Well that is great Kmar, you wanna add your little 2 cents without even knowing the context of which you wanna comment. Sounds about right for mod.Kmar wrote:
I was simply saying that people toss quotes out and simply stand by them without adding any personal commentary. I was replying to LBJ, not you. I don't even know what the hell you quoted. Nor do I care. These little exchanges with you bore me, frankly.lowing wrote:
Yet, you fail to explain what was quoted that you can dispute.
You must have missed the last sentence. Actually, you missed just about everything I said.
Sounds about right for you.
Sounds about right for you.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
No Kmar, I didn't. That is why I called you out on it. But, I see, you would rather play the old game deny and dismiss rather than explain what you can not. Thats ok.Kmar wrote:
You must have missed the last sentence. Actually, you missed just about everything I said.
Sounds about right for you.
Here I'll make up a snappy little quote right here that succinctly explains why socialism is not a failure.lowing wrote:
lol, no, they are snappy little quotes that succinctly explains why socialism is a failure. GREECE, for example, is PROOF socialism is a failure.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
It's a snappy little quote that doesn't really mean anything and can be applied to any government or civilisation in human history. Yet somehow people on the internet seem to think it is concrete proof of the failure of socialism, or some other rubbish like that.lowing wrote:
Why is that? Because somehow, a nation CAN multiply wealth by dividing it? Forget what he is, is what he said true or not?
Or is this just another example of you not caring about the information being true or not, you would rather focus on the source.
If there is one thing that he says in what was quoted that you can dispute. I would love to hear it.
"A society or civilisation is not the sum of the individuals in it, but rather the collective which strives to provide benefits for every citizen through the funding of public systems. Through this, a nation can be many times stronger than the individuals it contains. After all, you cannot run a nation by dividing it's peoples."
See how I can make a whole lot of unsupported and extremely general claims that show that socialism is a good thing?
Many "capitalist" countries have gone bankrupt/collapsed before, is that definitive proof that capitalism and free-markets don't work?
Surely if Greece is proof that socialism is a failure then that must be equally true?
Last edited by Little BaBy JESUS (2011-09-19 00:51:32)
Actually I like your reasoning, and it would be great except you left out the part where the people WANT strive to work for the collective. Kind of a necessary requirement wouldn't you say? In Greece no one wants to work for their entitlement, and in the US it is rapidly becoming the same way. Hence the very correct quotes, I cited, in that context.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Here I'll make up a snappy little quote right here that succinctly explains why socialism is not a failure.lowing wrote:
lol, no, they are snappy little quotes that succinctly explains why socialism is a failure. GREECE, for example, is PROOF socialism is a failure.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
It's a snappy little quote that doesn't really mean anything and can be applied to any government or civilisation in human history. Yet somehow people on the internet seem to think it is concrete proof of the failure of socialism, or some other rubbish like that.
If there is one thing that he says in what was quoted that you can dispute. I would love to hear it.
"A society or civilisation is not the sum of the individuals in it, but rather the collective which strives to provide benefits for every citizen through the funding of public systems. Through this, a nation can be many times stronger than the individuals it contains. After all, you cannot run a nation by dividing it's peoples."
See how I can make a whole lot of unsupported and extremely general claims that show that socialism is a good thing?
Many "capitalist" countries have gone bankrupt/collapsed before, is that definitive proof that capitalism and free-markets don't work?
Surely if Greece is proof that socialism is a failure then that must be equally true?
Oh nd look around, it isn't just Greece struggling to keep up with the demands of the entitlement of the people.
By the way, can you cite an example of a collapsed capitalist country in history. Been trying to think of one and I can not. Having a hard time digging one up on the internet as well.
Last edited by lowing (2011-09-19 01:01:48)
i get tired of lowing speaking on behalf of The United States.
he does not. some do not share any of his opinions, regardless of what he would want you to believe.
he does not. some do not share any of his opinions, regardless of what he would want you to believe.
Except that is basically just hearsay. In many countries (such as Australia for example) people are working longer hours than their parents or grandparents, and unemployment levels are lower or the same then they previously were (obviously there is natural fluctuation such as after the GFC).lowing wrote:
Actually I like your reasoning, and it would be great except you left out the part where the people WANT strive to work for the collective. Kind of a necessary requirement wouldn't you say? In Greece no one wants to work for their entitlement, and in the US it is rapidly becoming the same way. Hence the very correct quotes, I cited, in that context.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Here I'll make up a snappy little quote right here that succinctly explains why socialism is not a failure.lowing wrote:
lol, no, they are snappy little quotes that succinctly explains why socialism is a failure. GREECE, for example, is PROOF socialism is a failure.
If there is one thing that he says in what was quoted that you can dispute. I would love to hear it.
"A society or civilisation is not the sum of the individuals in it, but rather the collective which strives to provide benefits for every citizen through the funding of public systems. Through this, a nation can be many times stronger than the individuals it contains. After all, you cannot run a nation by dividing it's peoples."
See how I can make a whole lot of unsupported and extremely general claims that show that socialism is a good thing?
Many "capitalist" countries have gone bankrupt/collapsed before, is that definitive proof that capitalism and free-markets don't work?
Surely if Greece is proof that socialism is a failure then that must be equally true?
Certain governments/nations will always run unsustainable systems. It's not simply a socialism/not socialism thing, it is far more policy and cultural specific than that. It's all about striking the correct balance, and in reality there are very few nations that manage it, and Greece certainly isn't one, and hasn't been for a VERY long time.
Burnzz, honestly, I am not interested in the slightest in speaking on your behalf. and honestly, if you think I actually speak on this forum, as the ambassador to BF2S on behalf of the US. Well, you have damaged far more brain cells than you think.13urnzz wrote:
i get tired of lowing speaking on behalf of The United States.
he does not. some do not share any of his opinions, regardless of what he would want you to believe.
I did edit, more and more, socialist countries are struggling to keep up with the demands of their nanny state. Greece is but a window into things to come I am afraid. and the US, by actually trying to adopt this failing ideology of govt. dependency, is in a tailspin of its own.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Except that is basically just hearsay. In many countries (such as Australia for example) people are working longer hours than their parents or grandparents, and unemployment levels are lower or the same then they previously were (obviously there is natural fluctuation such as after the GFC).lowing wrote:
Actually I like your reasoning, and it would be great except you left out the part where the people WANT strive to work for the collective. Kind of a necessary requirement wouldn't you say? In Greece no one wants to work for their entitlement, and in the US it is rapidly becoming the same way. Hence the very correct quotes, I cited, in that context.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Here I'll make up a snappy little quote right here that succinctly explains why socialism is not a failure.
"A society or civilisation is not the sum of the individuals in it, but rather the collective which strives to provide benefits for every citizen through the funding of public systems. Through this, a nation can be many times stronger than the individuals it contains. After all, you cannot run a nation by dividing it's peoples."
See how I can make a whole lot of unsupported and extremely general claims that show that socialism is a good thing?
Many "capitalist" countries have gone bankrupt/collapsed before, is that definitive proof that capitalism and free-markets don't work?
Surely if Greece is proof that socialism is a failure then that must be equally true?
Certain governments/nations will always run unsustainable systems. It's not simply a socialism/not socialism thing, it is far more policy and cultural specific than that. It's all about striking the correct balance, and in reality there are very few nations that manage it, and Greece certainly isn't one, and hasn't been for a VERY long time.
Actually I didn't have any misconceptions, I never claimed to speak for you...You sure you are not tripping again? Ya know, admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. Didn't they teach you that the first time? Now run along and go post something cute in EE.13urnzz wrote:
it's ok, unlike you, i have some to spare. and thanks for clearing up your misconception, that you are entitled to speak for me. you are not.lowing wrote:
Burnzz, honestly, I am not interested in the slightest in speaking on your behalf. and honestly, if you think I actually speak on this forum, as the ambassador to BF2S on behalf of the US. Well, you have damaged far more brain cells than you think.
please stop talking in general terms when referring to U.S. citizens.
that is all.
Last edited by lowing (2011-09-19 01:15:54)
So why does the govt need to be involved at all?lowing wrote:
you mean the people? yeah, most people agree in a relationship that involves the buying and selling of goods and services.Dilbert_X wrote:
And the govt should step in to make sure it all happens - OK.lowing wrote:
Actually I do, ya see, I do not believe people should receive shit for nothing, including their roads, water works, power grids, defense, etc....You should work for the services provided to you, and you should pay those that provide it.
Let the free market build roads, power grids, dams etc.
Fuck Israel
Sorry, burnzz, kinda gotta speak in generalities as I do not know each US citizen personally. However, I have my opinions on the health of our country and my opinion as to why it is a failing health. If you do not like that, or feel I am not entitled to my opinions. Tough shit and I suggest you go back to EE and post in "hows your weather", or "your celebrity crush."13urnzz wrote:
please stop talking in general terms when referring to U.S. citizens.lowing wrote:
Actually I didn't have any misconceptions, I never claimed to speak for you...
that is all.
It does, for the most part, govt. pays for those services to private companies that build them. Amazing isn't it?Dilbert_X wrote:
So why does the govt need to be involved at all?lowing wrote:
you mean the people? yeah, most people agree in a relationship that involves the buying and selling of goods and services.Dilbert_X wrote:
And the govt should step in to make sure it all happens - OK.
Let the free market build roads, power grids, dams etc.
Topic kiddos.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Greeces problem has more to do with a massive budget deficit that hedged paying back its loans on growth in addition to not being able to have their own central bank, joining the euro is one of greeces biggest mistakes. America's problem had more to do with the fed lowering interests WAY too low and banks lending money to NINJA's (No income, no job or assets). This recession has more to do with the banking systems than anything else.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Except that is basically just hearsay. In many countries (such as Australia for example) people are working longer hours than their parents or grandparents, and unemployment levels are lower or the same then they previously were (obviously there is natural fluctuation such as after the GFC).lowing wrote:
Actually I like your reasoning, and it would be great except you left out the part where the people WANT strive to work for the collective. Kind of a necessary requirement wouldn't you say? In Greece no one wants to work for their entitlement, and in the US it is rapidly becoming the same way. Hence the very correct quotes, I cited, in that context.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Here I'll make up a snappy little quote right here that succinctly explains why socialism is not a failure.
"A society or civilisation is not the sum of the individuals in it, but rather the collective which strives to provide benefits for every citizen through the funding of public systems. Through this, a nation can be many times stronger than the individuals it contains. After all, you cannot run a nation by dividing it's peoples."
See how I can make a whole lot of unsupported and extremely general claims that show that socialism is a good thing?
Many "capitalist" countries have gone bankrupt/collapsed before, is that definitive proof that capitalism and free-markets don't work?
Surely if Greece is proof that socialism is a failure then that must be equally true?
Certain governments/nations will always run unsustainable systems. It's not simply a socialism/not socialism thing, it is far more policy and cultural specific than that. It's all about striking the correct balance, and in reality there are very few nations that manage it, and Greece certainly isn't one, and hasn't been for a VERY long time.
You are correct, their budget for entitlement is quite massive, and when the people expect and demand even more as opposed to cuts in that entitlement........wellllllllllll. Plenty of articles that back up the conversation I had while in Greece regarding the entitled and the lazy in Greece.Cybargs wrote:
Greeces problem has more to do with a massive budget deficit that hedged paying back its loans on growth in addition to not being able to have their own central bank, joining the euro is one of greeces biggest mistakes. America's problem had more to do with the fed lowering interests WAY too low and banks lending money to NINJA's (No income, no job or assets). This recession has more to do with the banking systems than anything else.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Except that is basically just hearsay. In many countries (such as Australia for example) people are working longer hours than their parents or grandparents, and unemployment levels are lower or the same then they previously were (obviously there is natural fluctuation such as after the GFC).lowing wrote:
Actually I like your reasoning, and it would be great except you left out the part where the people WANT strive to work for the collective. Kind of a necessary requirement wouldn't you say? In Greece no one wants to work for their entitlement, and in the US it is rapidly becoming the same way. Hence the very correct quotes, I cited, in that context.
Certain governments/nations will always run unsustainable systems. It's not simply a socialism/not socialism thing, it is far more policy and cultural specific than that. It's all about striking the correct balance, and in reality there are very few nations that manage it, and Greece certainly isn't one, and hasn't been for a VERY long time.
True, Greece's immediate problems are their deficit and the euro, but their problems of unsustainable governance go back much, much further.Cybargs wrote:
Greeces problem has more to do with a massive budget deficit that hedged paying back its loans on growth in addition to not being able to have their own central bank, joining the euro is one of greeces biggest mistakes. America's problem had more to do with the fed lowering interests WAY too low and banks lending money to NINJA's (No income, no job or assets). This recession has more to do with the banking systems than anything else.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Except that is basically just hearsay. In many countries (such as Australia for example) people are working longer hours than their parents or grandparents, and unemployment levels are lower or the same then they previously were (obviously there is natural fluctuation such as after the GFC).lowing wrote:
Actually I like your reasoning, and it would be great except you left out the part where the people WANT strive to work for the collective. Kind of a necessary requirement wouldn't you say? In Greece no one wants to work for their entitlement, and in the US it is rapidly becoming the same way. Hence the very correct quotes, I cited, in that context.
Certain governments/nations will always run unsustainable systems. It's not simply a socialism/not socialism thing, it is far more policy and cultural specific than that. It's all about striking the correct balance, and in reality there are very few nations that manage it, and Greece certainly isn't one, and hasn't been for a VERY long time.
Last edited by Little BaBy JESUS (2011-09-19 02:44:31)
Wasn't Greece a huge dictatorship post-WW2 and during the cold war? It's hard to cut down on already established government pension funds and cutting healthcare when so many of your citizens are already reliant on those systems.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Greece's immediate problems are their deficit and the euro, but their problems of unsustainable governance go back much, much further.Cybargs wrote:
Greeces problem has more to do with a massive budget deficit that hedged paying back its loans on growth in addition to not being able to have their own central bank, joining the euro is one of greeces biggest mistakes. America's problem had more to do with the fed lowering interests WAY too low and banks lending money to NINJA's (No income, no job or assets). This recession has more to do with the banking systems than anything else.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Except that is basically just hearsay. In many countries (such as Australia for example) people are working longer hours than their parents or grandparents, and unemployment levels are lower or the same then they previously were (obviously there is natural fluctuation such as after the GFC).
Certain governments/nations will always run unsustainable systems. It's not simply a socialism/not socialism thing, it is far more policy and cultural specific than that. It's all about striking the correct balance, and in reality there are very few nations that manage it, and Greece certainly isn't one, and hasn't been for a VERY long time.
Last edited by Cybargs (2011-09-19 02:46:48)
I couldn't tell ya without looking it up.Cybargs wrote:
Wasn't Greece a huge dictatorship post-WW2 and during the cold war? It's hard to cut down on already established government pension funds and cutting healthcare when so many of your citizens are already reliant on those systems.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Greece's immediate problems are their deficit and the euro, but their problems of unsustainable governance go back much, much further.Cybargs wrote:
Greeces problem has more to do with a massive budget deficit that hedged paying back its loans on growth in addition to not being able to have their own central bank, joining the euro is one of greeces biggest mistakes. America's problem had more to do with the fed lowering interests WAY too low and banks lending money to NINJA's (No income, no job or assets). This recession has more to do with the banking systems than anything else.
Here are a few of the things I was referring to. After my conversation I wanted to check into what he said.
http://www.wstreet.com/investing/stocks … _next.html
but then there is this, a rebuttal of sorts. http://www.marxist.com/myth-of-lazy-greek-workers.htm
Only thing is, to me, this is explaining the failure of Europe's socialism as well as that of Greece.
While that may be true, that doesn't make the systems sustainable. The Greek government have been renowned for corruption and inefficiency and their debt has been over 100% of GDP for a decade now. They have also had relatively high unemployment and an economy fundamentally based on the public and tourism sectors so any crash was going to hit them hard.Cybargs wrote:
Wasn't Greece a huge dictatorship post-WW2 and during the cold war? It's hard to cut down on already established government pension funds and cutting healthcare when so many of your citizens are already reliant on those systems.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Greece's immediate problems are their deficit and the euro, but their problems of unsustainable governance go back much, much further.Cybargs wrote:
Greeces problem has more to do with a massive budget deficit that hedged paying back its loans on growth in addition to not being able to have their own central bank, joining the euro is one of greeces biggest mistakes. America's problem had more to do with the fed lowering interests WAY too low and banks lending money to NINJA's (No income, no job or assets). This recession has more to do with the banking systems than anything else.
That said, I can't say I'm exactly an expert of the Greek economy so I should probably stop trying to debate it .
You dance around what I said, but you refuse to just say it. Greece's problems stem from a large govt. dependency by the Greeks. They frown on the private sector yet rejoice over big fat govt. benefits. and when those benefits can no longer be sustained, they riot.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
While that may be true, that doesn't make the systems sustainable. The Greek government have been renowned for corruption and inefficiency and their debt has been over 100% of GDP for a decade now. They have also had relatively high unemployment and an economy fundamentally based on the public and tourism sectors so any crash was going to hit them hard.Cybargs wrote:
Wasn't Greece a huge dictatorship post-WW2 and during the cold war? It's hard to cut down on already established government pension funds and cutting healthcare when so many of your citizens are already reliant on those systems.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Greece's immediate problems are their deficit and the euro, but their problems of unsustainable governance go back much, much further.
That said, I can't say I'm exactly an expert of the Greek economy so I should probably stop trying to debate it .
You are speaking of symptom not the disease. A govt. dependent society that feeds off it self without generating anything to keep up is the problem.Cybargs wrote:
Lowing its more than that. The problem was their government revenue (39% of GDP) is shit ton lower than their expenditure (49.5% of GDP). You can argue entitled and lazy all you want but that's a very very minor issue in any economic system.
They spend more than they take in, so where is it you think the problem lies if not the people not generating revenue for the govt to operate?
Yes, and you ignore my point that Greece =/= socialism as a whole. Just because the Greek's governance and economy has proved unsustainable does not mean that socialism as a whole is a failure, nor does it mean that it is a precursor to some sort of worldwide "socialist" collapse.lowing wrote:
You dance around what I said, but you refuse to just say it. Greece's problems stem from a large govt. dependency by the Greeks. They frown on the private sector yet rejoice over big fat govt. benefits. and when those benefits can no longer be sustained, they riot.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
While that may be true, that doesn't make the systems sustainable. The Greek government have been renowned for corruption and inefficiency and their debt has been over 100% of GDP for a decade now. They have also had relatively high unemployment and an economy fundamentally based on the public and tourism sectors so any crash was going to hit them hard.Cybargs wrote:
Wasn't Greece a huge dictatorship post-WW2 and during the cold war? It's hard to cut down on already established government pension funds and cutting healthcare when so many of your citizens are already reliant on those systems.
That said, I can't say I'm exactly an expert of the Greek economy so I should probably stop trying to debate it .
I didn't ignore that. I simply don't agree with it. Greece is in the for front of what is happening in Europe as a whole. The sustainability of the Europe's socialist agenda IS becoming increasingly harder to manage.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
Yes, and you ignore my point that Greece =/= socialism as a whole. Just because the Greek's governance and economy has proved unsustainable does not mean that socialism as a whole is a failure, nor does it mean that it is a precursor to some sort of worldwide "socialist" collapse.lowing wrote:
You dance around what I said, but you refuse to just say it. Greece's problems stem from a large govt. dependency by the Greeks. They frown on the private sector yet rejoice over big fat govt. benefits. and when those benefits can no longer be sustained, they riot.Little BaBy JESUS wrote:
While that may be true, that doesn't make the systems sustainable. The Greek government have been renowned for corruption and inefficiency and their debt has been over 100% of GDP for a decade now. They have also had relatively high unemployment and an economy fundamentally based on the public and tourism sectors so any crash was going to hit them hard.
That said, I can't say I'm exactly an expert of the Greek economy so I should probably stop trying to debate it .