europe.

Now as for the government dependency, it's true that the Greeks have been selling their vote to the two major parties for 30 years now, hoping to grab a spot in the public sector - not so much for the money, as for the job security. And who can blame them... When the average worker makes about a grand a month, his only hope of getting a housing loan is a steady job... But as a result corruption in Greece is rampant. I think we rank second world wide after some african country plagued by civil war lol

Bottom line, I'm not so sure you can blame socialism for what's happening to Greece right now. The inability to create a viable economy more likely lies with unchecked capitalism and inherent regional poverty. If you look at the big picture, govt. dependency is the least of our problems.

good post.

Except, you keep going back to the excuse and not the problem. You would think at some point, the Greeks would start to question where in the fuck all of their benefits are coming from. Greece is fucked up, and the population is govt. dependent. The private sector is never allowed to take hold. Read the link. Your banks close at 130? really? Why would that be?

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

And the sustainability of America's capitalist agenda?

Europeans are bailing each other out, the US is borrowing from the Chinese.

GG

As I said in another thread, its funny seeing Geithner telling the Euros to stop bickering after the bitch-fest that was the debt-ceiling negotiations.

American capitalism is just fine thank you. It is govt. interference that is fucking everything up. Starting with the CRA, then with bailouts. Our economy is self balancing if govt. would stop trying to force its socialist agenda on it.

As I said, America's economic crisis is largely the governments fault where they lowered interest rates too low, banks started borrowing tons of money, and had to give out loans to jobless unqualified applicants.

oug wrote:

lowing wrote:

good post.

Except, you keep going back to the excuse and not the problem. You would think at some point, the Greeks would start to question where in the fuck all of their benefits are coming from. Greece is fucked up, and the population is govt. dependent. The private sector is never allowed to take hold. Read the link. Your banks close at 130? really? Why would that be?

It's absolutely true that govt. dependency must end. But those benefits you speak of? I never saw any of that. Unless of course you're talking about healthcare, which is something imo nobody should do without. And the private sector isn't exactly an answer because let's face it, there's not much the private sector can do in this country, there's no reason for anyone to invest. Not unless the Greek worker suddenly agrees to get paid $3 a day like the Chinese. And trust me, it's gonna take a lot more than tear gas and plastic bullets to make us bend over that far.

Reason why no one is going to invest in your economy, especially now is your sovereign debt problem and huge contraction. Yes Greece did have a pretty good economic growth.

Look at chile during the 80s, ran by a dictator in a shitty economy with little to no industrialization, they had an economic miracle through a strong private sector in the economy.

You don't necessarily need manufacturing to be an economic powerhouse. Iceland did pretty well till they fucked up their banking system. Finland's economy is flourishing quite well. I don't know much about Greece, but what is the cultural attitude to attaining a higher education? Higher skilled jobs usually = economic growth without a industrial sector, concentrating on services.

oug wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Reason why no one is going to invest in your economy, especially now is your sovereign debt problem and huge contraction. Yes Greece did have a pretty good economic growth.

Look at chile during the 80s, ran by a dictator in a shitty economy with little to no industrialization, they had an economic miracle through a strong private sector in the economy.

You don't necessarily need manufacturing to be an economic powerhouse. Iceland did pretty well till they fucked up their banking system. Finland's economy is flourishing quite well.

Pinochet did monstrosities with their country's natural wealth. They sold off their water to private companies ffs and now they have huge problems with these companies destroying the environment with dams and all kinds of shit.
Iceland is full of all kinds of natural resources. And most of their debt was private as far as I know. They were able to say fuck you we're not paying without there being any major repercussions on other economies. Finland I don't know about, but they probably got timber or whatever...

Cybargs wrote:

I don't know much about Greece, but what is the cultural attitude to attaining a higher education? Higher skilled jobs usually = economic growth without a industrial sector, concentrating on services.

Actually the problem is overqualification... Most people in their 30's today grew up with a dream of high salary positions, at some point they compromised with the security of a boring low paying public sector job, and in the last 2 years they're just happy to work as delivery boys, secretaries and waiters despite their degrees etc. At least that's in Athens, where half the population lives.

I strongly dissagree on your stance with chile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile

Privatization of water just gives out a real price of water, instead of a first come first serve basis like we do in Australia through government subsidies.

Greece sounds like their completely fucked. You guys need to leave the EU and go back to a sustainable budget in order to be competitive.

rdx-fx wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Greece sounds like their completely fucked. You guys need to leave the EU and go back to a sustainable budget in order to be competitive.

Didn't the eastern bloc countries have to jump through flaming hoops to meet some economic standards to join the EU?

Greece exempt from those standards or what?

Greece and Italy were brought into the EEC during the 70s to deter them from being communist. It was more of a political than economic move. Essentially it was in the best interest of Europe to keep the first nations of democracy from turning communist.

It's not really an issue of them being in the EEC, but the problem is them using the Euro and not having their own central bank to adjust monetary policies.

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

OK, so basically if anything goes wrong its the governments fault.

So how come the free market hasn't found a solution to government yet?

No one is saying govt. should not exist at all Dilbert. I swear to god, you argue like my wife.


and in the case of this latest economic crisis yeah, it is the govts. fault.

Actually its mostly the fault of the merchant banks.

No it is the govt.s fault that shoved legislation down the banks throat to find a way to finance people for homes they could not afford or didn't even qualify for.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complex than your simplistic 'analysis'.

Of course it is Dilbert.  My argument is govt. intervention. and yes the govt. is at fault for this crisis and for its "solutions".